Understanding Cue Shaft Flexibility

7stud said:
If you pick a side, say a little to the right, and you miss and hit center ball, then what?
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Then nothing... as in neither effect of hitting a little to the left or right.
7stud said:
Picking a side doesn't help things.
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Sure it 'can'... While center ball manifests no english on the CB, and thereby suffers no effects of applying english on the CB. Aiming center ball and randomly hitting either left or right, will produce english and subsequent effects polar opposite to one another.
7stud said:
If you can accurately hit a little right every time, then you don't need to pick a side, instead you can pick center ball.
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Ok, so what's "a little"...? If the notion is that "a little" is a specific amount and you can consistently reproduce whatever "a little" is. Then yes I wholeheartedly agree you'd be better off aiming center ball. However in reality, the overwhelming vast majority of players cannot consistently hit the CB exactly where they want. So what's better..? A small variation of the same english, or a random english of varying direction..?
7stud said:
It doesn't matter what your margin of error is when aiming at a spot on the cue ball, picking a side does nothing to help your pocketing accuracy.
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Agree... poor aim is poor aim and nothing you can do to a CB will alter you're mistake. However it's not about accuracy. It's about accepting that humans are fallible and resigning yourself to the devil you know, rather than rolling the dice.
7stud said:
That is the same hogwash that CJ packages up as TOI--a system that he claims makes the pocket bigger. It's simply bullshit.
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I agree with the former entirely. The latter I believe is an opinion based on absolutes. Which isn't necessarily wrong, but not rooted in reality.
 
The_JV said:
However in reality, the overwhelming vast majority of players cannot consistently hit the CB exactly where they want. So what's better..? A small variation of the same english, or a random english of varying direction..?
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If I aim at the center of the pocket, and I aim to hit the center of the cue ball:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit the center of the cue ball, then the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.
2. If I miss the center of the cue ball slightly to the left, then the object ball will be thrown slightly to the right, and the object ball will go in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I miss the cue ball slightly to the right, then the object ball with be thrown slightly to the left, and the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

If I pick a side, say slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball, and I aim at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw to the left:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball as planned, then because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw, the object ball will go in the center of the pocket.
2. If I hit center ball, there won't be any throw, and because I aimed at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go straight in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I hit more to the right on the cue ball than I planned, then the object ball will be thrown more to the left, but because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

It doesn't matter how many tips "slightly" is from the center of the cue ball--you will have the same amount of error whether you try to hit center ball or you pick a side.
 
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7stud said:
If I aim at the center of the pocket, and I aim to hit the center of the cue ball:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit the center of the cue ball, then the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.
2. If I miss the center of the cue ball slightly to the left, then the object ball will be thrown slightly to the right, and the object ball will go in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I miss the cue ball slightly to the right, then the object ball with be thrown slightly to the left, and the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

If I pick a side, say slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball, and I aim at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw to the left:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball as planned, then because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw, the object ball will go in the center of the pocket.
2. If I hit center ball, there won't be any throw, and because I aimed at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go straight in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I hit more to the right on the cue ball than I planned, then the object ball will be thrown to the left, but because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

It doesn't matter how many tips "slightly" is from the center of the cue ball--you will have the same amount of error whether you try to hit center ball or you pick a side.
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If you couldn't tell, I increased the font of the additional condition that validates your argument. I don't disagree with anything you've posted above.

What I've been repeating is that erring toward a consistent side of the CB without altering anything else, is better than hoping that you don't generate a random direction of english. If you aim to a specific point and cue center ball. There is a small chance the shot will be perfect but the odds are the average player will induce random throw which will cause a miss in either direction. If you aim to specific point and err to a specific side of the CB, then you know you will either hit that specific point, or miss it to only one side.

There's no argument about range of possible OB deviation between the two scenarios. My contention is that a center CB hit allows for three outcomes, (direct hit & either left/right). Whereas as erring to a giving side of the CB, provides only 2, (direct hit & erred induced throw).

