Two-Foul 9 Ball

[CJ Wiley]

He wanted to be about to "re roll out" to avoid me completely out maneuvering him.

To ME, this is the ONLY "sensible" way to play.

Player 1 doesn't like shot for whatever reason. Pushes. Receives foul # 1.
Player 2 has 2 options: 1) shoot or 2) repush.
-- Decides to shoot and makse a good hit. Player 1's foul is erased.
-- Decides to "repush". Now Player 2 is on foul #1 and Player 1 has the same options...shoot at the repush or make Player 2 shoot again. on a re push both players are on 1 foul...this is important.


What is the problem with this?

.

The ones that wanted to play "two fouls by the same player" were the weaker players, or if there was a proposition game being played.

I played {one of} the best one handed player in the United States and he insisted on playing me "two fouls by the same person" because I could roll out to "jump shots" or to shots "jacked up" over balls. He wanted to be about to "re roll out" to avoid me completely out maneuvering him.

I still beat him giving him the 5/7 and the break, but I wasn't supposed to. I rolled out to a lot of jump shots and made him re roll out......the problem was it put him at a disadvantage because I'm difficult to "push out" to......so he got rattled and lost. I knew if he got his head straight I couldn't win at this game so I didn't go back and he later beat another champion caliber player out of over $11,000 playing the same game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

you would not have to kick at a ball playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out'

The only problem is if player 2 re-pushes, player 1 has to be reset to 0 fouls. The reason, and I've seen it happen, is that player 1 still being on 1 foul passes back the shot to player 2 on the re-push. Player 2 buries the cue ball on a legal hit and player 1 is kicking like one foul BIH.

Richiebalto said this in his post and I agree.

Best,
Mike

Yes, we all agree, you would not have to kick at a ball playing 'Two Shot Shoot Out' unless you wanted to. This game is about control and skill....."kicking" is not a part of it.

Sometimes you have to roll out to a "kick," although it will usually happen when the ball is very close to the pocket or it's an easy "safe kick". This doesn't happen often.

 

[gregcantrall]

Snip...... This game is about control and skill....."kicking" is not a part of it.
More snip.........

Tell Efren that "kicking" is not about 'control and skill'. Still LAUGHING OUT LOUD.......Auhhhhh, you must not have meant that the way I read it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Efren wouldn't bet even money on any kick that's not close to the pocket.

Tell Efren that "kicking" is not about 'control and skill'. Still LAUGHING OUT LOUD.......Auhhhhh, you must not have meant that the way I read it.

When Efren kicks at a ball he's trying to hit a certain side of the object ball with a speed to usually get one of the balls to the end rail and/or "hook" his opponent.....this pattern comes up most of the time.

As far as kicking balls in, even Efren wouldn't bet even money on a kick that's not close to the pocket. Kicking has a definite "luck element" to it......and like anything else "consistent luck is a skill"......it's just in another category (closer to billiards) that is rarely entertaining (unless a shot is lucked in).

'Two Shot Shoot Out' doesn't have the "kicking" element, and when you see how it's played you'll understand why.....although maybe Efren would roll out to kick shots - I doubt if he does this very often.

 

[elvicash]

Well whatever rules you guys play by, I'll just say that having the option to push after a push is stupid. I'll gladly play whatever two foul rules don't involve that option.

CJ this is not part of 2 shot is it, if someone pushes can the other player just push somewhere else is the cue ball on a fould next player has to get a hit. Not sure I understand but I dont think you can push to answer a push

 

[CJ Wiley]

We normally played "any two fouls" which meant you could not "re push"

CJ this is not part of 2 shot is it, if someone pushes can the other player just push somewhere else is the cue ball on a fould next player has to get a hit. Not sure I understand but I dont think you can push to answer a push

You can if you're playing "two fouls by the same player" - if you push out and your opponent "re" pushes out then both of you are on "1 foul" and you have the option to shoot or make them shoot.

We normally played "any two fouls" which meant you could not "re push" without giving your opponent ball-in-hand....this is the way I prefered to play the game.

