ultra violent
- Thread starter treed
- Start date
The original poster wanted to know about "ultraviolet" finishes but the spelling was "ultra violent".
dave sutton
Banned
I just had a conversation with scot at proficient about this. The pluses are it dries fast. So you can sand almost immed. The downfall is he feels it cloudy and i feel it dries too hard and cracks if banged. Plus its more expensive. If you dont know scot he does about a bazillion perfect refinishes a week. So i trust his opinion a great deal
Uv
Hi,
I have the whole set up and have experimented with UV finishing for a while.
While I am not knocking any cue maker who uses it, I am saying that I prefer PPG automotive clear coat over 3 coats of G5 epoxy that has been flat sanded.
Here are the problems I have encountered with UV Finishing:
1. Some woods with oil in them like Cocobolo do not cure evenly.
2. I don't seem to be able to buff out the UV to the same luster as PPG. I have examined the finishes on the best cue makers who use UV and some of them have very good finishes ( better than my UV jobs ) but in all honesty the luster from the finish buffing falls a little short of PPG.
3. The absolute reason I stopped using UV is because although it is very hard and dent resistant, the finish has a tendency to lift and leave an opaque area under the finish when you bang the cue hard. It kinda looks like a fingernail under there. When this happens you need to completely sand the entire finish off before you can refinish the cue. With PPG or other clear coats, you can rough sand, fill any dents, sand again to make flat and then refinish.
I have used Van Tech and Mcfadden UV products. Maybe there is something else out there that I am unaware of. If anyone else has more information about this and can set me straight if I am out there in left field, please weigh in.
The one thing that I want in my finished product is for my cues to look like a finish on a concept car at the auto show. For now the UV finish does not get me there.
My UV light does come in handy to take my purpleheart to a deep purple color after a final cut.
Rick Geschrey
Hi,
I have the whole set up and have experimented with UV finishing for a while.
While I am not knocking any cue maker who uses it, I am saying that I prefer PPG automotive clear coat over 3 coats of G5 epoxy that has been flat sanded.
Here are the problems I have encountered with UV Finishing:
1. Some woods with oil in them like Cocobolo do not cure evenly.
2. I don't seem to be able to buff out the UV to the same luster as PPG. I have examined the finishes on the best cue makers who use UV and some of them have very good finishes ( better than my UV jobs ) but in all honesty the luster from the finish buffing falls a little short of PPG.
3. The absolute reason I stopped using UV is because although it is very hard and dent resistant, the finish has a tendency to lift and leave an opaque area under the finish when you bang the cue hard. It kinda looks like a fingernail under there. When this happens you need to completely sand the entire finish off before you can refinish the cue. With PPG or other clear coats, you can rough sand, fill any dents, sand again to make flat and then refinish.
I have used Van Tech and Mcfadden UV products. Maybe there is something else out there that I am unaware of. If anyone else has more information about this and can set me straight if I am out there in left field, please weigh in.
The one thing that I want in my finished product is for my cues to look like a finish on a concept car at the auto show. For now the UV finish does not get me there.
My UV light does come in handy to take my purpleheart to a deep purple color after a final cut.
Rick Geschrey
dave sutton
Banned
Ultraviolet... I loved that movie...
I agree with some of your observations but not all. I used epoxy for a number of years and it's losing adhesion to the sub-striate and causing an air bubble is one of the reasons I got a UV outfit. The key is not sanding to smoothly, cleaning well of dust and oils and most importantly, using a good sealer that sticks to all of the components and the UV will stick to it. I use the UV as a filler on all the cues I build or refinish as I have no problems with it sticking, just it's rubbing out. Once all area is filled and sanded flat and smooth I put on 3 coats of PPG as it is so easy to tub out. Actually, I feel the UV gives a better shine than the auto urethanes if installed properly but unless you are a large manufacturer you can't afford a system that enables you to spray a perfect coat that doesn't need rubbed out. I can't get the same degree of shine after rubbing out as before I start. I understand that McDermott and Viking have a million invested in their UV systems so that their finishes come out of the system completed with no need for rubbing out or buffing.
Dick
For those interested...
DYMAX Corp.
www.dymax.com
They make the materials and sell the equipment.
They also do the formulations in-house so you can tailor the cured hardness wherever you want it to be.
We use their UV-curable masking material here.
Personally I'm with SCDiveTeam in that I feel a properly done automotive finish is just stellar... Too good at times as evry little tiny flaw jumps out at you...
DYMAX Corp.
www.dymax.com
They make the materials and sell the equipment.
They also do the formulations in-house so you can tailor the cured hardness wherever you want it to be.
We use their UV-curable masking material here.
Personally I'm with SCDiveTeam in that I feel a properly done automotive finish is just stellar... Too good at times as evry little tiny flaw jumps out at you...
You should ask Leon Sly about using ultra violet light when making cues. I know that he has thrown a cue or two under some UV to get some cool effects out of it. It's worked pretty well for him. I won't give away his secrets so you'll have to ask him.
Greg
Masking Material?
Hey Cue Guru,
Can you expound on the masking material thing. That's something I am unfamiliar with it use and purpose.
Thanks,
Rick Geschrey
Hey Cue Guru,
Can you expound on the masking material thing. That's something I am unfamiliar with it use and purpose.
Thanks,
Rick Geschrey
Sure-
It's a one-part UV cured 'Acrylic' compound (but a bit more complicated than that).
