Twisting banks

[lewdo26]

There has been a thread started in Keith's forum about twisting banks. I posted a question to Keith and I thought it'd be interesting to hear from other forum members as well. My question was: I heard a few times that the best bankers in the world do it with inside english to stiffen the path of the object ball. Is that so? And if so, can anyone name a few of the greatest bankers in the game that do that sort of thing?
Thanks.

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

John Brumback made that remark to me several years ago at Derby City, that you weren't really playing banks until you were twisting the balls off of the rails. What he told me was that a banks player should be able to masse an object ball around an intervening ball after striking the rail. Put enough spin on the ball and he says it will spin off the rail in an arc. Other bankers have supported this statement. I have never seen it done, but I don't watch that many banks games, mostly 9-Ball.

 

[pete lafond]

One thing I found is when banking, which I generally opt not to, is to use the english and speed to the advantage of cue ball position. Right or wrong, and I welcome anyone to correct me, the following is purely my experience. If exacting position is not important, e.g banking 9 ball or next shot is a hanger, here are my rules;
The narrower the bank, the more likely I'll place inside english. If a double kiss is likely, then I cut the ball more and place a much firmer (harder) stroke to dig into the rail. The object ball actually hooks a little which seems to makes the pocket slightly bigger. On side pockets I can hit the tit a little and the ball will still enter if it has speed and has a more perpendicular path. Targeting corner pockets, the ball tends to skid better of the rails with a firm stroke (Not real hard) using inside english.
The less narrow the bank, the softer I stroke and the more outside english I use. This provides me with a better feel as I can align the ball just as if I were banking the cue ball alone.
I'm interested in anyone else’s thoughts and experiences.

 

[Bob Jewett]

lewdo26,

Find a copy of May 2004 Billiard Digest. Page 54 "Piggy's Principles Banking"
...

(That post is now gone, but I'll comment on the referenced article anyway.)
Unfortunately, the comment in that article about "inside' and "outside" english is just plain wrong. Whether outside english shortens or lengthens the bank depends on which way the cue ball is travelling. For example, if the cue ball is crossing the path of the banked ball, outside will shorten the bank, while if the cue ball will not cross the banked ball's path, outside will lengthen the bank. That part should have been written in terms of english transferred to the object ball and how to get the correct transferred spin.

And as I pointed out in a later BD article, it is not speed alone that makes a ball bank shorter, but rather lack of follow. In fact on some tables, hitting a banked ball harder makes it bank longer. Many people don't believe this.

As for using side spin on banks, Eddie Taylor banks pretty well, and can twist banks with the best of them, but his advice is to avoid side spin. On the other hand, I think there are lots of situations at one pocket that require side spin on banks either for position/safe or to avoid kisses.

 

[pete lafond]

In fact on some tables, hitting a banked ball harder makes it bank longer. Many people don't believe this..

Crossing the path of the object ball was not considered in my comment. Thats a paragraph or two in itself. But your comment about hitting a ball harder causes a longer bank at times. Can you explain the physics of this one. (I'm not talking about more than one rail, just a single rail bank.) I am very interested in learning how this can occur..

 

[Rod]

Crossing the path of the object ball was not considered in my comment. Thats a paragraph or two in itself. But your comment about hitting a ball harder causes a longer bank at times. Can you explain the physics of this one. (I'm not talking about more than one rail, just a single rail bank.) I am very interested in learning how this can occur..

I'd be interested as well. The disclaimer is some tables. I have played on new cloth with soft (read poor) cushions that I could swear had this effect. I never tested the exact angles. It's more the exception than the rule?

Rod

 

[mark tadd]

(That post is now gone, but I'll comment on the referenced article anyway.)
Unfortunately, the comment in that article about "inside' and "outside" english is just plain wrong. Whether outside english shortens or lengthens the bank depends on which way the cue ball is travelling. For example, if the cue ball is crossing the path of the banked ball, outside will shorten the bank, while if the cue ball will not cross the banked ball's path, outside will lengthen the bank. That part should have been written in terms of english transferred to the object ball and how to get the correct transferred spin.

And as I pointed out in a later BD article, it is not speed alone that makes a ball bank shorter, but rather lack of follow. In fact on some tables, hitting a banked ball harder makes it bank longer. Many people don't believe this.

As for using side spin on banks, Eddie Taylor banks pretty well, and can twist banks with the best of them, but his advice is to avoid side spin. On the other hand, I think there are lots of situations at one pocket that require side spin on banks either for position/safe or to avoid kisses.

avoid side spin????????? but i used to bank pretty good and still can if i practice. using a little side spin more or less is easier to guide the ball in than no side spin. for the most part you are not going to always have straight in banks. i dont and didnt know any great bankers that rarely used side english but wrather no english. i cant agree with that . there wasnt anyone i wouldt play banks when i was playing. and didnt get many if any offers. so i must had been doing something right. its is very hard to use staight english bottom, top , middle to consistanly make off angle banks that are not straight in and your cue ball will roll farther also getting away from you more. the best way is to learn how to use side english to twist or guide balls in you will be a better banker doesnt mean you go extreme just enough and what ever it takes. imo

 

[CaptainJR]

I didn't know I had twisted banks until my teacher complimented about it. I guess I do it right!

 

[Rickw]

I watched the DCC tournament last year on my pc and listened to Shannon talking about banks. He was saying that most bank specialists don't use much english because it's just adding another variable. They bank the ball relatively hard with very little or no english so they can become consistent with their shots.

I play 1h and use english on many of my banks because I'm trying to control whitey or I'm just lagging over to my hole. Besides that, I'm back cutting a ball back to the corner pocket while a bank player would be banking that ball into the side pocket. Different games and they require different strategies.