Now no one, at least myself, isn't suggesting the "err method" increases the target zone. Just that I know I can aim to miss, and throw it to pot, AND the resulting tangent will take me in this direction after to contact to some degree.
 
The_JV said:
What I've been repeating is that erring toward a consistent side of the CB without altering anything else
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If you pick a side, and you don't change your aim to account for the throw, then your pocketing will be worse than if you try to hit center ball and aim at the center of the pocket:

If I pick a side, say slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball, and I aim at the center of the pocket:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball as planned, then the throw to the left will direct the object ball into the left side of the pocket.
2. If I miss to the left of my aim point on the cue ball, then I will hit center ball, and there won't be any throw, and because I aimed at the center of the pocket, the object ball will go straight in the center of the pocket.
3. If I hit more to the right on the cue ball than I planned, then the object ball will be thrown more to the left, and because I was aiming at the center of the pocket, the object ball will miss the pocket to the left.

In that scenario, by not altering your aim to account for the throw, you will give up the right side of the pocket.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
But don't the amounts of squirt and spin increase/decrease linearly as the tip moves away from or toward center ball? If so, then wouldn't the error from 1/8" off center be the same as 1/8" more/less offset?

pj
chgo
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I believe it is a tightening curve when dealing with from the center outward if graphed. It isn't a straight line. The reverse would be true if working from the outside to center of the ball. We are dealing with basically a straight line and an arc. The line of cue stick travel stays close to the same while the arc angle gets more and more acute as we move from center.

The different errors in aim on the cue ball don't create the same dispersion of the cue ball's final resting place after the shot. To exaggerate things a bit hit center ball and a tenth of an inch to each side. Now go 1/4 of the way to the edge of the cue ball and hit a tenth of an inch to each side. The error has a greater effect out there towards the edge of the cue ball. The same is true when not hitting the intended spot at center or slightly off center too, just not as obvious.

I keep reading about people having error in their contact point. When talking variance this isn't something I find to be true. If I haven't hit a ball for a few months I will hit 1/8" high and 1/16" left. Been that way for years. When my stroke is tuned up I hit exactly where intended as closely as can be measured by eye ball. If someone wants to say that less than .003" matters which is about what I can see with a naked eye, it matters but not as much as many other variances. Chalk, etc.

My experience is that people can hit exactly where they intend to when they try too. Most people don't try to hit an exact point on the cue ball when looking at object ball last, or that is what I found in limited testing. When they tried to, they did hit an exact spot.

I will pull a Smorg and wait with bait on my breath to see that .003 error at center ball matters more than .003 error a few hundredths out from center. Just to muddy the waters or make people think, error to the outside matters more than error to the inside. However, there is a certain amount of self compensation when hitting on the outside due to curvature of the cue ball and tip. Because of compression of the tip, we get the most compensation when erring from trying to hit center ball though, another feature that makes this best.

How many angels can sit on the head of a pin? The deeper we dive into the minutia of things the closer we come to making our heads explode to no real purpose. I have been tempted to run the design process on some of the claims but it takes a good bit of effort and I am too lazy to play lead right now.

Hu
 
7stud said:
If you pick a side, and you don't change your aim to account for the throw, then your pocketing will be worse than if you try to hit center ball and aim at the center of the pocket:
<snip>
In that scenario, by not altering your aim to account for the throw, you will give up the right side of the pocket.
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see below...
The_JV said:
Now no one, at least myself, isn't suggesting the "err method" increases the target zone. Just that I know I can aim to miss, and throw it to pot, AND the resulting tangent will take me in this direction after to contact to some degree.
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ShootingArts said:
I keep reading about people having error in their contact point. When talking variance this isn't something I find to be true. If I haven't hit a ball for a few months I will hit 1/8" high and 1/16" left. Been that way for years. When my stroke is tuned up I hit exactly where intended as closely as can be measured by eye ball. If someone wants to say that less than .003" matters which is about what I can see with a naked eye, it matters but not as much as many other variances. Chalk, etc.

