Types of Joints

jus7_1nsan3

jus7_1nsan3

-_-
Hi,

I would like to ask you if you can tell me the differnces in cue joints.I mean what is the differnce in the hit between wood to wood(for example both the shaft and the butt are made from maple),Stainless Steel to Stainless Steel,ivory to wood and so on.Which type gives a mellow hit,which one stiff hit.I believe that this is not the only factor but in my opinion it is one of the important..

Actually I don't know all the types of joints but I will be happy if someone explain me and I think it will be useful for most of the people

Thanks ! :)
 
Wood to wood means there is no insert in the shaft and the contact is wood face to wood face.

Usually:

3/8x10,3/8x11,Radial: wood to wood
5/16x14: piloted stainless steel, brass insert in shaft
5/16x18: flat faced stainless steel, brass insert in shaft

All these joints have variants and can have ivory, thin stainless, hardwood (usually over phenolic), phenolic collars, etc. The hit is one factor but balance is also to be considered since a stainless joint will produce a more forward balance than a phenolic collar in the same cue, for example. Also, shaft taper, ferrule and tip will influence the firmness of the hit as much, or more, than the joint type; IMHO, of course.
 
jus7_1nsan3 said:
Thanks for the answer!

What can I expect from a cue with wood to wood joint-a stiff or soft hit?
Click to expand...

It's going to depend more on the shaft taper as far as stiffness goes. You maybe should try to find someone who has that type of joint and ask if you can try it. Hit is really subjective to the individual.
 
Actually I don't know all the types of joints but I will be happy if someone explain me and I think it will be useful for most of the people

Thanks !
Click to expand...
Here is the response I post everytime this question is asked. It should help clear things up.

Many cue makers built 5/16X14 piloted joints with just a brass insert or a bit of wood sticking out, i.e., the pilot. These are not flat faced, since the face of the joint has a pilot (on the shaft) and a recess (on the butt)

On this shaft, the pilot is rounded, but there isn't alot of brass showing (but there is some wood showing)
Pin2_.jpg


On this shaft, more brass showing (but there is still some wood showing)
Pin4.jpg


On this shaft, there is almost NO wood showing, and only the pilot is showing
Pin1.jpg


A piloted joint:
Pin3_.jpg


Just the butt
pin5.jpg



Here are some examples of some different joints:

An example of radial flat faced joint:
radial_pin.jpg


radial_flat.jpg



An example of 5/16X14 flat faced joint:
5_16_14_flat.jpg


An example of 3/8X10 flat faced joint:
3_10_butt.jpg


3_8_10.jpg


-td
 
Basically I gather you want to know the "FEEL" of the different joints especially wood to wood.

I'll stick to the wood to wood. The closest you will get to the hit (feel) of a good one piece house cue would be a butt/shaft combo that is not only flat faced wood to wood but also with wood pin (Longoni). Second closest would be flat faced wood to wood with g-10 or brass pin (some customs). Steel and stainless and titanium pins with wood to wood flat face will feel less "natural" but still mimick a one piece. Good example is McDermott (SS,3/8"-10, flat faced wood to wood).

Other types with inserts will have a different feel (not necessarily worse,just very different).

Some more exotic joints you may want to look at in your research are the "Lambros" joint and the "Layani" joint.

Lets not even get started on tips.:confused::p
 
here's an interesting question for everybody....so many things determine the hit of a cue. you could have a soft hitting stainless joint cue and a hard hitting wood to wood joint cue. if i took a bunch of cues and put tape over the joint, would people be able to tell for the most part if it was wood to wood, pin into an insert, etc?
 
McChen said:
here's an interesting question for everybody....so many things determine the hit of a cue. you could have a soft hitting stainless joint cue and a hard hitting wood to wood joint cue. if i took a bunch of cues and put tape over the joint, would people be able to tell for the most part if it was wood to wood, pin into an insert, etc?
Click to expand...

I'd be able to tell you if it was wood to wood. Not necessarily which pin. From what I've heard a Lambros might fool me though.
The metal to metal, metal to wood type joints are nearly indistiguishable I think (never bothered to compare) but I might be able to tell if the pin is steel or brass .....maybe (a wrap could dampen the feel).
 
i'm not sure if i could tell the difference either, the joint is just one small part that makes up the hit. would be an interesting experiment, esp if everything else was kept relatively the same. i guess i don't get too concerned about the joint type though...as long as it holds the cue together accurately and solidly
 
jus7_1nsan3 said:
Hi,

I would like to ask you if you can tell me the differnces in cue joints.I mean what is the differnce in the hit between wood to wood(for example both the shaft and the butt are made from maple),Stainless Steel to Stainless Steel,ivory to wood and so on.Which type gives a mellow hit,which one stiff hit.I believe that this is not the only factor but in my opinion it is one of the important..

Actually I don't know all the types of joints but I will be happy if someone explain me and I think it will be useful for most of the people

Thanks ! :)
Click to expand...
As a general ruleThe flat face wood to wood, Or ivory to wood typically yields a "softer hit" while a piloted joint 5/16-14 usually feels a little stiffer. Yes, there are exceptions even among the same maker (in my opinion) when the other specs are the same... ie, taper etc.
 
jus7_1nsan3 said:
Thanks for the answers!

Can you tell me which is the main and most important factor that defines the cue's hit...
Click to expand...

LOL I think you got your answer already just based on how varied the responses have been. People will disagree over the extent to which each one of these factors has a bearing on hit, but in general, will agree that these factors are:

-Primary materials (shaft materials, forearm material, ferrules, joints, shaft inserts)
-Shaft construction (maple dowel, flat lamination, radial lamination, other variations such as predators' hollow portion, OB's unique process)
-Joint (As has already been documented in this thread, primarily wood to wood vs. piloted stainless steel, but also variations such as wood pilots, the lambros joint, etc.)
-Tips (hardness, laminated vs. not laminated, number of layers, material [which animal the leather came from, phenolic, composites, etc.], weather or not it has been soaked in dairy [not joking - look up milk dud tips])
-Taper (pro v. euro/conical, length of taper, unique tapers [e.g. Southwest's compound taper])

-Also weight and balance point make a difference, although I categorize this more as "feel" rather than hit - although others will argue otherwise and/or argue if there is even a difference

Personally I will echo the earlier post that I can feel the difference between piloted stainless steel and wood to wood joints, although some say that there is little difference. As far as construction, with the advents in technology and the mastery of cuemakers, no joint will cause significant mechanical problems (some people have problems with wood to wood pins destroying the wooden shaft threads and some have problems with metal pilots getting stuck - I blame this on the owners rather than the joints/pins).

I will go out on a limb and say that one of the easiest things to notice is the affect that the tip has on hit - in my experience almost everyone can definitively tell, even very new players. The taper has a very profound impact on hit as well, but conversely I find that most people do not actively notice a shaft's/cue's taper or attribute their preference for a shaft/cue to the taper.

I'm sure I've missed something and many will agree/disagree but either way I hope this helps you! I agree with whoever said it earlier that your best bet is to get exposure to as many different kinds of cues as possible to form your own opinion. Even on this board of experienced players, you can see how much we disagree, so it really is up to you to define your own definition of hit/feel.
 
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