Two Foul 9-Ball

Both sets of rule have their likes, dislikes, advantages and disadvantages.

I also "grew up" with two foul. It was a longer game, but lot's of fun.
As long as I knew the rules I didn't care what they were.

With the advent of all the new 9-Ball tournaments and the Texas Express 9-Ball Tour, something had to change. Longer races that take a shorter length of time to play equals more players in the fields. That is very attractive to the host room owner for a tour stop. The TD can finally post times on the charts and the rules are fair, what a neat deal.

If either of the two formats exposes a weakness in our game, then work on the weakness, not the rules........randyg CO-Author..Texas Express
 
2 shot out

is what I knew it as, having lived in Houston for awhile. It favored the best shot makers, but also the mentally smarter player. Weaker players were more rapidly exposed in watching 2 players match up and play. That is not so much the case with '1 shot out'.

Back in the days, when an opponent rolled out on a shot, and you were trying to figure out every possible move and out he might have planned, and perhaps turned it back to him, only to have him play a safety on you, and hook you. It was much more 'Chess' like in its approach than the 'Load and go' style of 1 shot out, or 1 foul, ball in hand TE rules.

Would I like it today, for the most part, yes, because I have more knowledge than most the players I play, and I could control the match better...... LOL

And as far as jump cues - They just force you to play your safeties with more precision, so your opponent can not jump the ball. And I can kick with the best of them, and have received many compliments of my kicks when I have been 'locked up'.

As the game changes, so do players have to change. To be an excellent player, you have to be good at EVERYTHING, and some players just fall short of that in an area or two.
 
Neil said:
I totally agree with you. I also am a good kicker. But what really gets me is constantly having to kick or jump because my oponent misses ducks and just turns the cueball loose and gets lucky. It happens enough to me that I have seriously considered either quitting altogether, or just playing by myself. Just as some people are known to be lucky, their is another side to that coin too. I seem to be on the wrong side of that coin. So the "rolls" kinda tend to get to me more than they should.
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I always think positive and all these "lucky rolls" from your opponents will
serve you in good stead in the future. You might be getting the short end of
the stick at this time but the same kick shots you've been playing with might
come in handy in big money games for you in the near future.

Just be thankful that someone's been setting up kick shots for you to
practice on!
biglaugh.gif
 
JAM said:
Keith McCready said his game went down a couple balls when the two-shot/push-out rules were changed in 9-ball. He believes that the game of 9-ball then became more a game of luck.
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There is no question about that statement, Jennie. Overnight, 9-ball went from a skilled game to one of almost pure luck. Does it take skill to run a rack of nine balls? Certainly. But that is not what wins most 9-ball games. Modern 9-ball matches and tournaments cannot be won without "the rolls", which usually means where the cueball is left when the opponent misses.

That's one reason why so many players can win tournaments. Whoever gets the rolls (and also can shoot) wins. When the old shoot-out rules were used, there were a handful of top players who dominated. That is no longer the case.

As long as Texas Express is used, along with winning from slopping the 9 on the break, and getting an early lucky 9 ball combination; then 9-ball cannot be considered a game of skill. As it is, 8-ball is a much fairer game. You can't win on the break, there are no early cominations for a win, and it's less likely to get an unlucky hook.

Doc
 
I quit playing for a number of years. When I come back guess what? No more two shot shoot out. What the hell is going on here? It's history now and you rarely see it played anymore. It use to be a lot of fun. I'd push out, the guy would pass, I'd make a thin cut or whatever with shape and run out. I'd push out, the guy decides not to let me shoot that again and misses, then I run out. Thats a lot of fun! Like Doc says there is more of a luck factor now compared to push out.

Rod
 
I liked 2 shot fouls. I also prefer the old rule of spotting balls that were pocketed on a foul along with BIH behind the line after a foul on the break.
 
JAM said:
Keith McCready said his game went down a couple balls when the two-shot/push-out rules were changed in 9-ball. He believes that the game of 9-ball then became more a game of luck.

With the advent of the jump cue being the norm, the game also changed a bit, utilizing new strategies. Some players today still do not like the jump cue, but figure if they can't beat 'em, join 'em. A pro player today, like a golfer, has a shooting cue with various shafts, a break cue, and a jump cue. Heck, Earl Strickland usually has 3 large pool cases with him when he is competing. :D

When the two-shot/pushout rules were in force, Keith was most likely in his prime. He said the guys on the East Coast couldn't beat the guys on the West Coast at that time, and so they changed the rules. The world according to Keith! :p

About 4 years ago, Gene Hooker and friends put on a 10-Ball Championship at the Trump's Marina Casino in Atlantic City. They utilized the two-shot/push-out rules, but somewhat modified. Danny Hewett won the tournament, and Jim Rempe came in second place.

