Unacceptable 14.1 Worlds

[jay helfert]

Most of the credit for the resurgence should definitely go to the Winning One-Pocket book. I recall how Warren Costanza thanked me after his annual cross country trip explaining how it was the first time so many were willing to play the game. He's still around; just ask him. And if his word ain't enough for ya just look at the 1990 to 1992 popularity polls from the billiard magazines. The highest one-pocket had back then was 2% and 1% then zero then they didn't bother listing the one-pocket and snooker games anymore.

No question that your books were great for the game of One Pocket and gave many people new appreciation for the beauty of this game. I think the resurgence of popularity was also fueled by that fact that more major One Pocket events began to take place in the early 90's (thank Grady, Greg Sullivan, Jaymie Goodwin and others for this), and we also saw the emergence on one Efren Reyes as perhaps the most skilled player of all time. Efren's popularity was so huge, that his name alone would bring crowds to see any event he participated in. Just in case anyone forgot, Efren had his hands full with Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Hopkins, Varner, Daulton and a couple of others back then too. He wasn't winning those tournaments so easily, not becoming the dominating player until the late 90's.

 

[Eddie Robin]

Restoring vigor to game when its popularity in decline

If I recall correctly your books came out in '93 and '96, respectively. Are you saying that your two books were responsible for the resurgence of 1pocket?

Lou Figueroa

Of course not; my second W1P book (the new edition) and SMS book came out in 1997 if I remember correctly. Anyway, resurgence to a game can't occur while a game is rapidly gaining in popularity as it was from 1993 to present time. I'll have to look up the word for I've had but little formal schooling:
re·sur·gence (r-sûrjns)
n.
1. A continuing after interruption; a renewal.
2. A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor; a revival.

A great many accomplishments have made contributions to the one-pocket game, but only a few were main factors in reversing a period of decline lasting several years or longer. My best example is Johnston City. though many factors have contributed the increased popularity of one-pocket over the years since the 1800s, few were able to reverse a decline and I'd consider the Jansco Tournaments the best example of events that did so.

My claim, was simply that my first W1P book made available in early 1993 happened to be published at a time when the game of one-pocket was in a severe decline (during 1990, 1991, 1992 for sure) and it was obviously, at the very least, the main factor of those that reversed the decline in popularity of the one-pocket game.

There was a one-pocket tournament that took place at that same point in time in Southern CA but none of the tournaments of those early days seemed more effective at preventing the game from going extinct, or at reversing the decline, that those run by Grady Mathews; he'd been running great events throughout 1990, 1991, 1992 and despite his heroic efforts the game had remained on a decline during that time. He just couldn't reverse the decline on his own.

Then there was the start of the great Kalamazoo tournaments much later that year or the next (received conflicting dates from various sources). Matt, who ran the Kalamazoo tournaments, with the help of Grady I believe, recently explained that the Kalamazoo tournaments had almost doubled in all ways from year to year but that first one was only a $2,000 or $3,000 added. Those tournaments just got bigger and better every year and they certainly deserve a great deal of credit for the then continued increase in the game' popularity.

As you well know I've certainly done a lot of work on the one-pocket forum to explain all this for you were the one who started the thread there that failed to represent what I've meant here.

 

[Eddie Robin]

You've got it ALMOST right, but no cigar.

No question that your books were great for the game of One Pocket and gave many people new appreciation for the beauty of this game. I think the resurgence of popularity was also fueled by that fact that more major One Pocket events began to take place in the early 90's (thank Grady, Greg Sullivan, Jaymie Goodwin and others for this), and we also saw the emergence on one Efren Reyes as perhaps the most skilled player of all time. Efren's popularity was so huge, that his name alone would bring crowds to see any event he participated in. Just in case anyone forgot, Efren had his hands full with Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Hopkins, Varner, Daulton and a couple of others back then too. He wasn't winning those tournaments so easily, not becoming the dominating player until the late 90's.

You've got it ALMOST right, but nooooo cigar.
The many events after those of the Jansco's certainly deserve credit but they failed to stop the steady decline of popularity as per the polls-surveys of the billiard magazines. Why don't ya just read my reply to Lou just before this one.

