Two questions about draw

2

219Dave

Pool is my therapy
Silver Member
I have been doing some drills to improve my ability to shoot with draw, and was wondering about two questions:

1. Am I imagining it, or is it easier to draw the cue ball when you hit with draw AND a little right or left English? Granted, the english doesn't always put the cue ball exactly where you want it so it's not an ideal solution.

2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.

Thanks for your info!
 
You should always get a better draw using it without right or left english. You can hit lower on the CB when not using lateral spin which will create more backwards motion. Try to really stroke through the ball and you will see the light. When I say stroke through I mean keep it on an even plain and not slicing down when you hit the CB.

Some cloth will most certainly draw more. I would actually say that woolier cloth will draw less because it is going to be naturally a slower cloth.

I keep trying to think of a very specific shot for draw where follow through is of the utmost importance, but I am drawing a blank. I can think of one for follow, but not draw.
 
Be careful when you hit a long draw with english.
You can draw the cue ball back well with english when the distance from the cue ball to the object ball is short.
When you hit a LONG draw shot with english, the cue ball will quit spinning backwards and will turn into sidespin.
Take a striped ball and try it. The reverse spin will quit faster the more it is hit off center.
 
Draw Shots

I have showed alot of people how to draw the cue ball. Everybody seems to think you have to do "something special". If you have a stong follow shot you can obtain a strong draw shot.

First hit a few follow shots with a follow thru of about 10 inches. Have the cue ball behind the line and the object ball about two feet away straight into a pocket.

Now setup the same shot aiming a a center ball shot. Now pivot everyting up from your bridge (including your upper body and head) so the cue stick tip is now aiming at the bottom of the cue ball. Now you use the same stroke as you follow stroke. All you are doing is inverting your stroke. I think you will be pleasently surprised.

What is happing is your mind is strill stroking a follow shot and not "trying to create something special". I have had alot of sucess with this technique teaching people how to draw the cue ball.
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
I have showed alot of people how to draw the cue ball. Everybody seems to think you have to do "something special". If you have a stong follow shot you can obtain a strong draw shot.

First hit a few follow shots with a follow thru of about 10 inches. Have the cue ball behind the line and the object ball about two feet away straight into a pocket.

Now setup the same shot aiming a a center ball shot. Now pivot everyting up from your bridge (including your upper body and head) so the cue stick tip is now aiming at the bottom of the cue ball. Now you use the same stroke as you follow stroke. All you are doing is inverting your stroke. I think you will be pleasently surprised.

What is happing is your mind is strill stroking a follow shot and not "trying to create something special". I have had alot of sucess with this technique teaching people how to draw the cue ball.
Click to expand...

I agree that the follow and draw are the same strokes. That 10 inch follow thru is a different story, why????...randyg
 
219Dave said:
2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.
Click to expand...

Am I reading this right? Usually I have put a lot more juice in my stroke to get the same action on a woolier cloth. 860 is a fantastic surface to draw on. Perhaps it's something else that's affecting your draw at your home table such as humidity? Or the balls that you're using?
 
219Dave said:
I have been doing some drills to improve my ability to shoot with draw, and was wondering about two questions:

1. Am I imagining it, or is it easier to draw the cue ball when you hit with draw AND a little right or left English? Granted, the english doesn't always put the cue ball exactly where you want it so it's not an ideal solution.

2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.

Thanks for your info!
Click to expand...

1. No
2. Range: If the cloth is too slow, then the CB won't move as far. If the cloth is too fast, the CB will sit and spin in one spot and lose some moving power. The best cloth would be a cloth that grabs the balls like a slow cloth, but has the ball rolling speed of a fast cloth. To me, it's a wash, as far as fast vs slow cloth, but get into the super slow or super fast cloth, then you lose CB traveling distance.

The key to a powerful draw or follow stroke is mechanics. Practice shooting straight, then practice shooting straight with power.
 
219Dave said:
I have been doing some drills to improve my ability to shoot with draw, and was wondering about two questions:

1. Am I imagining it, or is it easier to draw the cue ball when you hit with draw AND a little right or left English? Granted, the english doesn't always put the cue ball exactly where you want it so it's not an ideal solution.

