Uh oh. Berhman/ABP

Just a question, not meant to start a flame war..........

Why do I (as a league player) want to donate even a dollar to an organization that the players do nothing to promote the sport ?

I could see it differently if the 'pros' were out there trying to get sponsors or the like, maybe even putting on exhibitions at some events. But if these 'pros' are going to sit on thier collective a$$e$, make demands, and not attempt in any way, shape or form to make pool a more mainstream game/sport, why do I want to commit even a dollar of my money to thier plight ?

Irving Crane chose to sell Cadillacs in Rochester back in the late 50'. Pool money wasn't his primary source of income, it supplemented his income.

Just sayin'................

Well, if a league is footing the bill, then they can write the job description, which could and should include certain expectations of promotion, conduct, interaction with league members (who should receive preference, as they would be paying the tab, at least in part), etc. It could be done.

I would like to formally advance the idea just a bit further and say that why could a league not just sell some shares in the tour as a profit-driven entity? They certainly could, and that would be a tie that would bind. Instead of having folks just donate, why could they not have a vested interest in the success of a pro pool tour? Could happen, just sayin'.
 
Well, if a league is footing the bill, then they can write the job description, which could and should include certain expectations of promotion, conduct, interaction with league members (who should receive preference, as they would be paying the tab, at least in part), etc. It could be done.

I would like to formally advance the idea just a bit further and say that why could a league not just sell some shares in the tour as a profit-driven entity? They certainly could, and that would be a tie that would bind. Instead of having folks just donate, why could they not have a vested interest in the success of a pro pool tour? Could happen, just sayin'.

The problem with a league promotion of a tour is management. There aren't enough competent or experienced managers that would be supported by players and fans. The growth of the ABP and pros and their amateur events/leagues shows how poorly trusted management in the sport is.

Sure with a structure in place, it might solve old problems, but the human element of who will do it still exists. Currently, no names are icons of reliability and trustworthiness. What is happening is the people living and dealing with the problems are making their own attempts to deal with problems historically faced in the professional billiard industry.
 
Last edited:
Charging league players and extra small amount to fund a pro tour is not a donation. It is an investment into the continued survival and growth of our sport. Along with this comes the opportunity to provide a clear path to go from rank beginner to professional player.

What this has to do with Mr. Behrmann is that if there were such a tour then it would be easier for him to negotiate sponsors in a climate where pool was consistently shown on television with some recognition for the game's top players. Thus easier for him to secure the funds and have the prize monies guaranteed.
 
Isn't this what Dee & Corey are trying to do w/ the UPL?

And what about NAPA? 5,000 players in 12 months? Crazy.

Zach
 
Charging league players and extra small amount to fund a pro tour is not a donation. It is an investment into the continued survival and growth of our sport. Along with this comes the opportunity to provide a clear path to go from rank beginner to professional player.

What this has to do with Mr. Behrmann is that if there were such a tour then it would be easier for him to negotiate sponsors in a climate where pool was consistently shown on television with some recognition for the game's top players. Thus easier for him to secure the funds and have the prize monies guaranteed.

First off, I enjoy these type of civilized forum discussions versus the "I'm right, you're wrong, my way or else" posts that seem to be plaguing AZB lately.

Speaking of television coverage, I realize that pool doesn't get the exposure that we all hope it will, but whenever I highlight "BILLIARDS" on the on-screen guide, 90% of the time it's a WPBA event (the other 10% is usually "Trick Shot Magic"). And surrounding the table, hanging on the fences are the promotional banners for Olhausen, McDermott, Aramith, Simonis, APA, Pooldawg, Mueller, etc., etc.

As far as Barry Behrman and the ABP, hopefully they can reach some sort of agreement in the very near future. But what the ABP might also consider is sitting down with the WPBA at some point and see what's been working for them.
 
Charging league players and extra small amount to fund a pro tour is not a donation. It is an investment into the continued survival and growth of our sport. Along with this comes the opportunity to provide a clear path to go from rank beginner to professional player.

What this has to do with Mr. Behrmann is that if there were such a tour then it would be easier for him to negotiate sponsors in a climate where pool was consistently shown on television with some recognition for the game's top players. Thus easier for him to secure the funds and have the prize monies guaranteed.