 

[gregcantrall]

Snip....

'Two Shot Shoot Out' doesn't have the "kicking" element, and when you see how it's played you'll understand why...

When I see how it is played?????????? Buwahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, you made me tell an old man story.........never mind, it would just bore you.

Can't help myself( I am drinking). Late 80's, White Spot in Fife, WA. Wednesday night $5 race to 3 nine ball. Toughest field in the northwest. Playing the guy that busted Cole Dickson at Harry's place. Tied 2-2. I am shooting after the break(roll out after the break). The 5-9 is wired on the end rail about a diamond and half out of the pocket. The one is near the opposite side rail about the second diamond. I have no shot on the one and must roll out. So....I want to roll to a kick bank on this wired 5-9 but it is just too obvious. I tried to roll to a kick that would require just enough special sauce that he would give it back to me. I blew it and rolled to the dead kick bank. I was disgusted and showed it. He thought I was disgusted because it was hooked and told me to shoot again without even looking closely at the shot.......BINGO. He spent the rest of the night telling everyone how he got beat by a lucky shot by a no shooting &%$#@.

I have played the game, would prefer the game but have always tried to hone my skills at what ever game I could make money at.

"One final thing - I asked Earl about Efren Reyes during our conversation and he said that Efren has, hands down, THE best instincts at the pool table of anyone he has ever played or seen played. Like a 'forward vision' thing..."

So maybe when Earl says "Instincts", that is what you refer to as hitting the ball on the "right side"?

To quote an old friend, "Call it what you will, I call it skill!"

 

[CJ Wiley]

although unintentional, it was still effective, and you "won the pot"

When I see how it is played?????????? Buwahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, you made me tell an old man story.........never mind, it would just bore you.

Can't help myself( I am drinking). Late 80's, White Spot in Fife, WA. Wednesday night $5 race to 3 nine ball. Toughest field in the northwest. Playing the guy that busted Cole Dickson at Harry's place. Tied 2-2. I am shooting after the break(roll out after the break). The 5-9 is wired on the end rail about a diamond and half out of the pocket. The one is near the opposite side rail about the second diamond. I have no shot on the one and must roll out. So....I want to roll to a kick bank on this wired 5-9 but it is just too obvious. I tried to roll to a kick that would require just enough special sauce that he would give it back to me. I blew it and rolled to the dead kick bank. I was disgusted and showed it. He thought I was disgusted because it was hooked and told me to shoot again without even looking closely at the shot.......BINGO. He spent the rest of the night telling everyone how he got beat by a lucky shot by a no shooting &%$#@.

I have played the game, would prefer the game but have always tried to hone my skills at what ever game I could make money at.





So maybe when Earl says "Instincts", that is what you refer to as hitting the ball on the "right side"?

Efren does have incredible table instincts, and it's mostly from playing "One Rail Billiards" and Carom Billiards. These games bring about a whole new "mental dimension" in someone's game, and Efren plays "One Rail" better than anyone (this is also the main reason he "kicks" so well.

I like the story and the main reason it's so good is because of the "bluff" that you were able to pull off.....although unintentional, it was still effective, and you "won the pot". Well played, Sir!....well played indeed!

 

[Old Nine Baller]

The ones that wanted to play "two fouls by the same player" were the weaker players, or if there was a proposition game being played.I have stated several times in this thread that only "weak" players or suckers wanted to play "two by the same player". I guess it means more to them coming from you.

CJ this is not part of 2 shot is it, if someone pushes can the other player just push somewhere else is the cue ball on a fould next player has to get a hit. Not sure I understand but I dont think you can push to answer a push

You can if you're playing "two fouls by the same player" - if you push out and your opponent "re" pushes out then both of you are on "1 foul" and you have the option to shoot or make them shoot.

We normally played "any two fouls" which meant you could not "re push" without giving your opponent ball-in-hand....this is the way I prefered to play the game.