2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.

Thanks for your info!
Click to expand...

As gunzby said, you get less draw when you use sidespin, not more. That's because you can only hit so far from centerball without miscueing, and that limit is a circle around centerball (slightly bigger than an American quarter, or about the same size as the circle around numbers on object balls).

If you use an object ball as your "cue ball" and turn the circle to face you, you'll see that the very bottom of this circle (the most draw you can get) is in the center of the ball and the more you move your tip to the side the higher you have to go on the ball to stay within the "non miscue" circle.

pj
chgo
 
219Dave said:
I have been doing some drills to improve my ability to shoot with draw, and was wondering about two questions:

1. Am I imagining it, or is it easier to draw the cue ball when you hit with draw AND a little right or left English? Granted, the english doesn't always put the cue ball exactly where you want it so it's not an ideal solution.

2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.

Thanks for your info!
Click to expand...

My league partner can't draw for shit....among other things.

If you really watch close when he strokes through the CB he raises his tip up just when he strikes the CB. SO I said to him " either you fix your stroke or rub the tip on the table to compensate for the fact you know you raise it up when you stroke". It worked for him; well sort of. As a matter of fact most good players or instructors say do just that. Of course first and foremost follow through is the key to all stroke shots.

Me on the other hand, I have the opposite issue. I drop down when I stroke. So I compensate by raising my tip like a 1/4-1/2 tip.


Hope this helps, Good luck!
 
Last edited:
If the cloth is too slow, then the CB won't move as far. If the cloth is too fast, the CB will sit and spin in one spot and lose some moving power. The best cloth would be a cloth that grabs the balls like a slow cloth, but has the ball rolling speed of a fast cloth. To me, it's a wash, as far as fast vs slow cloth, but get into the super slow or super fast cloth, then you lose CB traveling distance.
Click to expand...

It's not true that the CB will lose more draw spin as it "peels out" on slipperier cloth - it loses the same amount of spin on any kind of cloth; it just takes a little longer on slippery cloth (see explanation below).

If the CB hits the OB with the same amount of backspin, then the cloth doesn't matter - the cue ball will draw back the same distance on slippery or sticky cloth. But sticky (nappy or dirty) cloth rubs off more of the CB's backspin on its way to the OB and slippery cloth rubs off less. That's why you have to put more backspin on the CB on sticky cloth and why the best cloth for draw is the fastest (slipperiest) cloth.

When the CB hits the OB with the same amount of backspin (or forward spin) it reacts differently on slippery and sticky cloth:

- On slippery cloth it will "peel out" for a longer time and take more time to pick up speed and start rolling naturally, but it will lose spin more slowly.

- On sticky cloth it will "peel out" for a shorter time and take less time to pick up speed and start rolling naturally, but it will lose spin more quickly.

Here's the interesting thing: these two effects balance out so that when the CB has stopped peeling out and starts rolling naturally it will be moving the same speed in both cases and therefore will draw back (or follow forward) the same distance.

pj
chgo

P.S. You point out an important distinction that many players don't get: cloth is faster/slower in two separate ways; sliding speed and rolling speed. Fast cloth is usually faster both ways, but not always to the same degree. Some cloth slides really well (so the CB retains lots of draw or follow spin on its way to the OB), but doesn't roll as far as you'd expect, and vice verse. "Slipperiness" (sliding speed) also affects the way balls react off the rails with sidespin.
 
Last edited:
metallicane...Absolutely correct. As you know, every person has their own "natural finish". That's why any instructional material that demands a certain length followthrough, is incorrect. It's different for each person. The only way someone's finish should be a foot or more, is if their arms are at least 4 feet long!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

metallicane said:
Each person's follow through should be their own. No set distance for different people.
Click to expand...
 
Draw shot

The reason is said a 10" follow thru is because he will only go about 4" - 6" trying for 10". If I had told him to follow thru 4" - 6" he would of only went 2" - 3". I just wanted him to get thru the cue ball and not wack it.

I will agree a follow thru varies with each individual. Allen Hopkins stroke/follow thru looks so bad it hard to watch but as we all know he is one of the greatest players ever. Different strokes for different folks.