I guess my question is who profits if such a pro tour, made possible by league players, flourishes; and who owns the tour? The league owner? The pro players? I mean, shouldn't the investors (i.e. the league players) get the benefit? Would a venture capital company be in interested throwing money at this idea because it's good for the sport? If you are asking the league players to invest then that's what it should be, an investment with an expectation of a monetary return. If not, and you're asking them to do it for the good of the sport, then I suggest that a donation is exactly what it is. I'm just not sure that a business, hopefully a profit making business, should be funded by donations from league players just because some of us would like to see pro pool succeed so are looking around at where to get the money and see this giant pool of league players as an easy source. Why not just have the ABP members stand out front of supermarkets with a bucket and a bell?

Go to the ownership of the APA with a business plan and ask them to take one dollar a week per member that they collect from the leagues and invest it in a professional tour. Think they'll do it without an ownership interest? I don't, so why should the local league players?

The return on investment, if it is successful, should be monetary, not some esoteric notion of providing "a clear path to go from rank beginner to professional player." First off, there already is a clear path - get good enough to compete with other professionals. Secondly, I doubt leagues as currently structured are the best path to greatness. I'm in one and it's a lot of fun but it is certainly not the most efficient way to become a great pool player.

Look, I'm not totally against the idea and if a league wants to offer a voluntary means of players donating, OK for those that want to, but again I'd like to know who will be profiting from the venture besides the players. And CSI's USAPL was set up as a new league with this system in place at the outset, and that's the way to do it. But if I'm just giving my money away I need to know why I should give it to professional pool rather than towards breast cancer or autism research.
 
Charging league players and extra small amount to fund a pro tour is not a donation. It is an investment into the continued survival and growth of our sport.

I may be nitpicking here but requiring league players to pay extra is not a donation. If large organizations like the APA would like to help support the Pro Tour, I'm all for that. But I don't support charging it back to the league players. :cool:
 
I guess my question is who profits if such a pro tour, made possible by league players, flourishes; and who owns the tour? The league owner? The pro players? I mean, shouldn't the investors (i.e. the league players) get the benefit? Would a venture capital company be in interested throwing money at this idea because it's good for the sport? If you are asking the league players to invest then that's what it should be, an investment with an expectation of a monetary return. If not, and you're asking them to do it for the good of the sport, then I suggest that a donation is exactly what it is. I'm just not sure that a business, hopefully a profit making business, should be funded by donations from league players just because some of us would like to see pro pool succeed so are looking around at where to get the money and see this giant pool of league players as an easy source. Why not just have the ABP members stand out front of supermarkets with a bucket and a bell?

Go to the ownership of the APA with a business plan and ask them to take one dollar a week per member that they collect from the leagues and invest it in a professional tour. Think they'll do it without an ownership interest? I don't, so why should the local league players?

The return on investment, if it is successful, should be monetary, not some esoteric notion of providing "a clear path to go from rank beginner to professional player." First off, there already is a clear path - get good enough to compete with other professionals. Secondly, I doubt leagues as currently structured are the best path to greatness. I'm in one and it's a lot of fun but it is certainly not the most efficient way to become a great pool player.

Look, I'm not totally against the idea and if a league wants to offer a voluntary means of players donating, OK for those that want to, but again I'd like to know who will be profiting from the venture besides the players. And CSI's USAPL was set up as a new league with this system in place at the outset, and that's the way to do it. But if I'm just giving my money away I need to know why I should give it to professional pool rather than towards breast cancer or autism research.

Consider it this way. If I told you that you had to invest 30 million and in return you would get 500 million in revenue for 10 years would you be interested in what I have to say?

I don't know what The Color of Money cost to make. Let's say 30 million. The billiard industry reaped the reward from this visibility for a good 10-15 years.

The return on investment by having a financially sound tour that is featured on television every month or even every few weeks is quite simply more people playing pool. Which means more table sales, more cue sales, more table time, more league players, more hard core players, more fans who don't even play pool, more outside advertisers, more connections, more suitors who want to be a part of it. It's not a charity for the top players it's a business investment to entice the top players to perform on command and reward them for that performance. In return they inspire millions of people to take up the game which then means that more people end up as top players.

Golf and Tennis both have very structured paths to go from amateur to professional. You can't just walk in off the street and pay your entry fee and become a pro player. You have to earn that status in both sports. You have to prove that you belong in the professional ranks. In return when you get there the money is good. All you need to focus on is getting to the events and doing well.