I'm really confused now. You say "weak" players wanted to play "two by the same player" but in the "Proposed TAR-TOI vs NO AIMING SYSTEM" thread you said:

Absolutely, this is correct, if your opponent pushes to a shot you don't like you can re roll out to a another shot, then you're both on "one foul" (then and only then is it like "one foul").

Then if the next shooter commits ANY foul it's BALL IN HAND, (like "one foul" at that point).

Back in the 80s this in the ONLY way we played and it was extremely strategic....again, when this game is played correctly it consistently requires more difficult shots than one pocket because you are defending ONE ball against SIX pockets all the time.....so it requires a player to be completely well rounded in banking, cutting, long shots, shots off the end rail, safeties, "two way shots", etc.

This Game is the Teacher

So which is it? Are you a "weak" player who wished to play "two by the same player" as you stated or were you an "any-two" player...or do you even really know the difference?

That's the problem with taking so many different positions, you can't remember your last one. You just figure that nobody will notice since they never question your word.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

CJ this is not part of 2 shot is it, if someone pushes can the other player just push somewhere else is the cue ball on a fould next player has to get a hit. Not sure I understand but I dont think you can push to answer a push

Maybe if you read the thread you would understand there are at least 3 ways of playing "two-foul" 9 Ball.

ONB

 

[Mikjary]

When Efren kicks at a ball he's trying to hit a certain side of the object ball with a speed to usually get one of the balls to the end rail and/or "hook" his opponent.....this pattern comes up most of the time.

As far as kicking balls in, even Efren wouldn't bet even money on a kick that's not close to the pocket. Kicking has a definite "luck element" to it......and like anything else "consistent luck is a skill"......it's just in another category (closer to billiards) that is rarely entertaining (unless a shot is lucked in).

'Two Shot Shoot Out' doesn't have the "kicking" element, and when you see how it's played you'll understand why.....although maybe Efren would roll out to kick shots - I doubt if he does this very often.

Usually I rolled to a jump instead of a kick. Unless of course you were playing Dave Yeager who could prolly run a rack by jumping every ball and get pos. Kicking gets dicey unless you're grinding. The slow motion treatment has done in many an anxious player. :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

Maybe it helps when you're 6'5" and have to shoot down on everything.

Usually I rolled to a jump instead of a kick. Unless of course you were playing Dave Yeager who could prolly run a rack by jumping every ball and get pos. Kicking gets dicey unless you're grinding. The slow motion treatment has done in many an anxious player. :grin:

Best,
Mike

Dave Yeager could really play on that bar table, and yes, his jumping abilities were superb. Maybe it helps when you're 6'5" and have to shoot down on everything.

The part in one foul where the player is not trying to break out clusters, but instead playing shape to "lock up" the opponent is lame.....and I will bet NO ONE that's a casual viewer want to see it.....as a matter of fact they may cop a very negative attitude if they see some of these "ducking" scenarios.

In Shoot Out the player is forced to try to run out no matter what.....playing a safe is just delaying the inevitable. Plain and simple, if a player can't make the shots they can't win and that's "the difference that makes the difference" between dull and exciting.

 

[CJ Wiley]

No reason to be confused, it's quite clear to those that "have eyes that can see".

I'm really confused now. You say "weak" players wanted to play "two by the same player" but in the "Proposed TAR-TOI vs NO AIMING SYSTEM" thread you said:



So which is it? Are you a "weak" player who wished to play "two by the same player" as you stated or were you an "any-two" player...or do you even really know the difference?

That's the problem with taking so many different positions, you can't remember your last one. You just figure that nobody will notice since they never question your word.

ONB

The ones that wanted to play "two fouls by the same player" were the weaker players, or if there was a proposition game being played.

I played {one of} the best one handed player in the United States and he insisted on playing me "two fouls by the same person" because I could roll out to "jump shots" or to shots "jacked up" over balls. He wanted to be about to "re roll out" to avoid me completely out maneuvering him.

