Unforseen benefit of TOI

TOI Sucks !!! Don't use it; don't anybody use it...Please; argue with everyone who even mentions TOI. I'm hoping every nit out there argues with TOI and I'll just go back on using it and taking the cash ! :)

I agree totally.

I wish CJ would just take his theories, say Alhoa & go jump down a volcano in Hawaii & never be seen or heard of again.

Maybe that'a a bit too harsh. Let me find some center balance.

Okay, I just wish CJ would keep this TOI baloney nonsense to himself.

If anyone I ever meet in person that wants to play, says they heard about this TOI method, I am not even going to discuss it with them. I am simply packing up my cue & leaving the building like Elvis.

I don't play pool where they talk such heresy.

:wink:
 
he said "are you kidding, I even deny I use it"....LoL

TOI Sucks !!! Don't use it; don't anybody use it...Please; argue with everyone who even mentions TOI. I'm hoping every nit out there argues with TOI and I'll just go back on using it and taking the cash ! :)

Yes, the ironic part - when players find out they usually want to keep it to themselves. I can certainly relate, I kept it secret for over 20 years, and won tons gambling.

I taught one player the touch of inside method and he used it to become one of the best money players in the country. He was ask a couple of weeks ago if he would come forward and talk about it and he said "are you kidding, I even deny I use it"....LoL ...I understand, and I know it's in his best interest. 'The Game is {Secretly} the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
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My offhand shooting has improved by 800%.

I cannot play the length of the table shots yet, but playing on a half table I just started firing the balls into the pocket with no sweat. Heck, I can even draw the cueball because my stroke has loosened up with the gain in confidence. My pockets on my 9' Diamond table are 4.25" so it was tough to make shots consistently, until TOI opened my eyes again. I didn't change my stance or anything - balls just starting going in with alarming accuracy.

I am wondering if any of you TOI advocates have experienced this? :)

Toi does work,
I used it a few times as of late. CJ knows what he is talking about. so now you can come to the worlds pool hall, Buffalo Billiards in metairie/ New Orleans, Louisiana and get plenty of action.
I like this thread it tells it like it is. How can people say something does not work unless they have tried it for themselves!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
I agree totally.

I wish CJ would just take his theories, say Alhoa & go jump down a volcano in Hawaii & never be seen or heard of again.

Maybe that'a a bit too harsh. Let me find some center balance.

Okay, I just wish CJ would keep this TOI baloney nonsense to himself.

If anyone I ever meet in person that wants to play, says they heard about this TOI method, I am not even going to discuss it with them. I am simply packing up my cue & leaving the building like Elvis.

I don't play pool where they talk such heresy.

:wink:

Cut it out, Mr English!!! I like CJ he is a great guy. But a secret is just that, a secret!! Now what?
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
<<<<<<<<<<<< believes this TOI is actually teaching most people to hit the true center of the cue ball for the first time :thumbup:

Nothing wrong with that!

I've been playing with it and that's my take. I don't even use the "three-part pocket system" and it's helped me. That means it works even without the supposed aid of controlled deflection and pocket zones.

Firming up the bridge hand helps with that as well, even with an open bridge IMO. I have a new measles CB on the way. That should give me a easier time seeing what happens when I get lazy and miss-hit the ball, putting unintended spin on it. Should up my position play as well. I'm praying it will, anyway.
 
Cut it out, Mr English!!! I like CJ he is a great guy. But a secret is just that, a secret!! Now what?
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.

Mr. Lock,

I was saying that in SARCASM, I was kidding in reference to the previous post.

See the wink symbol.

You should know me better than that.

Best Regards,
Rick
 
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Thank you CJ

I watched your toi dvd today after playing at a friends house. We have a weekly game, and I didn't want to throw anything new into the mix, but after we played, I came home and watched the dvd. It is definitely for intermediate players and above. I have some experience with beginners, and no way would they be able to get toi, or me be able to explain it. I have been playing pool for a while. I remember watching you at the Glass City Open in Toledo at the Portside Marriott. One of those places that you didn't want to go outside alone at night, but the hotel was nice. I am going to start working on toi tomorrow. Thank you for sharing it. I will let you know how I do, and will have a question or two, I'm sure. Please don't let the negetive people run you off.
 
One thing I have learned from trying out TOI when I have the time and patience is that I tend to have a poke stroke. From there it is a work in progress to get the mechanics of my stroke working, but it has shown me some of my flaws. It's (almost :( ) always good to uncover your flaws if you want to move on, so the journey begins.... or the end is nearer??? :wink:

Anyway, thank you CJ for the info. and for sharing. If the game was more important to me at this point, I'd be jumping all over this. But for now, I'll just let it sink in slowly.

td
 
I agree. I am farily sure that CJ does not have to be here on AZB. I know I and others do appreciate CJ being here.