Meanwhile I will review once more what I'd originally said in this thread. I did so before and couldn't see anything wrong there. Could you point out which sentence or two was in error? Just realized how much work that would save me with replies as on the one-pocket forum. If I'd of handled it that way there it would have save me a ton of work. Please, just indicate which sentence or two was in error in my original post on this subject for if you cannot do that I'd rather just end discussing that subject.

Eddie Robin

 

[jay helfert]

You've got it ALMOST right, but nooooo cigar.
The many events after those of the Jansco's certainly deserve credit but they failed to stop the steady decline of popularity as per the polls-surveys of the billiard magazines. Why don't ya just read my reply to Lou just before this one.

Meanwhile I will review once more what I'd originally said in this thread. I did so before and couldn't see anything wrong there. Could you point out which sentence or two was in error? Just realized how much work that would save me with replies as on the one-pocket forum. If I'd of handled it that way there it would have save me a ton of work. Please, just indicate which sentence or two was in error in my original post on this subject for if you cannot do that I'd rather just end discussing that subject.

Eddie Robin

I never said that you were in error about anything. In fact I credited you for writing the two seminal treastises on One Pocket. Both your books are masterpeices in my opinion. But to say that "W1P deserves most of the credit for the resurgence of popularity in One Pocket" is a pretty bold and self serving statement. In 1991 Grady put on a One Pocket tournament in Reno that attracted 110 players and brought crowds of people to watch the matches every day. All the big names and many of the lesser known players showed up as well. It was a great tournament well before there was a W1P book.

In 1994 I put on an All Around event in Los Angeles (it wasn't Grady) and attracted a very strong 77 man field in the One Pocket division. The crowds were the biggest during this segment of the event. I have been around the pool scene for a long time and One Pocket has always been a very popular game among players and fans. That fact has never changed. It is the second most played money game after 9-Ball, and that may be a close call today. Polls be damned, One Pocket has ALWAYS been a very popular game in pool halls across America.

No Eddie, you didn't save One Pocket. It didn't need saving. One Pocket has been alive and well ever since Hayden Lingo invented it. Or was it you that invented One Pocket?

 

[lfigueroa]

Of course not; my second W1P book (the new edition) and SMS book came out in 1997 if I remember correctly. Anyway, resurgence to a game can't occur while a game is rapidly gaining in popularity as it was from 1993 to present time. I'll have to look up the word for I've had but little formal schooling:
re·sur·gence (r-sûrjns)
n.
1. A continuing after interruption; a renewal.
2. A restoration to use, acceptance, activity, or vigor; a revival.

A great many accomplishments have made contributions to the one-pocket game, but only a few were main factors in reversing a period of decline lasting several years or longer. My best example is Johnston City. though many factors have contributed the increased popularity of one-pocket over the years since the 1800s, few were able to reverse a decline and I'd consider the Jansco Tournaments the best example of events that did so.

My claim, was simply that my first W1P book made available in early 1993 happened to be published at a time when the game of one-pocket was in a severe decline (during 1990, 1991, 1992 for sure) and it was obviously, at the very least, the main factor of those that reversed the decline in popularity of the one-pocket game.

There was a one-pocket tournament that took place at that same point in time in Southern CA but none of the tournaments of those early days seemed more effective at preventing the game from going extinct, or at reversing the decline, that those run by Grady Mathews; he'd been running great events throughout 1990, 1991, 1992 and despite his heroic efforts the game had remained on a decline during that time. He just couldn't reverse the decline on his own.

Then there was the start of the great Kalamazoo tournaments much later that year or the next (received conflicting dates from various sources). Matt, who ran the Kalamazoo tournaments, with the help of Grady I believe, recently explained that the Kalamazoo tournaments had almost doubled in all ways from year to year but that first one was only a $2,000 or $3,000 added. Those tournaments just got bigger and better every year and they certainly deserve a great deal of credit for the then continued increase in the game' popularity.

As you well know I've certainly done a lot of work on the one-pocket forum to explain all this for you were the one who started the thread there that failed to represent what I've meant here.