I still beat him giving him the 5/7 and the break, but I wasn't supposed to. I rolled out to a lot of jump shots and made him re roll out......the problem was it put him at a disadvantage because I'm difficult to "push out" to......so he got rattled and lost. I knew if he got his head straight I couldn't win at this game so I didn't go back and he later beat another champion caliber player out of over $11,000 playing the same game. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvicash View Post
CJ this is not part of 2 shot is it, if someone pushes can the other player just push somewhere else is the cue ball on a fould next player has to get a hit. Not sure I understand but I dont think you can push to answer a push
You can if you're playing "two fouls by the same player" - if you push out and your opponent "re" pushes out then both of you are on "1 foul" and you have the option to shoot or make them shoot.

We normally played "any two fouls" which meant you could not "re push" without giving your opponent ball-in-hand....this is the way I prefered to play the game.

No reason to be confused, it's quite clear to those that "have eyes that can see".

In the context of "proposition games" there's always the hidden agenda that one player is hustling another.....in the context of this thread it appears you are hustling yourself.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

No reason to be confused.

In the context of "proposition games" there's always the hidden agenda that one player is hustling another.....in the context of this thread it appears you are hustling yourself.

I'm not really confused, I was kidding.

I do wonder why you say that "two by the same player" was the only way you played in the 80's but now that I've started this thread you are claiming that "any two" is the way you liked best. I guess you just change the facts to fit your current situation.

In my own experience, only weak players & suckers even wanted to play "two by the same player" , as I've stated previous. Obviously there are regional differences as some in this thread have stated they played that way only.

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

there was an advantage to knowing which game suited different proposition bets, etc

I'm not really confused, I was kidding.

I do wonder why you say that "two by the same player" was the only way you played in the 80's but now that I've started this thread you are claiming that "any two" is the way you liked best. I guess you just change the facts to fit your current situation.

In my own experience, only weak players & suckers even wanted to play "two by the same player" , as I've stated previous. Obviously there are regional differences as some in this thread have stated they played that way only.

ONB

People played both ways and before every match we'd ask "Two fouls by the same person, or any two fouls?"

When playing someone with the "crutch," opposite handed," or one handed it was best to play "2 Fouls by the Same Person".....this would allow the "re roll out" to protect against "unfair" push outs over balls, on the rail, or to "jump shots".

These type rules only benefited players with weaknesses, and the true "Road Warriors" had rare weaknesses.....it was our business to win and "weaknesses don't win," strengths do.

I've ask this question literally hundreds of times and always tried to steer the opponent to play "any two fouls".......when you bank, jump, cut and connect long shots equally well you don't want your opponent to have the chance to "re roll out".....it gives them a chance to "duck" your offense and play safe.....this just delays their inevitable defeat.

When I was getting weight from a top player that didn't know me I'd make them play "two fouls by the same person".....this way I could disguise my playing speed longer and often times they would never figure it out.

When someone knows these rules really well they can toy with even the greatest players.... this takes thousands of hours of training. "One Foul" is much more difficult to "stall" because the game is so simple and there's very little strategic qualities to help disguise playing levels....and there's many more "luck factors" as well.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played several ways and there was an advantage to knowing which game suited different proposition bets, skill levels, and strengths/weaknesses.

I'm writing a book on the subject called 'Two Shot Shoot Out for Dummies' - coming to a Barnes & Noble near you. :wink:

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

Now I'm confused. I played push out in the 60's and 70's ( nobody I saw ever gambled at 1 foul ) and jumping was not allowed in the rules of any game. I quit in 1979 when I tore a disk. Dont know when jumping was allowed ( terrible rule, like cleaning the balls during a game! ), but when I started playing in 1988, 1 foul was in, jumping was in, and pushout was out. Sad state of affairs.
In the words of Freddy Boggs, said to his opponent during a 1 pocket game where the opponent was on 2 fouls and said he didnt play 3 fouls, " If you change the rules enough, pool can become ping-pong" ! Thanks Freddy, I've used your line many times...lol

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Lil Earl" Strickland wasn't the first to jump, but he was the best at it.