Some old-school players think that it sucks when you make a perfect safety on an opponent, only to have him/her whip out their jump cue. I know the pros and cons of jump cues today, and though the jump cue is banned in some venues, it seems to be the norm with the majority that jump cues are a part of the game's strategy.

Me personally, I'd like to see them bring in neutral rackers for all competitive events. It's bad enough that 9-ball has become a game of luck, but those rack mechanics shouldn't be able to advance only because they can rack the balls to thwart their opponent's break and/or enhance their own break to pocket the same wing ball in the same pocket each and every break. That ain't luck. That is cheating, IMHO. :mad:

JAM
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I have to agree with Keith here. In the old days of "roll out" pool or "push out" as many now call it, the best player had a big edge. We spotted all balls and on a foul, you shot from behind the line. The incoming player could make the player who scratched shoot again (and he was on one foul).

Playing this way, the better player had a big advantage as there was much less luck involved. Keith can blame fellow West Coaster Richie Florence for the rule change. Richie came up with these new rules for the 1982 Caesar's Tahoe event to make it more marketable for television. I remember fighting Richie over the rule changes, but it definitely sped up the matches and forever changed pro 9-Ball.

Prior to this, a Race To Eleven would typically take two hours or more. Now it was shortened to an hour and a half or so. AFTER Richies innovative new rule change, the Texas Express Tour was started by John McChesney and he incorporated these new rules and called them the "Texas Express" rules. But give Richie credit where credit is due. It was "his" rules they used. Pretty soon, all 9-Ball tournaments were using these new "Texas Express" rules.

And Keith is right. The players had no need to be experts at kicking or jumping balls with the old rules. They just pushed out for a tough cut shot or a bank. The incoming player now had the dilemma whether to shoot or pass. It was at this same Tahoe event where the young Earl Strickland introduced the jump shot to Steve Mizerak and millions of television fans.

And Pool was changed forever!
 
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At the NPL and USPPA tournaments in San Francisco, the after-tournament ring game was played using Push-Out rules. Is this common? I always assumed it was to ensure that no safeties were played.

Ken

Edit: On second thought, it wasn't exactly push-out, because all players were obliged to make an honest attempt at a shot, but if a foul was committed, the incoming player had the option to pass the shot back to the last shooter.
 
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jay helfert said:
I have to agree with Keith here. In the old days of "roll out" pool or "push out" as many now call it, the best player had a big edge. We spotted all balls and on a foul, you shot from behind the line. The incoming player could make the player who scratched shoot again (and he was on one foul).

Playing this way, the better player had a big advantage as there was much less luck involved. Keith can blame fellow West Coaster Richie Florence for the rule change. Richie came up with these new rules for the 1982 Caesar's Tahoe event to make it more marketable for television. I remember fighting Richie over the rule changes, but it definitely sped up the matches and forever changed pro 9-Ball.

Prior to this, a Race To Eleven would typically take two hours or more. Now it was shortened to an hour and a half or so. AFTER Richies innovative new rule change, the Texas Express Tour was started by John McChesney and he incorporated these new rules and called them the "Texas Express" rules. But give Richie credit where credit is due. It was "his" rules they used. Pretty soon, all 9-Ball tournaments were using these new "Texas Express" rules.

And Keith is right. The players had no need to be experts at kicking or jumping balls with the old rules. They just pushed out for a tough cut shot or a bank. The incoming player now had the dilemma whether to shoot or pass. It was at this same Tahoe event where the young Earl Strickland introduced the jump shot to Steve Mizerak and millions of television fans.

And Pool was changed forever!
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Now, that was a very interesting read, Jay. Thanks for sharing a bit of American pool history. The only way to learn about some things is by word of mouth or, in this case, in black and white by those who were actually there! :)

It is also interesting to hear about Earl Strickland doing the jump shot in Lake Tahoe. I have overheard Earl in times gone by that he wasn't a fan of certain cues because of the materials used. When Earl jumped that ball, did he use his playing cue or a jump stick?

JAM
 
My vote has always been for 2 shot foul. Tx express, as has been said here, introduces too much luck into the game. On a bar box the luck factor is maybe triple because of the smaller playing area. The game should be about pocketing balls and not kicking throughout the game.

I recall watching an interesting strategy in a 2 shot game once. It was Eugene Browning giving up at least the 7 and last three on a bar box. Well, EB would push out behind a ball, usually just behind the edge of a ball. Then he consistently makes the jump shot and pockets his ball and runs out. The other guy was helpless. This was a set, of course, so the jelly beans were locked up.
 