It is sprayed on, cured with UV light, and then trimmed to give an edge if desired.
We use it for grit blast and plasma spray masking. It is also used heavily in the electronics industry for solder masking.
After blast and spray it is peeled off (typically cast iron or cast aluminum substrate in our case here). Some of the formulations peel easier than others; some change color when cured to see it is fully cured, others are removed with hot water rather than peeling.
Pretty cool stuff!
It's a one-part UV cured 'Acrylic' compound (but a bit more complicated than that).
It is sprayed on, cured with UV light, and then trimmed to give an edge if desired.
We use it for grit blast and plasma spray masking. It is also used heavily in the electronics industry for solder masking.
After blast and spray it is peeled off (typically cast iron or cast aluminum substrate in our case here). Some of the formulations peel easier than others; some change color when cured to see it is fully cured, others are removed with hot water rather than peeling.
Pretty cool stuff!
Epoxy Bubble Problem Solved!
Dick,
I too had problems with the bubbles but have solve it about a year ago and it has not bothered me since. I finally figured out that the bubbles only happened in the colder months.
I make sure that the temperature of the epoxy is above 70 degrees before I mix it. I also make sure my ambient temperature of the room and the cue is above 70 also. In the winter when my shop is a little colder at night I built a box with light bulbs and a thermostat to leave epoxied or recently finished cues in so they can cure at a constant temp above 70. All of my problems that haunted me and drove me crazy are gone.
I smear 3 coats of System West G5 waiting 4 minutes between coats. The 3 coats are thick enough to flat sand using 220, 400, 600 without ever burning through. I have been using the non clog paper for the last 6 months from Online Industrial and its the cats ass.
Darrin Hill has mentored me concerning my cue sealing & finishing and a few years ago he finally settled on using G5 after beta testing everything on the market. I was at his shop last week and he showed me a new cue he was shipping with points and an ebony front. The finish on that cue was beyond words. It was the best finish that can be achieved. I am friends with Joe Gold and grew up with him and he is the best dude in the world with a spray gun in hand and prepping cues worthy of collector's status. Darrin's cues are at that level. I am close to that level and am still working the bugs out in my buffing procedure but no longer have problems in substrate or stability of the cure. I think when you control the epoxy and clear coat temperature when curing, you get the clearest and deepest luster.
Controlling temperature is the key to sealing and finishing.
Rick Geschrey
Dick,
I too had problems with the bubbles but have solve it about a year ago and it has not bothered me since. I finally figured out that the bubbles only happened in the colder months.
I make sure that the temperature of the epoxy is above 70 degrees before I mix it. I also make sure my ambient temperature of the room and the cue is above 70 also. In the winter when my shop is a little colder at night I built a box with light bulbs and a thermostat to leave epoxied or recently finished cues in so they can cure at a constant temp above 70. All of my problems that haunted me and drove me crazy are gone.
I smear 3 coats of System West G5 waiting 4 minutes between coats. The 3 coats are thick enough to flat sand using 220, 400, 600 without ever burning through. I have been using the non clog paper for the last 6 months from Online Industrial and its the cats ass.
Darrin Hill has mentored me concerning my cue sealing & finishing and a few years ago he finally settled on using G5 after beta testing everything on the market. I was at his shop last week and he showed me a new cue he was shipping with points and an ebony front. The finish on that cue was beyond words. It was the best finish that can be achieved. I am friends with Joe Gold and grew up with him and he is the best dude in the world with a spray gun in hand and prepping cues worthy of collector's status. Darrin's cues are at that level. I am close to that level and am still working the bugs out in my buffing procedure but no longer have problems in substrate or stability of the cure. I think when you control the epoxy and clear coat temperature when curing, you get the clearest and deepest luster.
Controlling temperature is the key to sealing and finishing.
Rick Geschrey
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That's it in a nut shell right there. And, it doesn't matter what material you are spraying (or 'slathering') either- constant temperature of your substrate and material is the key. (right after proper preparation techniques)
This is not what I was referring to. I seldom had trouble with air bubbles in the epoxy. The trouble I've seen to often is problems that come later when the finish is bumped against an object and the epoxy breaks loose from the material it is covering, leaving a white spot where the adhesion is broke loose. It isn't chipped but it is no longer contacting the material under it.
I've used G-5 for about 10 years, although never as a base for a finish but finally ceased using it except to glue on ferrules. I've seen to many cases where deco-rings came loose or but caps come loose to trust the stuff for any adhesion use other than ferrules. Even on West Systems web-site they say that it should only be used for temporary use and not for permanent repairs. It may work great for you now and may hold up for long time, I don't know but I do know that I wasn't happy with the results of using epoxy as a base after a few years of use.
The best sealer I ever used was an epoxy however. It was very thin, was a two-part and was sprayed on just the same as finish. One thin coat and it stuck to everything and sealed Cocobolo, phenolics and metal rings just as easily as maple. Like all other things however there is large drawbacks with the material. It has a very short shelf life and shipping is expensive. It was costing me about 200.00 a quart of usable material. If you happen to live in Florida so that you can pick it up you could buy it in quart quantities very cheaply for others it is to expensive unless you can use 2 gallons (gal. A, gal. B) in 6 months or it's a looser. Also, so little is needed for each application. A tablespoon of each parts would be enough for a couple of cues and their shafts.
Dick
To put it rather bluntly, I'd rather have a sister in a whore house than any cyno on one of my cues.
Dick