Tuning Stones XXVl - A Player's Experience

Of course, this rack-rigging problem is going to happen forever until they get neutral rackers. Nobody can afford it, though.

In bowling, you don't rack your own pins. In pool, it should be a neutral racker.

Mike Zuglan is strict about his rules, but he has to be to make it fair for everyone. One thing about pool tournaments, you will never please everyone.

I personally believe they should have neutral rackers for all tournament games, and the breaker should not be allowed to request another rack. You get what you get, and that's it.
 
Clearly you don't have daughters or a mother....to be degrading women to the level you just did.

What he SAID in the meeting was "You dont want to come to me about this". What does that mean?

Anyway, regardless, I appreciate your comments.

It means he's going to be neutral. That you have to work it out with your opponent. Be a man.

You are butt hurt that he didn't spend time with you, handling your observations of his sucessful event. He should have told you to pound sand.
 
If you felt so abused by your opponent due to the racking why not call him or her out by name. What are you afraid of? You certainly had no problems calling out Mike Zuglan when you felt abused. Your the one that didn't call the ref in, what was Mike Zuglan suppose to do for you in the aftermath?
 
I can tell you what we do in arm wrestling, and it works out just fine.

You have a certain amount of tries or seconds to get the right grip (on both sides). If you can't agree on a grip (same as agreeing on a rack IMHO) then the 2 referees put you in a ref grip and if EITHER wrestler moves, the one who didn't move gets a foul or a loss.

If I was a casual fan new to the sport and sat to watch a Mike D or Donnie match, I'd leave and probably not come back.

We can all agree we can't afford to lose more spectators to our sport.
 
9ball

If your going to play 9 ball then one must accept they will be scammed in racking. Don't play 9 ball. No one plays this game for serious money anymore. I won't even watch tournaments due to the racking issues. I would rather watch paint dry.
 
If your going to play 9 ball then one must accept they will be scammed in racking. Don't play 9 ball. No one plays this game for serious money anymore. I won't even watch tournaments due to the racking issues. I would rather watch paint dry.
But yet you will read discussions about it?
 
No, Dechaine played veteran Ron Casanzio in Round 2.

The way the op refrained from using simple pronouns and went out of his way calling his opponent this player suggest to me he was playing a female and there were 2 female pros in the tournament n I've never heard of Karen Corr pulling a move or upsetting anyone so I think the player = J. B.

I could be wrong it just seemed weird how he was writing the player over n over instead of he/she/his/her
 
after countless hours of debate and talking to many close friends on the subject I have decided to write a review, if you will, of my experience having played in my first event in the Bi-Annual Turning Stones Classic Directed by Mr. Mike Zuglan. The following are my own personal thoughts, opinions, and various factoids about my experience.

First let me tell you, this venue is absolutely beautiful and the equipment is world class. The tournament is run very professionally from the way the players dress all the way to player introductions. I really have to take my hat off to Mr. Zuglan as THIS is clearly why his event has remained as successful as it has been for the amount of time it has been successful.

Mr. Zuglan held a very formal players meeting where he went over all the rules and was very blunt in his dislike for, what ill call. "racking issues". He indicated in the players meeting that if their are racking issues, you must call a referee over, but, and he noted with a sly grin, "you don't want us to get involved." Not sure what that meant as it seemed to be a bit of a mixed message.

I proceeded to play a fellow gentleman amateur at 10 PM that evening and the experience was wonderful. I was fortunate enough to win the match and move onto round 2 on the winner side. The gentleman I played was a class act and I believe that most of the players in that event are just like this gentleman...but not all are.

Round 2, I played a professional player who will remain nameless as what i'm about to write is based on opinion and my perception. Let me first say that I lost 9-2, 11 games of 9-ball, and the match took 2 hours and 15 minutes. Those who know pool, know that something is wrong with that time frame and those who know Mr. Zuglan's event can probably guess what was going on. RACKING ISSUES. This professional player continued to require that I rerack the balls to get "certain" balls to touch while offering that certain other balls did not NEED to touch. Well, we have all watched Racking Secrets and we all know what this player was doing. This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating. I believe that you are either striving for a tight rack or you are not. If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps. You should not be allowed to force a rerack simply based on the premise, "either I get a perfectly tight rack, or...I get the gaps that I want". As a result of this, we played 11 games in 2:15 minutes with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack. I lost, as probably I should have anyway, but I also had no fun playing the game either.

I decided to take my concerns to Mr Zuglan and let me tell you, this was not a pleasant conversation. I approached him from the standpoint of, "IN THE FUTURE, what can I do to ensure that this does not happen again?" He says call a ref. I said OK, then he proceeds to say, Im NOT using a magic rack and Im not going to "rack your own." I said, I see you have heard this complaint before. He proceeded to raise his voice at me, talk down to me, and ultimately turn his back on me and walk away.

I do not actually know why Mr. Zuglan refuses to address an issue that the majority of his players and even viewers dislike. I do not know why he is not more proactive in policing the racking issues he claims to distain. I do not know why when I approached him, he treated me like I was the perpetrator and not the victim. After all, he did say that "you don't want to have to come to us" in the player meeting. I do know that the only power I have to potentially create change is to communicate to anyone who might choose to read this, and to personally choose to NEVER play in or watch a Mike Zuglan event again. At the end of the day, that is the only power us individuals possess to affect change.