I watched Tony Chohan playing 1h the other day and he banked a ball cross corner at about 90 mph! Both the cb and the ob went airborne. He made the ball right in the heart almost in mid-flight! He didn't use any english either. That's what I call confidence!

 

[pete lafond]

I watched the DCC tournament last year on my pc and listened to Shannon talking about banks. He was saying that most bank specialists don't use much english because it's just adding another variable. They bank the ball relatively hard with very little or no english so they can become consistent with their shots.

I play 1h and use english on many of my banks because I'm trying to control whitey or I'm just lagging over to my hole. Besides that, I'm back cutting a ball back to the corner pocket while a bank player would be banking that ball into the side pocket. Different games and they require different strategies.

I watched Tony Chohan playing 1h the other day and he banked a ball cross corner at about 90 mph! Both the cb and the ob went airborne. He made the ball right in the heart almost in mid-flight! He didn't use any english either. That's what I call confidence!

I think thats great, not using english. Especially if getting position on the next shot does not matter or is natural. On the other hand I find that knowing the effects of english when banking is a clear advantage. And even more so having the confidence of expected results. And by all means and I mean no matter how good you are - banks are a lower percentage shot - hands down.

 

[sjm]

As for using side spin on banks, Eddie Taylor banks pretty well, and can twist banks with the best of them, but his advice is to avoid side spin. On the other hand, I think there are lots of situations at one pocket that require side spin on banks either for position/safe or to avoid kisses.

Absolutely right, Bob. Tony Robles often relates the story of when he met Eddie. Tony asked him whether english should be used on bank shots. Taylor's answer was "unless you need it to beat a kiss or play position, english should not be used on any bank shots." Even though he's probably the greatest bank pool player ever, though, that doesn't make Eddie right. It does, however, establish that bank pool can be played at the highest level with english used only sparingly.

 

[mark tadd]

I watched the DCC tournament last year on my pc and listened to Shannon talking about banks. He was saying that most bank specialists don't use much english because it's just adding another variable. They bank the ball relatively hard with very little or no english so they can become consistent with their shots.

I play 1h and use english on many of my banks because I'm trying to control whitey or I'm just lagging over to my hole. Besides that, I'm back cutting a ball back to the corner pocket while a bank player would be banking that ball into the side pocket. Different games and they require different strategies.

I watched Tony Chohan playing 1h the other day and he banked a ball cross corner at about 90 mph! Both the cb and the ob went airborne. He made the ball right in the heart almost in mid-flight! He didn't use any english either. That's what I call confidence!

i dissagree with these last three posts. though i never met eddie taylor i will play any player right now out of stroke if he uses no english. set up a challenge match tell me when and where and he may get a spot meaning he can hit the cue anywhere except on the side. bottom middle top antwhere but side english. but if he is playing safe i will allow him to use any english he chooses.

 

[mark tadd]

I watched the DCC tournament last year on my pc and listened to Shannon talking about banks. He was saying that most bank specialists don't use much english because it's just adding another variable. They bank the ball relatively hard with very little or no english so they can become consistent with their shots.

I play 1h and use english on many of my banks because I'm trying to control whitey or I'm just lagging over to my hole. Besides that, I'm back cutting a ball back to the corner pocket while a bank player would be banking that ball into the side pocket. Different games and they require different strategies.

I watched Tony Chohan playing 1h the other day and he banked a ball cross corner at about 90 mph! Both the cb and the ob went airborne. He made the ball right in the heart almost in mid-flight! He didn't use any english either. That's what I call confidence!

plus shannon is a pure straight shooter so he naturaly will shoot all shots close to center and be pretty acurate the problem is if he is playing me i will not leave him many straight in banks long or short.

 

[mark tadd]

Absolutely right, Bob. Tony Robles often relates the story of when he met Eddie. Tony asked him whether english should be used on bank shots. Taylor's answer was "unless you need it to beat a kiss or play position, english should not be used on any bank shots." Even though he's probably the greatest bank pool player ever, though, that doesn't make Eddie right. It does, however, establish that bank pool can be played at the highest level with english used only sparingly.

i grew up in slc with a guy that played good banks and he knew all the old bank pool players. and he used to play with them all . i was 18 he was 39. he grew up on the east coast and said all the great back pool players used a lot of side english when they banked and fired them in at warp speed alot . when he got playing he played exelent banks. we would play alot cause 9 ball was no contest. but ofcourse i saw i learned the banks was no contest either. the called him banking bob . some of you may know him. real name bob anderson black guy tall about 6-4 real nice guy. he moved to atlanta awile back ago and i havent seen him since.

 

[sjm]

...said all the great bank pool players used a lot of side english when they banked and fired them in at warp speed alot...

Bugs Rucker, whom I last saw play bank pool in the late 70's, did it that way, too. It was amazing to watch.

 

[mark tadd]

Bugs Rucker, whom I last saw play bank pool in the late 70's, did it that way, too. It was amazing to watch.

exactly my point and he was at one time and mabey still is in the minds of some the greatest banker ever

 

[lewdo26]

What about inside?

No one has yet said anything about banking with inside english. In other words, transfering reverse spin to the object ball. Cutting it more and straightening it with inside. I'd imagine that way you wouldn't have to go three rails back to the center of the table on cross-sides all the time. Did any of the great bank pool players do that, or was it a myth that I heard through the grapevine?

 

[mark tadd]

No one has yet said anything about banking with inside english. In other words, transfering reverse spin to the object ball. Cutting it more and straightening it with inside. I'd imagine that way you wouldn't have to go three rails back to the center of the table on cross-sides all the time. Did any of the great bank pool players do that, or was it a myth that I heard through the grapevine?

their are some cross sides as well as cross corners that require you to put inside english on or if you try to make it without it you will double kiss it or it will go long and cannot go