Consequently both sports enjoy a solid base of amateur players who contribute to the professional base in a myriad of ways. And both sports have a huge base of fans who don't even play but are attractive to advertisers.

I would not donate to a group of pool players either. I have scuffled around the USA playing pool for money for a couple decades. Luckily I have a career where I don't have to rely on my pool skills to survive. But top level pool players are a pretty lazy bunch overall, with some very notable exceptions. However as we saw with the IPT they can be motivated by the right incentives. And those would be first some sort of guarantee that the payday is there if they show up and play. That is the bedrock of the whole thing. Once that is in place then you can layer other duties on top such as a certain amount of time dedicated to promotion.

As to who would own the tour. The league or leagues would own it. Just as the APA owns the APA League and runs it successfully right now. Pool players just simply don't have what it takes to own their own tour. They don't have the money, they don't have the base, they don't have the experience, and most of all they don't have the drive that it takes to do the work. They are a collection of individuals who have all scuffled for most of their lives hustling their way from event to event. And by hustling I mean finding sponsors and backers, robbing amateur events etc...not hustling in the "lying to get a game" sense although some pros still do that.

I think that the pros should have a percentage of the tour as a group. They should share in it's well being as fellow investors and not be made to feel like employees or subcontractors.

The fact of it is that every league player in this country pays money for things that they may not want to buy if given a choice. You can divide Jeanette Lee's salary by the total amount of APA players and that's how she is getting paid. When the APA sponsors a pro event that money comes from league fees. Terry Bell's huge house comes out of the fact that 250,000 people pay a little bit each week and he skims a tiny bit off of each person's payment.

The model is perfectly sound with not one bit of downside. There isn't even any reason whatsoever to to explain to the league players that .25cts of their league fees are funding a professional tour. The APA and other leagues do not explain their investment decisions to the members any more than AT&T explains theirs to their subscribers.

And if it were tried and didn't work then after two years they shut it down and reduce the fees to the players (or not) and life continues on.
 
I may be nitpicking here but requiring league players to pay extra is not a donation. If large organizations like the APA would like to help support the Pro Tour, I'm all for that. But I don't support charging it back to the league players. :cool:

How do you think that such support (I call it investment) is to be funded then?

Where do you propose that the leagues get the money to fund a Professional Tour if not from their already existing base of subscribers?

Do you tell the APA what to spend their advertising budget on? As an APA player that budget is already being supported by the players. If you did the math then perhaps the $5 a week that you currently spend could be reduced to $3 a week if the APA cut all their current advertising. This is of course just speculation for the purpose of example.

If the return on investment for you were a much better pool experience, say for example a couple times a year a pro would show up and be an honorary sub on your team and hang out with you all for a night, wouldn't that be worth the few extra dollars you might spend as part of your fees and otherwise would never miss?
 
I don't disagree with the way you put it. The league owner provides the risk capital for the tour and owns it. The players perhaps get some representation on the board or whatever. I've no problem with that. But then I wouldn't go to all the league players and ask them to donate a dollar a week. Leave the league players out of it. The league owner should just go ahead and fund a tour with his own money. Real simple really, but it always seems in these threads to get tied into the league players donating every week, usually a dollar. ;) And usually several posters seem to project the opinion that league players should do this, like they and they alone owe it to professional pool. That's what I disagree with.

Roadie, certainly a league owner would perhaps have more to gain than an outside institutional investor since there are numerous potential synergies and tie-ins that could prove profitable for the league owner over and above the tour itself. Why do you think the owners of the APA haven't jumped on this yet?
 
I don't disagree with the way you put it. The league owner provides the risk capital for the tour and owns it. The players perhaps get some representation on the board or whatever. I've no problem with that. But then I wouldn't go to all the league players and ask them to donate a dollar a week. Leave the league players out of it. The league owner should just go ahead and fund a tour with his own money. Real simple really, but it always seems in these threads to get tied into the league players donating every week, usually a dollar. ;) And usually several posters seem to project the opinion that league players should do this, like they and they alone owe it to professional pool. That's what I disagree with.

Roadie, certainly a league owner would perhaps have more to gain than an outside institutional investor since there are numerous potential synergies and tie-ins that could prove profitable for the league owner over and above the tour itself. Why do you think the owners of the APA haven't jumped on this yet?