My experience is that people can hit exactly where they intend to when they try too. Most people don't try to hit an exact point on the cue ball when looking at object ball last, or that is what I found in limited testing. When they tried to, they did hit an exact spot.
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I think you may be falling victim to what I used to when I first started on the forum. I'm not saying you're being a newb or anything. Just that >600 players are the exception, not the rule. Even at the 600 benchmark. Players struggle with consistency with tip placement.
 
Not rexactly a newb!(grin) Been focused on pool most of the time since the 1960's. While I gambled nightly I wasn't too serious about it unless I found myself needing the cash. Made a living playing pool for a few months here and there. Like many hobbies, I could do it seven days a week after working forty to sixty hours but having to go out and make a daily and weekly nut became a grind. A friend was one of the best knifemakers in the world. A six month to a year waiting list way back when, I asked him why he didn't do it for a living. Same thing, got to be a grind when he had to make knives.

As for the Net, I got on it in '88. I have been on this forum about twenty years and am getting close to twenty-thousand posts. Probably take a couple years to get there. Too many friends dead or left AZB.

My last regular hangout was Buffalo Billiards in New Orleans. That was where I did most of my testing and I have to admit that while fargo ratings weren't the thing they are today the typical players put in well over twenty hours a week so not run of the mill recreational shooters.

Hu
 
The_JV said:
the overwhelming vast majority of players cannot consistently hit the CB exactly where they want.
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I minimize my variation with my focus, both mental and visual. Mentally the strike is directed at the center of whitey or calculated variation from same. The visual provides the entry point and muscle or some sort of memory provides the predicted path and velocity. So uh? Practice Practice Practice. 🤷‍♂️
 
Brother Ron said:
These are not my conclusions....
I just found the reports from doing a little online research.
I'm thinking the scientists and professors doing these studies have a little better understanding of physics than you do??
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The very first thing everyone here must understand and accept is that absolutely everything you read on the interweb is FACT !!!!!!!!! No ifs, ands, or butts about it, just plain fact.





:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
7stud said:
If I aim at the center of the pocket, and I aim to hit the center of the cue ball:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit the center of the cue ball, then the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.
2. If I miss the center of the cue ball slightly to the left, then the object ball will be thrown slightly to the right, and the object ball will go in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I miss the cue ball slightly to the right, then the object ball with be thrown slightly to the left, and the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

If I pick a side, say slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball, and I aim at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw to the left:
1. If my aim is true, and I hit slightly to the right of the center of the cue ball as planned, then because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket to account for the throw, the object ball will go in the center of the pocket.
2. If I hit center ball, there won't be any throw, and because I aimed at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go straight in the right side of the pocket.
3. If I hit more to the right on the cue ball than I planned, then the object ball will be thrown more to the left, but because I was aiming at the right side of the pocket, the object ball will go in the left side of the pocket.

It doesn't matter how many tips "slightly" is from the center of the cue ball--you will have the same amount of error whether you try to hit center ball or you pick a side.
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I read a Jack Nicolas golf book where he states something similar--in general, Jack plays the fade (a very slight slice) for the same reasons you note--better overall results.
 
MitchAlsup said:
I read a Jack Nicolas golf book where he states something similar--in general, Jack plays the fade (a very slight slice) for the same reasons you note--better overall results.
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Maybe it's because he rather deal with a expected fade of some degree. Then the potential random occurrence of a slight hook.
 
In his retirement Jack still played in pro-ams with the fat cats. An executive for the company I worked for got in a foursome with Jack. He played well enough he won some senor tour events after he retired. Anyway, he hit a nice drive off the first tee, the other two hit, Jack went last. About a hundred yards further up the middle than anybody else. That was the announcement the executive was in for a long long day!

Hu
 
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