As I have said: 1pocket was alive and well before your books came out. Your first and subsequent book were *part* of a general resurgence of the game supported by tournaments like Johnston City, Roanoke, Philadelphia, and culminating with Matt Rosendaul's US Opens, and the coverage of these events by Accu-Stats. (I don't believe Grady was in on the Open tournaments. Matt ran them with a fellow named Ed, whose last name escapes me at the moment, but who had a copy of WOP at one of the Opens and graciously allowed me, as one of the players, to sign it.)

*No valid* proof exists that there was a sudden resurgence, or kickstart of the game in 1993 and there is certainly *nothing* to specifically tie the publication of your book to the increasing popularity of the game during that general period other than that it was *a part* of a confluence of events in the 90's.

The surveys you keep citing to support your claims -- the P&B magazine "readers polls" -- in terms of statistically validity, *are ca-ca.*

Having said all that, your books (including your 3C tome) are a tremendous accomplishment and a huge addition to the game's canon.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Eddie Robin]

You ignore the polls & provide opinions; WHY!

As I have said: 1pocket was alive and well before your books came out. Your first and subsequent book were *part* of a general resurgence of the game supported by tournaments like Johnston City, Roanoke, Philadelphia, and culminating with Matt Rosendaul's US Opens, and the coverage of these events by Accu-Stats. (I don't believe Grady was in on the Open tournaments. Matt ran them with a fellow named Ed, whose last name escapes me at the moment, but who had a copy of WOP at one of the Opens and graciously allowed me, as one of the players, to sign it.)

*No valid* proof exists that there was a sudden resurgence, or kickstart of the game in 1993 and there is certainly *nothing* to specifically tie the publication of your book to the increasing popularity of the game during that general period other than that it was *a part* of a confluence of events in the 90's.

The surveys you keep citing to support your claims -- the P&B magazine "readers polls" -- in terms of statistically validity, *are ca-ca.*

Having said all that, your books (including your 3C tome) are a tremendous accomplishment and a huge addition to the game's canon.

Lou Figueroa

Stop with all the talk about how wonderful my books are. Stop with all the talk about what came after 1993 for I'm agreeing that the game was already expanding in popularity then. We are not supposed to be discussing all the things that were great for the game over a number of years; stop with all those distractions from the point I'm making here which is the point I've been making from the very beginning.

You prefer to ignore the polls & provide opinions instead despite a look at the statistics over the years compared to those most currently available that actually seem to indicate that those polls and surveys were actually pretty accurate after all. However, even if they were so wrong that the numbers should be halved or doubled, the fact remains the one-pocket game was in a decline 'til 1993 and so nothing that came before 1993 lifted its popularity and all that came afterwards was during a period of expansion. Soooo take a look at what happened in 1993 and stop trying to avoid the obvious! You guys are ridiculous; you can't possibly be still claim or indicate that you still do not understand my point.
SOMETHING HAPPENED IN EARLY 1993 THAT REVERSED THE DECLINE IN POPULARITY SO WHAT WAS IT IF NOT MY FIRST EDITION W1P BOOK?

I'm perfectly willing to admit the polls-surveys may not be as accurate as we'd like, BUT opinions and/or talk about events that took place in the years that game was going down? That makes no sense.

 

[Eddie Robin]

Stop with all the talk about how wonderful my books are. Stop with all the talk about what came after 1993 for I'm agreeing that the game was already expanding in popularity then. We are not supposed to be discussing all the things that were great for the game over a number of years; stop with all those distractions from the point I'm making here which is the point I've been making from the very beginning.

You prefer to ignore the polls & provide opinions instead despite a look at the statistics over the years compared to those most currently available that actually seem to indicate that those polls and surveys were actually pretty accurate after all. However, even if they were so wrong that the numbers should be halved or doubled, the fact remains the one-pocket game was in a decline 'til 1993 and so nothing that came before 1993 lifted its popularity and all that came afterwards was during a period of expansion. Soooo take a look at what happened in 1993 and stop trying to avoid the obvious! You guys are ridiculous; you can't possibly be still claiming or indicating that you still do not understand my point.

SOMETHING HAPPENED IN EARLY 1993 THAT REVERSED THE DECLINE IN POPULARITY SO WHAT WAS IT IF NOT MY FIRST EDITION W1P BOOK?

