Unknown APA rule enforced at LC

Celophanewrap said:
Yes, my curiosity got the best of me, so I addressed this with the folks in St. Louis. The OP was treated like a tourist and the guy he played was treated to a little home town cookin'. This ain't a rule. I hope in the end you smoked that cheatin' bastage.
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That is possible and to think that is the case makes my blood boil a little. With that said, when I brought it up with the LO she did not know if I was playing a local team or not. So I assume she wasn't playing favorites.

Really my only contention is I would like to know about things like this before we start. I never rush my lag because I want to make sure everything is right.
 
IU Ames Mister said:
We have a guy in our APA league that takes the "simultaneous" definition a little too far. The first time I played him, he looked at me before the lag and asked, "do you want me to count, or will you?" I didn't know what he was talking about, but my teammates said that he thinks you have to lag at the exact same moment. So he starts counting, "1, 2, 3."
The next time he does this, I'm going to offer to count and count to 10. See if he hits it on 3, then I'll just keep counting to 10 and hit mine then...:thumbup:
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I think you should let him count and on '3' let him shoot his ball and then on 3.5-4 you shoot your ball into his ball (...'fram style' works best for full effect- never crack a smile) and then the closest to the head rail wins the lag... problem solved. If there a question tell them to show it to you in the rule book...never smile. That'll cause a either heart attack (or a fight) over the nit rules of leagues. Either way it'll break the immediate tension so you can flip on the next try.

R
 
This has been addressed multiple times in OPAL APA but it's been addressed in the newsletter "Boomer's Page" that Boomer sends out with the weekly scoresheets. It isn't in the handbook and it isn't in the by-laws.

Some of the refs at the coast didn't know this rule and had to be sent to get clarification.

If someone is quick drawing on you then simply take your time and make them slow down.
 
rhatten said:
I think you should let him count and on '3' let him shoot his ball and then on 3.5-4 you shoot your ball into his ball (...'fram style' works best for full effect- never crack a smile) and then the closest to the head rail wins the lag... problem solved. If there a question tell them to show it to you in the rule book...never smile. That'll cause a either heart attack (or a fight) over the nit rules of leagues. Either way it'll break the immediate tension so you can flip on the next try.

R
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Actually, in the APA if the balls make contact on the lag you re-lag, and that one is in the book. What the OP was cited for, that must be a local rule. I always find it curious about some of these local rules. Like this one for instance, it's not in the national list of tournament rules, it's not recognized at the national level, it's kind of pointless. The APA said they only ask that you lag in a timely fashion as not to hinder the progress of the match. The the lag the OP discribes, according to the APA, is perfectly legal and would be considered as legal in match or tournament play
 
I've heard this of this rule before but the penalty, if enforced, is to just lag again. I can't recall ever seeing this enforced.

Every now and then I encounter a super fast lagging opponent. If they say anything, I just jokingly give them credit for a practice lag and ask them to let me know when they're ready for the real lag.
 
Eh, this is not an "undocumented" rule.
It's in the rulebook that you should lag simultaneously.

Do they mean "simultaneously" to within 1/10th of a second?
No, of course not.
But if his ball hits a rail before you even hit your ball, that's clearcut proof
that you broke the documented rule.

It's just a convenient way to gauge whether the rule has been broken.
Sort of like, it doesn't say in the rulebooks that having both feet on the table is a foul.
But if you have both shoes on the table, it's a safe bet you're breaking the foot-on-the-floor rule.
 
CreeDo said:
Eh, this is not an "undocumented" rule.
It's in the rulebook that you should lag simultaneously.

Do they mean "simultaneously" to within 1/10th of a second?
No, of course not.
But if his ball hits a rail before you even hit your ball, that's clearcut proof
that you broke the documented rule.

It's just a convenient way to gauge whether the rule has been broken.
Sort of like, it doesn't say in the rulebooks that having both feet on the table is a foul.
But if you have both shoes on the table, it's a safe bet you're breaking the foot-on-the-floor rule.
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A requirement to have one ball hit the bottom rail and with penalty of a re-lag is certainly a undocumented rule.
 
CreeDo said:
Eh, this is not an "undocumented" rule.
It's in the rulebook that you should lag simultaneously.

Do they mean "simultaneously" to within 1/10th of a second?
No, of course not.
But if his ball hits a rail before you even hit your ball, that's clearcut proof
that you broke the documented rule.

It's just a convenient way to gauge whether the rule has been broken.
Sort of like, it doesn't say in the rulebooks that having both feet on the table is a foul.
But if you have both shoes on the table, it's a safe bet you're breaking the foot-on-the-floor rule.
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Actually, this is, as CreeDo says, in the Rule Book AKA The APA Team Manual. However, it's not in the rules portion, it's in the definitions. When I asked question about the "bottom rail simultaneous lag" situation (I cut and paste the OP's initial question/issue into the email I sent to the APA) this is a portion of the response I received:

The question you have brought to our attention is a unique one and something we do not hear that often which is why we do not touch on it on our rules book. I have spoken with the head of our tournament department about this unique question, and there is no rule that states a player has to lag his ball before the opponents ball hit the return (bottom) rail. There is also no rule on shooting simultaneously, but we ask that the lag be done in a timely fashion so it doesn’t hinder the progress of the match. In closing, the lag you described is not illegal and would be completely acceptable during regular matches and tournaments.
 
