Unique Cuemaker vs Deluxe cue smith?

I don't have to indicate a shaft that I build from partial because my machining schedule
dictates that the hole is DNP center. Everything is done off the center.
When installing a pin, particularly doing a swap-out, the work gets indicated.
Regardless of where the pin was when the cue came in, it leaves my shop in the center.
I also used to rely on the visual and was quite good at it, I was young, my eyes were good.
I'm 67 yrs old now and so are my eyes. I've actually grown quite fond of my indicators.
Lol

KJ

An afterthought to add is that I use my indicators a lot.
I have several and they are preset for different applications.
For me, it's quick and easy so why wouldn't you ?
The peace of mind knowing you got it as close as it's going to get is priceless.
 
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For the tapping method, where possible, tap at 90deg to the indicator.
That way you do not get a shock on the dti.
When tapping something into place, I like the part spinning at the 90-120 rpm range.I usually have the dti on the side facing me. Then I tap down when the dti is just moving past the low spot. This compensates for the reaction delay and you actually strike the part at the TDC position. Takes a bit of practice to find your rpm and hit start point. BTW, your not using a big hammer, a piece of cooper round 3/4-1inch diameter and about 2 inche long will do most things. Sometimes it needs to only be a small piece like 1/4-3/8 round. People who use mag chucks on cylindrical grinders are really good at it.

Not tapping something true, but using a bearing to assist in quickly getting something close to running true. Notice that the part at the end was .002 inches out, but looked perfect in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn7A9PqNftY
Neil
PS an old friends saying. If you can't measure it, how are you going to make it right.
 
:D
KJ Cues said:
I don't have to indicate a shaft that I build from partial because my machining schedule
dictates that the hole is DNP center. Everything is done off the center.
When installing a pin, particularly doing a swap-out, the work gets indicated.
Regardless of where the pin was when the cue came in, it leaves my shop in the center.
I also used to rely on the visual and was quite good at it, I was young, my eyes were good.
I'm 67 yrs old now and so are my eyes. I've actually grown quite fond of my indicators.
Lol

KJ

An afterthought to add is that I use my indicators a lot.
I have several and they are preset for different applications.
For me, it's quick and easy so why wouldn't you ?
The peace of mind knowing you got it as close as it's going to get is priceless.
Click to expand...
I don't even eyeball the urinal anymore.:D
 
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My point is to provoke some thought, perhaps even some discussion by challenging the importance of high accuracy. Simply put, are cue makers barking up the wrong tree by focusing so much on high precision? Does it really show in the final product?

We've all seen the guys who take pride in how precisely they do things, how tight of tolerances they are sure to hold. They were NASA rocket scientists or precision machinists in their previous lives & that somehow qualifies them to be expert cue makers. They make sure everybody understands that this cue maker is detail conscious to .000000001" on every component. They brag about their awesome super duper machinery that allows them such high precision. Yet these same guys put cues out with noticeably uneven points and joints where there is an obvious ledge between butt & shaft. And heaven forbid you want another shaft after the fact, because they need you to send the butt for them to match.

What buyers appreciate is a flush fitting joint, with either shaft. They don't want to send the cue back to get a new shaft. It's impressive when the maker can send extra shafts that not only fit dead nuts, but also rings line up. They appreciate even points, lined up rings, etc. They couldn't give two cents about how many hundreds of thousandths of an inch to center you can install a joint pin. What matters to them is if they can feel a big ledge where the shaft meets the butt. Obviously if the "high precision" guys cannot get these minor details nailed, then are they really benefiting from such high precision? Could maybe they benefit much more from focusing their attention more to aesthetic details & fit/finish? Food for thought
 
qbilder said:
My point is to provoke some thought, perhaps even some discussion by challenging the importance of high accuracy. Simply put, are cue makers barking up the wrong tree by focusing so much on high precision? Does it really show in the final product?

What buyers appreciate is a flush fitting joint, with either shaft. They don't want to send the cue back to get a new shaft. It's impressive when the maker can send extra shafts that not only fit dead nuts, but also rings line up. They appreciate even points, lined up rings, etc. They couldn't give two cents about how many hundreds of thousandths of an inch to center you can install a joint pin. What matters to them is if they can feel a big ledge where the shaft meets the butt. Obviously if the "high precision" guys cannot get these minor details nailed, then are they really benefiting from such high precision? Could maybe they benefit much more from focusing their attention more to aesthetic details & fit/finish? Food for thought
Click to expand...

There have been some interesting points raised in this discussion. Some talk about a thou or 2 being good enough. And in most cases that is true,but there are lots of cases and instances where being more than the thou or 2 out will show as being uneven or as not looking right. Points is one obvious area. Another is a tip install, although it does not have to be round,and on most cues is not, but customers do like it to match so it is smooth to the touch. That right there is better than a thou precision right off the bat. But you know all this anyway.
The real question has to be asked, is real round cue shafts and handles actually the best geometry for a pool cue. My thoughts are no. It is just easier for a production point of view. But flush fitting a ferrule and tip to a non round shaft is a hassle as it takes a lot more time and skill. And the hand planed non round handles are a real pain to match a replacement shaft to.
Neil
 
qbilder said:
My point is to provoke some thought, perhaps even some discussion by challenging the importance of high accuracy. Simply put, are cue makers barking up the wrong tree by focusing so much on high precision? Does it really show in the final product? Food for thought
Click to expand...

I for one appreciate your 'food for thought' as I'm always hungry.
Many of my posts are designed to do exactly that, get people to think.
So let's talk tolerence and what is acceptable and what is not.