I'm perfectly willing to admit the polls-surveys may not be as accurate as we'd like, BUT opinions and/or talk about events that took place in the years that game was going down? That makes no sense.

I've made 4 claims as follows:

1. My first book on WOP was published in early 1993; I'll assume that this claim is not in question.

2. I claim the game of one-pocket was in continual decline, previous to 1993, in the years 1990, 1991, & 1992 if not even earlier on due to magazine poll-survey statistics.

3. I claim that the game of one-pocket was gaining in popularity in the years after 1993.

4. I therefore claim that my W1P book caused a reversal of the decline in popularity of the one-pocket game in 1993.

I've read a number of opinions, beliefs, etc. already. I no longer wish to argue the above claims without someone producing evidence that I'm wrong. Yup, evidence!

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

I've read a number of opinions, beliefs, etc. already. I no longer wish to argue the above claims without someone producing evidence that I'm wrong. Yup, evidence!

Good, maybe you will disappear.

 

[Eddie Robin]

What could possibly be you beef with me?

Good, maybe you will disappear.

That was a fairly hostile statement? You know my name, what's yours? What could possibly be your beef with me? What is it that you disapprove of?

Eddie Robin

 

[macguy]

I've read a number of opinions, beliefs, etc. already. I no longer wish to argue the above claims without someone producing evidence that I'm wrong. Yup, evidence!

I would say before the internet and a forum like this, most people began getting on line around the late 90's; Few people ever heard of your books period. I remember seeing you sitting in the lobby in Vegas at a straight pool tournament trying to sell your books years ago and they were not selling like hot cakes.

Claiming you are personally responsible for the popularity of one pocket is ridiculous. The only evidence anyone needs is their own common sense. How many books were ever even printed? How many people on this, the most informed billiard forum in the world, own your books or have ever read or seem one in person?

Reminds me of Al Gore claiming he invented the internet.

 

[lfigueroa]

You prefer to ignore the polls & provide opinions instead despite a look at the statistics over the years compared to those most currently available that actually seem to indicate that those polls and surveys were actually pretty accurate after all.

With the polls again, oy vey.

"The polls" you keep referring to are the Pool and Billiard Magazine Annual Readers Poll.

In your average room, with say 50 players, *maybe* three guys subscribed to P&B. Of those three guys, *maybe* one guy took the time to fill out the survey, tear it out of the magazine, stick it in an envelope, put a stamp on it, and send it it.

Whatever results they got out of those surveys is completely and totally worthless in terms of an accurate reflection of what was going on with the other 49 players in the room, or if you prefer, the vast majority of players across the country. Double, triple, quadruple the numbers and it doesn't matter because the numbers are so flawed to begin with -- all one of those polls tells you is about what was going on with the very small handful of guys that got the magazine and decided to participate.

The rest of the guys in the room were busy playing 1pocket ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

Stop with all the talk about how wonderful my books are. Stop with all the talk about what came after 1993 for I'm agreeing that the game was already expanding in popularity then. We are not supposed to be discussing all the things that were great for the game over a number of years; stop with all those distractions from the point I'm making here which is the point I've been making from the very beginning.

You prefer to ignore the polls & provide opinions instead despite a look at the statistics over the years compared to those most currently available that actually seem to indicate that those polls and surveys were actually pretty accurate after all. However, even if they were so wrong that the numbers should be halved or doubled, the fact remains the one-pocket game was in a decline 'til 1993 and so nothing that came before 1993 lifted its popularity and all that came afterwards was during a period of expansion. Soooo take a look at what happened in 1993 and stop trying to avoid the obvious! You guys are ridiculous; you can't possibly be still claim or indicate that you still do not understand my point.
SOMETHING HAPPENED IN EARLY 1993 THAT REVERSED THE DECLINE IN POPULARITY SO WHAT WAS IT IF NOT MY FIRST EDITION W1P BOOK?

I'm perfectly willing to admit the polls-surveys may not be as accurate as we'd like, BUT opinions and/or talk about events that took place in the years that game was going down? That makes no sense.