Once a person learns draw with the "pivot technique" you can then have him lower his bridge hand for a more efficent draw stroke. Trying to do everything at once will confuse the player. We must walk before we can run.
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
It's not true that the CB will lose more draw spin as it "peels out" on slipperier cloth - it loses the same amount of spin on any kind of cloth; it just takes a little longer on slippery cloth (see explanation below).
Click to expand...
Very true.

Patrick Johnson said:
If the CB hits the OB with the same amount of backspin, then the cloth doesn't matter - the cue ball will draw back the same distance on slippery or sticky cloth.
Click to expand...
It's kind of a nit, but for the reason you give above ("it just takes a little longer on slippery cloth"), the cueball will draw back a bit farther on slicker cloth, assuming its rolling resistance is at least the same or less than the stickier cloth's.

Jim
 
Last edited:
It's kind of a nit, but for the reason you give above ("it just takes a little longer on slippery cloth"), the cueball will draw back a bit farther on slicker cloth, assuming its rolling resistance is at least the same or less than the stickier cloth's.

Jim
Click to expand...

I thought that might be true, but didn't want to blur my message with too many equivocal details. I suspect it's too small a difference to matter much, right?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I thought that might be true, but didn't want to blur my message with too many equivocal details. I suspect it's too small a difference to matter much, right?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Yes, it isn't very much compared to the distance traveled after rolling commences, which as you pointed out, would be the same if the rolling resitance happened to be the same. But it's my job to blur... :)

Jim
 
Seems to me that draw is all about the speed of the tip when it hits the CB. Max speed is obtained with a snap of the wrist and thus results in max draw. Learning to be accurate with the technique is another matter.

There are probably contrary opinions so check it out for yourself.

I suspect that some people learn to snap the wrist to get a powerful draw and then lose control of the intended direction which is usually a part of one's follow through.
 
1. Am I imagining it, or is it easier to draw the cue ball when you hit with draw AND a little right or left English? Granted, the english doesn't always put the cue ball exactly where you want it so it's not an ideal solution.
Click to expand...
It's not imagination. You are experiencing an illusion. I have instructed around this "issue" a number of times.

Theoretical maximums aside, this happens a lot - regardless of your skill level. When lining up directly on the vertical axis of the cue ball, it appears that you are hitting with maximum draw, but the reality is you can strike the cue ball much lower. When you aim with english and draw, you are (most likely) actually striking the cue ball with more draw (i.e., a higher vertical rotation component) as you can actually see the bottom of the cue ball. This is so despite the fact that you also have side spin. In my experience, the majority of people who encounter this type "issue" have a very low sight line (i.e., chin close to the stick) or a short bridge. A few "quick fixes" you can try: (1) raise your head a bit, (2) shoot with a longer bridge, and (3) aim at the point where the cue ball and the table touch, and try to hit the cue ball as close to that point as possible. You'll be surprised how low you can actually strike the cue ball. Also, give a Rempe training ball a try.

2. Can you guys draw a lot better on some cloth than others? I have simonis 860 on my own table. I love the cloth, but can only draw so-so on it. I feel that when I play on cheaper, "woolier' cloth if you will, I can draw on shots where the cue ball is a lot farther from the object ball.
Click to expand...
Yes. Some tables will allow 4 rails of draw. Others will only give you 2.

The reason for this is that balls roll farther on new / slicker cloth (and will also travel farther with better rails). This holds true for any amount of top/bottom on the new/slick cloth vs old/nappy cloth.

What kind of chalk are you using? When was the last time your Simonis was stretched? Also, try cleaning your cue ball, as it will roll better if it is nice and shiny.

-td
 
JoeW said:
Seems to me that draw is all about the speed of the tip when it hits the CB. Max speed is obtained with a snap of the wrist and thus results in max draw. Learning to be accurate with the technique is another matter.
...
Click to expand...
But most people can hit the ball harder than they need to for most draw shots without snapping their wrists. I think there are other fundamentals of drawing the cue ball that are far more important to learn than a technique that might be required on 1% of all draw shots.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top