This. I for one say THANKS CJ! You are indeed thick skinned. Just remember "water off a duck" for all these keyboard cowboys.

All you naysayers - just get the damn ppv and then work on it. I am a firm believer in ANYTHiNG that helps you to improve. And this does. Do I get out of line and have to change the angle with outside - of freaking course! Really -- quit speaking in superlatives like ALWAYS and NEVER. Really.....

And quit calling it ENGLISH - it is not. if the ball is spinning sideways much, chances you are not hitting it right!


TRUST the stroke. Do NOT poke. Accelerate.

Actually, I agree with English and others, I hope people I play with DO NOT incorporate TOI. Really I do.....
 
My level of play since working with TOI has been very measurable.

I cashed in 3 straight league tourneys upon using it just for a week or 2. Then I suffered a setback, right around the time that I changed tips. Once I re-dialed in for one of Jeff's DawgDud's......I'm right back in the thick of things.

I didn't fare as well in a tourney this weekend as I would have liked, but I ran a handful of racks. That's somewhat rare for me. I might only run once a week. So, multiples in one day was nice. Not to mention that I stone-cold ran over a couple of opponents who were ranked higher than I was. One was in the tourney. One was just for fun.

But, when you start getting glares, stares and complaints that you're underrated, you know you're on to something.

TOI works. At least for me. And my best friend. Hell, we WON 3 straight tourneys. He got double-dipped in his attempt for a 4-peat at a particular league room.

I'm really excited to continue dialing this in more and more to see where I am just 6 months from now.
 
If you are undercutting any balls using the Touch of Inside you are pivoting OR......

I don't understand your comment concerning long extreme cut shots. BTW, the trouble I was having with long shots was shooting off handed. But, indeed, may last stage of learning TOI is the long medium to extreme cut shots. I believe this will just take some more practice, and some more practice :grin:.

In your DVD, you state that when a cut angle becomes a half ball hit or more, then you use more inside english (two tips for example). But now you are telling me to line up center to center. Every example you have on the CD where more than a half ball hit is concerned, you state to simple go over two tips.

As you guys start to really understand the Touch of Inside and are hitting the cue ball more precisely there's a few levels you will go through. The first one will be that you have to use less and less "Inside" to produce the same results. This is because you are moving your cue to the Inside more accurately and precisely (as far as not pivoting, moving your cue parallel).

I usually tell the newer players, first experiencing the Touch of Inside to use more of an inside move than required due to everyone pivoting to some degree at the beginning. There's an instinct to follow through at the contact point, which actually REDUCES deflection (it's seems like it would be the opposite, it's not), and this leads to undercutting balls.

If you are undercutting any balls using the Touch of Inside you are pivoting OR still "aiming" at the "contact point".....there's no need to do this, you can follow through straight (in the direction of the object ball's center) and still over cut the ball slightly.

The key to the 3 part pocket system is slightly deflecting the cue ball and influencing the object ball to hit center pocket. This is your goal, to hit the center with the touch of inside because that's the only way you tell FOR SURE that you are properly aligned for the Inside of the pocket (the 1st of the 3 parts to the pocket).

The next levels have to do with long shots and maximum english TOI shots where you have to move the cue ball longer distances. I'll get into this later this week if anyone's interested. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
I think I'm going to wait until I finally get a low deflection shaft before I buy CJ's DVD. I hope it plays in bluray players or PS3's because I don't have any 'dvd' players anymore.
 
Mr. Lock,

I was saying that in SARCASM, I was kidding in reference to the previous post.

See the wink symbol.

You should know me better than that.

Best Regards,
Rick

Cut it out is a kidding saying too. If someone does something good I always say cut it out!! Now you got it...... Hang in there, Mr. English. You are the Man!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
I can't literally hit every shot the same, but I can get really close over time.....

This. I for one say THANKS CJ! You are indeed thick skinned. Just remember "water off a duck" for all these keyboard cowboys.

All you naysayers - just get the damn ppv and then work on it. I am a firm believer in ANYTHiNG that helps you to improve. And this does. Do I get out of line and have to change the angle with outside - of freaking course! Really -- quit speaking in superlatives like ALWAYS and NEVER. Really.....

And quit calling it ENGLISH - it is not. if the ball is spinning sideways much, chances you are not hitting it right!


TRUST the stroke. Do NOT poke. Accelerate.

Actually, I agree with English and others, I hope people I play with DO NOT incorporate TOI. Really I do.....