God bless you Eddie for writing three great books, but NO ONE was buying them in 1993! And I mean NO ONE! I remember you asking me to buy a case of books (100) at wholesale ($20 each), just so you could pay your printing costs (and I did!). It took me a couple of years to sell those books, one at a time. As Lou mentioned, the popularity of your One Pocket books didn't really take off until the late 90's.

Actually I think it was the One Pocket tournament that I put on in 1994 that attracted all the top players, that sparked renewed interest in the game. So I will now officially take full credit for saving One Pocket! No need to thank me for creating the climate to help you sell your books, just send me another case sometime soon. :thumbup:

 

[Eddie Robin]

Good, maybe you will disappear.

Why so rude? If you have a reason just tell me what it is.

 

[Eddie Robin]

With the polls again, oy vey.

"The polls" you keep referring to are the Pool and Billiard Magazine Annual Readers Poll.

In your average room, with say 50 players, *maybe* three guys subscribed to P&B. Of those three guys, *maybe* one guy took the time to fill out the survey, tear it out of the magazine, stick it in an envelope, put a stamp on it, and send it it.

Whatever results they got out of those surveys is completely and totally worthless in terms of an accurate reflection of what was going on with the other 49 players in the room, or if you prefer, the vast majority of players across the country. Double, triple, quadruple the numbers and it doesn't matter because the numbers are so flawed to begin with -- all one of those polls tells you is about what was going on with the very small handful of guys that got the magazine and decided to participate.

The rest of the guys in the room were busy playing 1pocket ;-)

Lou Figueroa

They told me you guys moved over to the other thread. I put my first scan on a post over there; you may find it interesting. You brought what I'd put in a post here over on AZBs over to the one-pocket forum and used it to start a thread misrepresenting me throughout that thread. You started to look more and more foolish because of how you were continually twisting all I'd explained for the purpose of making me foolish. You were so obviously wrong and looked so foolish over there that you escaped your own thread and came here again. Get back there and face the music; they're only first beginning to recognize what an instigator you are. I've been kept fairly busy as it is with the two threads over there and since there's strength in numbers, you came back here and I was told Helfert was here with ya.

Anyone on this forum that cares to find the truth about what's been going on with these guys over the past several days just pay a visit to onepocket.org.
I've been up against more than I . . . never had the time to count them -- maybe 25 different guys attempting make me seem foolish. Like a mob; games of billiard, once for gentlemen has gone through some really bad changes. Many want our games to be like tennis and golf, well it can't possibly happen unless we clean up our act. too much unethical conduct.

I've provided a list of my claims earlier on this thread. select whichever of those claims and prove how ithey're wrong or just realize that neither of us has concrete proof. I've got stats based on approximately 2oo people per survey and you have opinions and judgment calls. If ya can't do that, then you can simply hold on to you opinions and I'll hold on to my claims until someone comes along with a logical reason for me to change my mind.

Anyone on this forum happen to have been at the 1993 Southern California tournament; the one in which Steve Cook won the one-pocket section by one ball when hill-hill vs. Mark Tadd and Mark Tadd won the other two sections? Please contact me at (702) 953-5845; if I'm not there I'll return your call. Depending on whether you were there and what you can recall it might be well worth your while.

 

[Eddie Robin]

God bless you Eddie for writing three great books, but NO ONE was buying them in 1993! And I mean NO ONE!

Ridiculous statement.

I remember you asking me to buy a case of books (100) at wholesale ($20 each), just so you could pay your printing costs (and I did!).

Who got the best of that deal? I never complained but you got various titles of my books for $20 each. (I know that $20 is about right but don't have the papers in front of me now). You somehow make like I got the best of the deal. I gave you a great deal I now wish i'd a given it to someone who would have appreciated it.

I'd always looked to give you good deals because I'd thought you were a friend. Recall time I'd had 4 books for sale when the prices were sky high, especially on the W1P books and since needed money for the rent walked over to you and offered them for a bit less than half price, $100 per book, and you then offered me $60 each? What a great friend you were. Oh there were others there that know I'd walked over to someone else and sold all 4 books. I wanted you to have a good deal and you wanted to rob me. You recall what I'd told ya before I walked away? Don't ever forget it! Don't get too close.