You explained it much better than I did. Large organizations like the APA have deep pockets and certainly have more to gain than the average Joe playing league pool. They could use their advertising budget.
 
I don't disagree with the way you put it. The league owner provides the risk capital for the tour and owns it. The players perhaps get some representation on the board or whatever. I've no problem with that. But then I wouldn't go to all the league players and ask them to donate a dollar a week. Leave the league players out of it.

I wouldn't ask them to donate either. I would simply raise the fees and invest in whatever avenues I felt were worth investing into.

The league owner should just go ahead and fund a tour with his own money.

The league owner's money comes from the league members.


Real simple really, but it always seems in these threads to get tied into the league players donating every week, usually a dollar. ;) And usually several posters seem to project the opinion that league players should do this, like they and they alone owe it to professional pool. That's what I disagree with.

No one owes anything to professional pool. Professional pool is entertainment. If I owned the APA then in this climate I would own professional pool because there has never been a better time to buy it.

Roadie, certainly a league owner would perhaps have more to gain than an outside institutional investor since there are numerous potential synergies and tie-ins that could prove profitable for the league owner over and above the tour itself. Why do you think the owners of the APA haven't jumped on this yet?

I think that the APA does not think long term enough and that they are famously uncooperative with the rest of the billiard industry. Plus since the founders of the APA are Terry Bell and Larry Hubbard, two former road players and professionals, they probably know that getting the professionals to act like professionals is similar to herding cats.
 
I don't disagree with the way you put it. The league owner provides the risk capital for the tour and owns it. The players perhaps get some representation on the board or whatever. I've no problem with that. But then I wouldn't go to all the league players and ask them to donate a dollar a week. Leave the league players out of it. The league owner should just go ahead and fund a tour with his own money. Real simple really, but it always seems in these threads to get tied into the league players donating every week, usually a dollar. ;) And usually several posters seem to project the opinion that league players should do this, like they and they alone owe it to professional pool. That's what I disagree with.

Roadie, certainly a league owner would perhaps have more to gain than an outside institutional investor since there are numerous potential synergies and tie-ins that could prove profitable for the league owner over and above the tour itself. Why do you think the owners of the APA haven't jumped on this yet?

I certainly agree with you that donating a buck or whatever each week with the sole purpose to fund a pro tour would not be attractive to me. I would expect something out of it in return. Something like a pro conducting a clinic, say, once a league session or something like that. Also the predetermined path for any league player to obtain pro status has value as well, at least to me. Donating for the sake of donating is a non-starter for me. I have mixed feelings about the leagues in my area anyway, and only play in them sporadically.

Remember, if the league is paying, the league can write the job description for the pros, and least imo. It's not all about the prize money that they could win.
 
But then I wouldn't go to all the league players and ask them to donate a dollar a week. Leave the league players out of it. The league owner should just go ahead and fund a tour with his own money. Real simple really, but it always seems in these threads to get tied into the league players donating every week, usually a dollar. ;)

I'm also against asking league players to pay an extra dollar/week to fund a pro tour. In Denver, where I live, it already costs $11/week to play on a league team. A $1/week price increase to fund a pro tour amounts to a 9% price increase in the cost of playing on a league.

In addition, I think that a pro tour should stand on its own two feet without having to be subsidized by league teams. So that means that the pro tours need to get their act together and start marketing and promoting their sport better. And get rid of incompetent board directors who think that they can use the threat of a boycott to achieve their means.
 
justnum...Wow is all I can say. NO names are icons of reliability and trustworthiness? Perhaps not to you. Maybe you should apply for the position, since you seem to know everything.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The idea is so simple it is likely people have already discussed it. It was never put into play though, I am guessing it was not implemented because the management wasn't in place, or the people who thought giving one group that sum of money would be too easily tainted by corruption or greed.

I am just looking at facts. Facts like Allen Hopkins and his super billiards expo, Tony Robles and his National Amateur Pool League (NAPL), Charlie Williams and Dragon Promotions, John Archer and the ABP. All of these pro players are doing something they thought other people should've been doing.

When they realized other people weren't doing a job they could support, they took the responsibility upon themselves to do that job.

It is easy to say someone should do something, the hard part is getting someone to do what people are saying.
 
Back
Top