You don't have to (sarcastically) worry;) only a small percentage of the players will be willing to play a "different game". From my experience with road players, the ones that play this style game are the gamblers, if you don't play for money what I'm about to say won't be important to consider.

When ask how Champion players can play such a high level I will say "We don't play better than other players, we simply play a different type game," this is because I DON'T look at the table and pick the ideal shot for the situation. Sounds foolish doesn't it?

I understand, however, the question is "can you tell when someone is NOT shooting the "correct, easiest shot", and instead shooting the shot THEY want to shoot every time?"

There's two distinctly different philosophies how pool should be played:

1) That you look at the table and if the "best shot" is to use low/left english with a slow cue stick speed, that's what you should do. If the table tell you to hit the next shot with high/right english with a medium cue stick speed, then that's what you should do. The next shot says you don't need any english and you can just "slow roll" the shot with center "cue ball target," then that's what you should do. You ran the rack, it worked!!!
(this style is what is called the "I have to hit 4000 shots to play pool technique)

2) My philosophy's different with the Touch of Inside technique. I look at all three of these shots and FIND A WAY to use the TOI with a moderate cue stick speed in all three of these situations. I also run the rack, it worked for me as well!!! (this is the "I can hit handle any table situation with the shot that I prefer technique)

When I was gambling I really liked that most people play the first style of play I described. If they played the second style I could tell right away, and knew I was in for a long, difficult night, and I'd just have to play that type game better, I'd have to use TOI on EVERY SHOT to win.

Now, think about over the course of time how many more choices and calculations the first player (#1) is going to have to make, compared to the amount I"m making.

The only flaw is if I couldn't do all those shots with the Touch of Inside. However, I can and I've proven it over and over, and if anyone wants to set up a situation that it can't be done, just post it and I'll tell you how to do it.

You see I have a distinct advantage - I know every shot can be hit the same way, with just minor variations or adjustments. No one can literally hit every shot the same in a pool game, but after playing for 12 hours you will see a TOI player can get close. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
You don't have to (sarcastically) worry;) only a small percentage of the players will be willing to play a "different game". From my experience with road players, the ones that play this style game are the gamblers, if you don't play for money what I'm about to say won't be important to consider.

When ask how Champion players can play such a high level I will say "We don't play better than other players, we simply play a different type game," this is because I DON'T look at the table and pick the ideal shot for the situation. Sounds foolish doesn't it?

I understand, however, the question is "can you tell when someone is NOT shooting the "correct, easiest shot", and instead shooting the shot THEY want to shoot every time?"

There's two distinctly different philosophies how pool should be played:

1) That you look at the table and if the "best shot" is to use low/left english with a slow cue stick speed, that's what you should do. If the table tell you to hit the next shot with high/right english with a medium cue stick speed, then that's what you should do. The next shot says you don't need any english and you can just "slow roll" the shot with center "cue ball target," then that's what you should do. You ran the rack, it worked!!!
(this style is what is called the "I have to hit 4000 shots to play pool technique)

2) My philosophy's different with the Touch of Inside technique. I look at all three of these shots and FIND A WAY to use the TOI with a moderate cue stick speed in all three of these situations. I also run the rack, it worked for me as well!!! (this is the "I can hit handle any table situation with the shot that I prefer technique)

When I was gambling I really liked that most people play the first style of play I described. If they played the second style I could tell right away, and knew I was in for a long, difficult night, and I'd just have to play that type game better, I'd have to use TOI on EVERY SHOT to win.

Now, think about over the course of time how many more choices and calculations the first player (#1) is going to have to make, compared to the amount I"m making.

The only flaw is if I couldn't do all those shots with the Touch of Inside. However, I can and I've proven it over and over, and if anyone wants to set up a situation that it can't be done, just post it and I'll tell you how to do it.

You see I have a distinct advantage - I know every shot can be hit the same way, with just minor variations or adjustments. No one can literally hit every shot the same in a pool game, but after playing for 12 hours you will see a TOI player can get close. ;) 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ when you were on the road gambling how many people did you come across that actually hit with TOI? I was by my local bar hitting balls practing all by myself tonight. A guy came up to me and said I"m better than you. I said you probably are doesn't take much to be better than me. He wanted to play a race to 7, 8 ball for 500. I told him I don't gamble; finally he wittled me down to 50 for a race. He broke didn't get anything and I ran the set. Three weeks ago if I could run 1 in 7 I would have been lucky and only have had a 2 pack once in my life. Now if this ain't sayin something about TOI I don't know what is. Oh by the way it was done on a barbox. I'm the student !
 
He called it "floating his stone," or "floating his rock".