I come from a machining background. I can get to .0005" if I have to.
Many many yrs ago I adopted a tolerence of .002-.003" when working in wood.
Any tighter is fruitless.
Wood moves due to humidity changes and the humidity changes here on a daily basis.
A climate controlled shop would counter that for the build period but at some time
the cue will have to experience the conditions of the real world, humidity and all.
IMHO, wood that experiences seasonal changes prior to the build process,
fares better in real-world enviroments than wood that has been 'protected'.

All of the areas that buyers consider are valid but they're all on the exterior of the cue.
Even pts, mated jnt, perfectly fitting replacement shafts, etc.
What the buyer can't see is the heart of the cue, what's going on inside.
The tolerence factor of the interior should match the exterior.

I'm going to suggest that too tight of a tolerence on the inside may not be such a good thing.
Think glue starved tenon. Most 'A' jnts have a metal screw holding it all together until the epoxy cures.
If there wasn't enough epoxy to begin with because of too tight of a tolerence, you're risking a 'buzz'.
Correcting that after the fact may prove to be a bit dicey and you'll have lost the badge of 'getting it right the first time'.
I'm very comfortable with .002-.003".

Shooting for the tight tolerences mentioned earlier in this thread may be admirable and even impressive......for today.
Measure it again tomorrow and you might be disappointed.

KJ
 
KJ Cues said:
Many many yrs ago I adopted a tolerence of .002-.003" when working in wood.
Any tighter is fruitless.
Wood moves due to humidity changes and the humidity changes here on a daily basis.
A climate controlled shop would counter that for the build period but at some time
the cue will have to experience the conditions of the real world, humidity and all.
IMHO, wood that experiences seasonal changes prior to the build process,
fares better in real-world enviroments than wood that has been 'protected'.

All of the areas that buyers consider are valid but they're all on the exterior of the cue.
Even pts, mated jnt, perfectly fitting replacement shafts, etc.
What the buyer can't see is the heart of the cue, what's going on inside.
The tolerence factor of the interior should match the exterior.

I'm going to suggest that too tight of a tolerence on the inside may not be such a good thing.
Think glue starved tenon. Most 'A' jnts have a metal screw holding it all together until the epoxy cures.
If there wasn't enough epoxy to begin with because of too tight of a tolerence, you're risking a 'buzz'.
Correcting that after the fact may prove to be a bit dicey and you'll have lost the badge of 'getting it right the first time'.
I'm very comfortable with .002-.003".

Shooting for the tight tolerences mentioned earlier in this thread may be admirable and even impressive......for today.
Measure it again tomorrow and you might be disappointed.

KJ
Click to expand...

Good post. You just openly spoke some experienced based truths rather than BSing or ridiculing/belittling others. A trait seemingly lacking in the forums these days.
 
In my 20s and 30s and even into my 40s I rarely used a dial indicator as I could eyeball a couple of thousandths of run out. Now in my 50's I do not trust my eyes as much, so I have become more dependant on the indicator. Enjoy those young eyes while you have them.

In my Cue Building book in the Advice from the Masters chapter Bob Meucci said if you can learn to hold your tolerances to one thousandth of an inch that you are good for all parts of cuemaking. I think Bob was dead on with his advice. Worrying about tolerances closer than that seems to me to be just used as boasting points and is really just a waste of time.

Like I said, when I see the indicator hit .001" or less I am done messing with it.
 
Taig chucks

One has to remember that repeat ability and accuracy of a lathe chuck has a lot to do with how they are built. A high precision chuck has a hardened and ground scroll, that way once your jaws are made true to the axis of the lathe it doesn't matter what diameter you are holding. That kind of accuracy does not come cheap, and at the cost point of Chris's lathe you can not expect this standard nor is it needed. IMO Chris's lathe are great for the what they were designed for. It isn't slighting Chris's lathe to say it is not designed for +/- 0.0005 work. When you tap on jaws to correct run out what do you think is moving? You are pushing the jaws into the scroll. A high accuracy chuck wouldn't move if you did that because there is no slop in the scroll and everything has been hardened. Nor would you want to do that because you risk damaging the chuck by brinelling the scroll. I was told by a Toolmaker that in days of old it was considered bad practice to chuck up anything other than precision bar stock in a precision three jaw chuck, the logic was that anything less than round would put uneven pressure on the scroll and could lessen its accuracy. The standard chuck for everyday use was the four jaw.
 
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I sold quite a few jigs to those who couldn't get their scroll chucks to dial in within a thou to install joint screws.
 
qbilder said:
Not sure what everybody else does, but I lightly tighten the chuck so it holds the piece secure, then spin the lathe by hand or let it run at lower speed. I tap on the side of the piece until it spins true, then tighten the chuck the rest of the way. Unlike others, I do not use an indicator. If I cannot see wobble, then it's spinning true enough for cue work. Like I said, if I cannot see it wobble in the lathe, then nobody will see it wobble when rolled across a table. I'm not saying that's the best way, or even a good way to do things, just that it's the way I do it. Nothing wrong with indicating everything. It's a safe method. Just doesn't get me any better results.
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I didn't really think about how much you can see as wobble.... so I checked it..

When I put my dead center in the chuck I eyeball it and sometimes I can see a wobble. I usually tap it or spin it in the chuck and re clamp to true it up.

I checked it with an indicator when it wobbled and it was only running out a little over .001........... seems my old eyes are better than I thought........... LOL


Kim
 
whammo57 said:
I didn't really think about how much you can see as wobble.... so I checked it..

When I put my dead center in the chuck I eyeball it and sometimes I can see a wobble. I usually tap it or spin it in the chuck and re clamp to true it up.

I checked it with an indicator when it wobbled and it was only running out a little over .001........... seems my old eyes are better than I thought........... LOL


Kim
Click to expand...

Yeah, if not spinning too fast, even slight run out can be seen visually. It's a lot more obvious than folks may think. Good on you for testing it out :thumbup:
 
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