Another thing about the two-shot/push-out rules is the player's ability to shoot the spot shot.

Today, the spot shot doesn't come up quite as often as it did when those rules were in effect.

This thread intrigues me. There are so many who have voiced opinions in favor of the "old" rules. Yet, there has only been one tournament that I know of that has utilized them in the past 4 years, and that was the Trump's Marina 9-Ball Tournament in Atlantic City.

I would love to see how today's up-and-coming young guns and super stars would fare in a tournament utilizing these rules. It would be great to see a competition where one's shooting skills were paramount as opposed to luck.

JAM
 
JAM said:
Now, that was a very interesting read, Jay. Thanks for sharing a bit of American pool history. The only way to learn about some things is by word of mouth or, in this case, in black and white by those who were actually there! :)

It is also interesting to hear about Earl Strickland doing the jump shot in Lake Tahoe. I have overheard Earl in times gone by that he wasn't a fan of certain cues because of the materials used. When Earl jumped that ball, did he use his playing cue or a jump stick?

JAM
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There was no such thing as a jump cue back then. Sammy Jones used to jump balls with his shaft (using one hand no less). That got this whole jump cue thing going. Sammy could jump a full ball from one ball away using an ordinary shaft!
 
JAM said:
Another thing about the two-shot/push-out rules is the player's ability to shoot the spot shot.

Today, the spot shot doesn't come up quite as often as it did when those rules were in effect.

This thread intrigues me. There are so many who have voiced opinions in favor of the "old" rules. Yet, there has only been one tournament that I know of that has utilized them in the past 4 years, and that was the Trump's Marina 9-Ball Tournament in Atlantic City.

I would love to see how today's up-and-coming young guns and super stars would fare in a tournament utilizing these rules. It would be great to see a competition where one's shooting skills were paramount as opposed to luck.

JAM
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The spot shot was our equivalent of the free throw in basketball. You shot it so often, it almost became a hanger.
 
jay helfert said:
There was no such thing as a jump cue back then. Sammy Jones used to jump balls with his shaft (using one hand no less). That got this whole jump cue thing going. Sammy could jump a full ball from one ball away using an ordinary shaft!
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Indeed! I've seen him do it!
 
Doc and Jay are right on with their posts on this topic. I agree with the push out rules, hence, my user name! Much, much more strategy involved and spotting a ball meant something. As a pro told me when the one foul rules first started showing up, "Just about anybody can hide the cue ball and just about anybody can learn to kick and hit it!"
 
Where can I find rules for 2 foul 9 ball? My googling skills are not coming up with anything. Thanks for any help
 
jay helfert said:
I have to agree with Keith here. In the old days of "roll out" pool or "push out" as many now call it, the best player had a big edge. We spotted all balls and on a foul, you shot from behind the line. The incoming player could make the player who scratched shoot again (and he was on one foul).

Playing this way, the better player had a big advantage as there was much less luck involved. Keith can blame fellow West Coaster Richie Florence for the rule change. Richie came up with these new rules for the 1982 Caesar's Tahoe event to make it more marketable for television. I remember fighting Richie over the rule changes, but it definitely sped up the matches and forever changed pro 9-Ball.

Prior to this, a Race To Eleven would typically take two hours or more. Now it was shortened to an hour and a half or so. AFTER Richies innovative new rule change, the Texas Express Tour was started by John McChesney and he incorporated these new rules and called them the "Texas Express" rules. But give Richie credit where credit is due. It was "his" rules they used. Pretty soon, all 9-Ball tournaments were using these new "Texas Express" rules.

And Keith is right. The players had no need to be experts at kicking or jumping balls with the old rules. They just pushed out for a tough cut shot or a bank. The incoming player now had the dilemma whether to shoot or pass. It was at this same Tahoe event where the young Earl Strickland introduced the jump shot to Steve Mizerak and millions of television fans.

And Pool was changed forever!
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Jay,

This has me scratching my head. I'm not questioning your memory of the Ceasar's Tahoe event but I remember playing under the one foul BIH rules in 1980 in the Portland Ore area. Why am I so certain, because we were playing in an event with those rules on the day Mt. St Helens blew it's top. Hard to forget that day. Players like Dan louie, Rich Gieler were wondering if they could get back to the Seattle area as the ash fall was all ready happening right outside the door of the pool hall. I'm thinking Richie F may have incorporated these rules at this event but he didn't come up with them all on his own. It's no big deal but the date of that volcano is pretty firmly planted in my brain...
 
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