CJ when you were on the road gambling how many people did you come across that actually hit with TOI? I was by my local bar hitting balls practing all by myself tonight. A guy came up to me and said I"m better than you. I said you probably are doesn't take much to be better than me. He wanted to play a race to 7, 8 ball for 500. I told him I don't gamble; finally he wittled me down to 50 for a race. He broke didn't get anything and I ran the set. Three weeks ago if I could run 1 in 7 I would have been lucky and only have had a 2 pack once in my life. Now if this ain't sayin something about TOI I don't know what is. Oh by the way it was done on a barbox. I'm the student !

That's awesome!! Yes, the Touch Of Inside is brutal on a bar table. As you can tell, the cue ball plays heavier because you're basically neutralizing the contact spin and creating a "floating cue ball". This used to also be devastating with a big, or metal flake cue ball.

Omaha John (Shuput) was the first one I ever saw use this technique, and he was a master with the "mud ball," or "big ball". He called it "floating his stone," or "floating his rock".

I know by watching and playing them, however, I'll refrain from commenting on anyone in particular. They may not even be aware, but if you watch them you will see that they come down to the Inside of the cue ball every time. Then if they generate the NO SPIN (floating) cue ball it's a sign of what they're really doing. You can't see it in the stroke, just the "effect".

The reason it's unusual is many of these players did this naturally, and didn't really know what they were doing. They just did it and it worked so they kept doing it. As far as getting a Champion player to explain what they are doing, it's tough, it took me MANY hours (of studying) to understand these techniques, not to mention degrees in NLP, martial arts, hypnosis, Silva, etc. to be able to communicate and teach them effectively. The main issue is - describing consciously a subconscious activity{for a champion player} is tricky, and in many cases impossible.

I basically put my own playing on a shelf for a few years to be able to make the transformation to teach and create the meta-model for the Touch Of Inside Technique and my other 'Ultimate Pool Secrets', and 'Billiards Inside Secrets' (although I made 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' the year after winning the ESPN World Championships).

Keep up the good playing my friend, there's more to come, I have a few more "tricks from the road-playing days" I will share in the near future. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
As you guys start to really understand the Touch of Inside and are hitting the cue ball more precisely there's a few levels you will go through. The first one will be that you have to use less and less "Inside" to produce the same results. This is because you are moving your cue to the Inside more accurately and precisely (as far as not pivoting, moving your cue parallel).

I usually tell the newer players, first experiencing the Touch of Inside to use more of an inside move than required due to everyone pivoting to some degree at the beginning. There's an instinct to follow through at the contact point, which actually REDUCES deflection (it's seems like it would be the opposite, it's not), and this leads to undercutting balls.

If you are undercutting any balls using the Touch of Inside you are pivoting OR still "aiming" at the "contact point".....there's no need to do this, you can follow through straight (in the direction of the object ball's center) and still over cut the ball slightly.

The key to the 3 part pocket system is slightly deflecting the cue ball and influencing the object ball to hit center pocket. This is your goal, to hit the center with the touch of inside because that's the only way you tell FOR SURE that you are properly aligned for the Inside of the pocket (the 1st of the 3 parts to the pocket).

The next levels have to do with long shots and maximum english TOI shots where you have to move the cue ball longer distances. I'll get into this later this week if anyone's interested. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

I have hard time following the paragraphs highlighted above. It sounds as if they are wrong statements, or confusing.

I experimented a lot with cue parallel and pivot it only make a difference with more than tip of english! If some one miss by under cutting it could be one of five, wrong aim, CB skidded, did not hit CB with enough TOI, tip went below center and causes unintentional stun, finally slightly elevated and did not hit hard enough. As the CB gets further from OB, i'd say stun maybe out of the picture unless CB hit extremely fast.
 
He's saying people "steer" their cue back to center ball out of habit. So they are lining up with TOI, but then subconsciously steering the cue back to center ball when they make their final stroke.

TOI requires some deflection, so if you steer the cue back to center, the cue ball doesn't deflect, thus under cutting the object ball.

Sounds reasonable answer. Thanks
 
CJ when you were on the road gambling how many people did you come across that actually hit with TOI? I was by my local bar hitting balls practing all by myself tonight. A guy came up to me and said I"m better than you. I said you probably are doesn't take much to be better than me. He wanted to play a race to 7, 8 ball for 500. I told him I don't gamble; finally he wittled me down to 50 for a race. He broke didn't get anything and I ran the set. Three weeks ago if I could run 1 in 7 I would have been lucky and only have had a 2 pack once in my life. Now if this ain't sayin something about TOI I don't know what is. Oh by the way it was done on a barbox. I'm the student !

A one rack runner to a 7 pack runner
That is the most amazing thing I ever heard



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