It took me a couple of years to sell those books, one at a time. As Lou mentioned, the popularity of your One Pocket books didn't really take off until the late 90's.


How can you continue to lie so much is beyond me. Don't you realize that I could dig up record of sales and prove you a liar? Late 90s? I went out of business around mid 1997! You obviously don't know what your talking about.

Actually I think it was the One Pocket tournament that I put on in 1994 that attracted all the top players, that sparked renewed interest in the game. So I will now officially take full credit for saving One Pocket! No need to thank me for creating the climate to help you sell your books, just send me another case sometime soon. :thumbup:

Don't you realize people know about you by now? Some of those on onepocket.org have certainly found out.

You know what your doing making posts here while I'm on the other forum sometimes up against several at a time. the tide is finally turning; people are wising up little at a time to the character assassination job on one who puts out better books than your group of authors and columnist.

No more time for you for gotta see got a few more like you making posts on the the other two threads at the other forum. Dirty tactics by unethical people AND it is becoming quite obvious to others; just take a look over there and find out. One guy thinks Lou might hide out here for quite a spell but I doubt that for he ain't that sharp.

Eddie robin

 

[lfigueroa]

They told me you guys moved over to the other thread. I put my first scan on a post over there; you may find it interesting. You brought what I'd put in a post here over on AZBs over to the one-pocket forum and used it to start a thread misrepresenting me throughout that thread. You started to look more and more foolish because of how you were continually twisting all I'd explained for the purpose of making me foolish. You were so obviously wrong and looked so foolish over there that you escaped your own thread and came here again. Get back there and face the music; they're only first beginning to recognize what an instigator you are. I've been kept fairly busy as it is with the two threads over there and since there's strength in numbers, you came back here and I was told Helfert was here with ya.

Anyone on this forum that cares to find the truth about what's been going on with these guys over the past several days just pay a visit to onepocket.org.
I've been up against more than I . . . never had the time to count them -- maybe 25 different guys attempting make me seem foolish. Like a mob; games of billiard, once for gentlemen has gone through some really bad changes. Many want our games to be like tennis and golf, well it can't possibly happen unless we clean up our act. too much unethical conduct.

I've provided a list of my claims earlier on this thread. select whichever of those claims and prove how ithey're wrong or just realize that neither of us has concrete proof. I've got stats based on approximately 2oo people per survey and you have opinions and judgment calls. If ya can't do that, then you can simply hold on to you opinions and I'll hold on to my claims until someone comes along with a logical reason for me to change my mind.

Anyone on this forum happen to have been at the 1993 Southern California tournament; the one in which Steve Cook won the one-pocket section by one ball when hill-hill vs. Mark Tadd and Mark Tadd won the other two sections? Please contact me at (702) 953-5845; if I'm not there I'll return your call. Depending on whether you were there and what you can recall it might be well worth your while.

lol. You don't need anyones help -- you do foolish pretty well all on your own.

And, while I tried to move the 1pocket part of this discussion over to one pocket.org, you kept it alive here. Oh, and I posted the same post you quoted here, over there, at the same time. So knock yourself out: here, there, or both.

And the readers poll is, even with 200 *readers,* is still not an accurate sampling of *pool players* in this country. It is still ca-ca and proves nothing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Eddie Robin]

lol. You don't need anyones help -- you do foolish pretty well all on your own.

And, while I tried to move the 1pocket part of this discussion over to one pocket.org, you kept it alive here. Oh, and I posted the same post you quoted here, over there, at the same time. So knock yourself out: here, there, or both.

And the readers poll is, even with 200 *readers,* is still not an accurate sampling of *pool players* in this country. It is still ca-ca and proves nothing.

Lou Figueroa

"And, while I tried to move the 1pocket part of this discussion over to one pocket.org, you kept it alive here."

I see it as the other way around but no need for me start reading again all the posts we've made here. If you don't mention me or refer to me here again, nether will I. I'd imagine that figures to also get the approval of a great many on this forum.

I'd suspect the same should go for Helfert but I'll have to see what he does next here, if anything.

Eddie robin