Im absolutely positive that his event will continue for another 26 years. He wont miss me, as I wont miss his events either, but I have atleast said my piece and warned those who I could about what takes place at these events when playing some of these pros and what will happen when you approach the tournament director about these issues.

I appreciate everyone's time who chose to read this.
Thank you

Did you call a ref? I saw a match on the stream where I think it was Karen who got tired and just called a ref to rack.

I had to leave before the finals - who won between Shaw and Karen?
 
Did you call a ref? I saw a match on the stream where I think it was Karen who got tired and just called a ref to rack.

I had to leave before the finals - who won between Shaw and Karen?

Shaw won the hot seat match against Karen, then beat her again in the finals.

Very strong showing for Karen......... :thumbup:
 
This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating.
Why? Why should the breaker accept an imperfect rack that puts him at a disadvantage?

If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps.
Again, why? If the racker allows a gap, then what is the problem if the breaker accepts that gap?
 
If you felt so abused by your opponent due to the racking why not call him or her out by name. What are you afraid of? You certainly had no problems calling out Mike Zuglan when you felt abused. Your the one that didn't call the ref in, what was Mike Zuglan suppose to do for you in the aftermath?

Essentially, Mike only needed to say "call a ref"...politely. as I was being polite to him. I approached him because just to find out what to do NEXT time. He indicated that players might have to pay for a racker ($50 a pop could get expensive, which means the guy with the most money wins that argument) he also said that "you dont want to get me involved? what does that mean??? could I be disqualified for complaining? I went to him to get clarification on these points and he dismissed me. Why? Because he can. He has no issues getting players, but, in the world of right and wrong...that does NOT make it right.

On the issue of this pro player....I can NOT be positive this player had mal-intent. That is why I wont call this player out.

What was he supposed to do? Treat me like a human and explain to me his mixed messages in the meeting. I didnt want him to make us play the match over again.
 
Essentially, Mike only needed to say "call a ref"...politely. as I was being polite to him. I approached him because just to find out what to do NEXT time. He indicated that players might have to pay for a racker ($50 a pop could get expensive, which means the guy with the most money wins that argument) he also said that "you dont want to get me involved? what does that mean??? could I be disqualified for complaining? I went to him to get clarification on these points and he dismissed me. Why? Because he can. He has no issues getting players, but, in the world of right and wrong...that does NOT make it right.

On the issue of this pro player....I can NOT be positive this player had mal-intent. That is why I wont call this player out.

What was he supposed to do? Treat me like a human and explain to me his mixed messages in the meeting. I didnt want him to make us play the match over again.

All in all, did you enjoy the Turning Stone tournament experience? I love that place! :D
 
Why? Why should the breaker accept an imperfect rack that puts him at a disadvantage?


Again, why? If the racker allows a gap, then what is the problem if the breaker accepts that gap?

Which is EXACTLY the problem If gaps occur at random they should be accepted. We can not gauge intend on these racks. unless you can read minds. My opponent specificlly said I could leave the 1 ball only frozen to 1 ball...thus creating the potential for the 4 ball track and the wing ball flying in. I dont want to leave the back two not touching the row of three because then the 9 can fly in the corners and my opponent wanted the back two frozen together between each other. So all these requirements essentially required a perfectly tight rack and it was a nightmare.
 
Which is EXACTLY the problem If gaps occur at random they should be accepted. We can not gauge intend on these racks. unless you can read minds. My opponent specificlly said I could leave the 1 ball only frozen to 1 ball...thus creating the potential for the 4 ball track and the wing ball flying in. I dont want to leave the back two not touching the row of three because then the 9 can fly in the corners and my opponent wanted the back two frozen together between each other. So all these requirements essentially required a perfectly tight rack and it was a nightmare.

Maybe playing in the big leagues just isn't for you. Perhaps frisbee golf?
 
I haven't played the Turning Stone event before but the names do not change with respect to racking issues. Mike, Earl and several others are a big problem. They bring pool to a lower level with their constant bickering over racks and other non issues. If I were a tournament director, I would go to those two and spell it out very clearly that any disrespect to opponents, refs and or spectators might disqualify them from playing. That hasn't been done enough over the years to gain control of events and needs to be in place so that pool can gain some semblance of etiquette.
 
Simple solution to this problem is to use one of the many rack templates out there. But the guy who directs it for some reason doesn't want to. Oh well.

And as for whoever said it in the topic earlier, kind of hard to stop playing 9 ball when it's basically the dominant game right now. Personally, they should just make 9 ball a call pocket game because as much as I like it, I do not see 10 ball overtaking it anytime soon.
 
I haven't played the Turning Stone event before but the names do not change with respect to racking issues. Mike, Earl and several others are a big problem. They bring pool to a lower level with their constant bickering over racks and other non issues. If I were a tournament director, I would go to those two and spell it out very clearly that any disrespect to opponents, refs and or spectators might disqualify them from playing. That hasn't been done enough over the years to gain control of events and needs to be in place so that pool can gain some semblance of etiquette.

Very good point and Ill take it a bit further. Since he knows WHO they are, why not be more proactive in policing these players? Seems like a pretty easy fix, everyone wins except these pro players who like to cry about the rack.
 
Shaw won the hot seat match against Karen, then beat her again in the finals.

Very strong showing for Karen......... :thumbup:

Thanks and I agree - Karen is the definition of a professional who handles herself with class and approaches the game as a serious pro.
 
Back
Top