Now I'm confused. I played push out in the 60's and 70's ( nobody I saw ever gambled at 1 foul ) and jumping was not allowed in the rules of any game. I quit in 1979 when I tore a disk. Dont know when jumping was allowed ( terrible rule, like cleaning the balls during a game! ), but when I started playing in 1988, 1 foul was in, jumping was in, and pushout was out. Sad state of affairs.
In the words of Freddy Boggs, said to his opponent during a 1 pocket game where the opponent was on 2 fouls and said he didnt play 3 fouls, " If you change the rules enough, pool can become ping-pong" ! Thanks Freddy, I've used your line many times...lol

Jumping was always legal, just not too many people could do it well in the 80s. "Lil Earl" Strickland wasn't the first to jump, but he was the best at it. I heard about how he did it and practiced until I was nearly as good (Earl could always jump better with a Meucci).

One Foul was the tournament rules to speed up play, but they were always looked down on by the gamblers. As "One Foul" took over through TV exposure it filtered out "Shoot Out" and gambling at 9 Ball......we never saw it coming until it was too late!

One foul 9 Ball is not a good gambling game...as a matter of fact it's a terrible gambling game, but the players seem to think they have no other choice. 'Two Shot Shoot Out' must be brought back or one foul will continue to dilute the game down into nothing.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Chip Roberson]

Billy Ray was the first I ever saw that jumped the balls and he did it pretty dang good--Eddie O'Connell and I picked him up down in SC and headed over to Spartenburg--1980 I'm thining and Billy matched up with Pete Horn--Billy made a push behind a ball from the object ball--Pete declined and Billy jumped the ball and was out--and out and out some more, He hide the jump to some extent, but played upon it when needed ,Pete played good too,but Billy traped alot of good players over the years.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

People played both ways and before every match we'd ask "Two fouls by the same person, or any two fouls?"

When playing someone with the "crutch," opposite handed," or one handed it was best to play "2 Fouls by the Same Person".....this would allow the "re roll out" to protect against "unfair" push outs over balls, on the rail, or to "jump shots".

These type rules only benefited players with weaknesses, and the true "Road Warriors" had rare weaknesses.....it was our business to win and "weaknesses don't win," strengths do.

I've ask this question literally hundreds of times and always tried to steer the opponent to play "any two fouls".......when you bank, jump, cut and connect long shots equally well you don't want your opponent to have the chance to "re roll out".....it gives them a chance to "duck" your offense and play safe.....this just delays their inevitable defeat.

When I was getting weight from a top player that didn't know me I'd make them play "two fouls by the same person".....this way I could disguise my playing speed longer and often times they would never figure it out.

When someone knows these rules really well they can toy with even the greatest players.... this takes thousands of hours of training. "One Foul" is much more difficult to "stall" because the game is so simple and there's very little strategic qualities to help disguise playing levels....and there's many more "luck factors" as well.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played several ways and there was an advantage to knowing which game suited different proposition bets, skill levels, and strengths/weaknesses.

I'm writing a book on the subject called 'Two Shot Shoot Out for Dummies' - coming to a Barnes & Noble near you. :wink:

You said that "Two By The Same Player" was the only way you played in the 80's. I took you at your word and responded. Now I know what your word is worth.

P.S. There's no doubt in my mind that you are the perfect author for the book, given it's subject matter & intended audience.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Now I'm confused. I played push out in the 60's and 70's ( nobody I saw ever gambled at 1 foul ) and jumping was not allowed in the rules of any game. I quit in 1979 when I tore a disk. Dont know when jumping was allowed ( terrible rule, like cleaning the balls during a game! ), but when I started playing in 1988, 1 foul was in, jumping was in, and pushout was out. Sad state of affairs.

In my experience jumping balls was only prohibited in Snooker and still is.

Many players could jump balls but when playing Two-Foul 9 Ball it wasn't too intelligent a thing to do so it didn't happen often. Usually only when a guy pushed-out poorly and was made to shoot-again. It didn't happen much but it did happen.

ONB