Celophanewrap said:
Actually, this is, as CreeDo says, in the Rule Book AKA The APA Team Manual. However, it's not in the rules portion, it's in the definitions. When I asked question about the "bottom rail simultaneous lag" situation (I cut and paste the OP's initial question/issue into the email I sent to the APA) this is a portion of the response I received:

The question you have brought to our attention is a unique one and something we do not hear that often which is why we do not touch on it on our rules book. I have spoken with the head of our tournament department about this unique question, and there is no rule that states a player has to lag his ball before the opponents ball hit the return (bottom) rail. There is also no rule on shooting simultaneously, but we ask that the lag be done in a timely fashion so it doesn’t hinder the progress of the match. In closing, the lag you described is not illegal and would be completely acceptable during regular matches and tournaments.
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Who are you quoting here?
 
Ahahaha next time wait till he bunts his up table and then cross bank it on the roll towards the oppsotie corner pocket up table. Have a serious look of confusing and say.. "Huh... That was a pretty bad miscue!!"

Icing on the cake is if after you cross bank his lag you end up close or DEAD on the rail you both lagged from.

Nothing is better then firing up a banging in league before your match. They lack the mental game of stronger players so in a way its cheating unless..... You're the miserable c*nt that started an uproar in the first place. I feel that if somebody pulls this kinda of crap then its fair game for subliminal sharking. Some say take the high road in any case. Others (like me) feel that you should always respect EVERYBODY you play so if they disrespect you... Gloves are off and it is ok to get in somebodies head. They caused it by being a big wet smelly sh*t!!!
 
TheNewSharkster said:
A requirement to have one ball hit the bottom rail
and with penalty of a re-lag is certainly a undocumented rule.
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Sure, they don't spell out "you must hit your ball before they hit the bottom rail etc etc"
But it's just another way of saying "the lags must happen simultaneously."

It's really the exact same rule, stated 2 different ways:

Way 1 - the lags should happen at nearly the same time.
Way 2 - there should not be so much delay between lags, that one player's ball hits a rail before the other guy hits his ball.


Celophanewrap said:
When I asked question about the "bottom rail simultaneous lag" situation
(I cut and paste the OP's initial question/issue into the email I sent to the APA)
this is a portion of the response I received:


The question you have brought to our attention is a unique one and something we do not hear
that often which is why we do not touch on it on our rules book...[snip]
There is also no rule on shooting simultaneously
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Hate to say it but the National Office blew it here. The red part that they wrote in their email is wrong.
There are two APA rulebooks, one for 8/9b and the team manual.
In both of these books, it says the lags must happen simultaneously.
It's literally on page one of the 8b/9b rulebook.
And as celophane notes it's in the definitions section of the team manual.


1. Lag - Method used to start a match. Players simultaneously shoot a ball from behind the head string,
banking it off the foot rail and back to the head of the table.


It's not something I'm especially uptight about, I don't care if they call the rule or not.
It does bug me though that the head office got a rule wrong and didn't double check before replying.
 
CreeDo said:
Sure, they don't spell out "you must hit your ball before they hit the bottom rail etc etc"
But it's just another way of saying "the lags must happen simultaneously."

It's really the exact same rule, stated 2 different ways:

Way 1 - the lags should happen at nearly the same time.
Way 2 - there should not be so much delay between lags, that one player's ball hits a rail before the other guy hits his ball.




Hate to say it but the National Office blew it here. The red part that they wrote in their email is wrong.
There are two APA rulebooks, one for 8/9b and the team manual.
In both of these books, it says the lags must happen simultaneously.
It's literally on page one of the 8b/9b rulebook.
And as celophane notes it's in the definitions section of the team manual.


1. Lag - Method used to start a match. Players simultaneously shoot a ball from behind the head string,
banking it off the foot rail and back to the head of the table.


It's not something I'm especially uptight about, I don't care if they call the rule or not.
It does bug me though that the head office got a rule wrong and didn't double check before replying.
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Please read the response celophanewrap got back from the National APA office regarding this subject.
 
Brent Struble lag 4-14-14.jpg
Hi all. New member here. I understand some of the frustration I seen on this topic. But some of the responses I have read here are disturbing. Yes the rule book should be a little more clear. When you leave room for interpretation, someone invariably will come up with an answer that suits them. But in apa, its about sportsmanship.....not just obscure rules. This is a case of two players with two different styles of play. Common sense should prevail. If you waited till his ball was back to the head string before you hit yours, I could see his point. But that doesn't sound like the case. When I hear people saying you should aim at his ball, or purposely play mind games, I see bad sportsmanship. In pic, my opponent had a miraculous lag. It did not touch side rail, and I congratulated him on the best lag I ever seen. It was not simultaneous, as he hit after my ball made contact with rail....but it was close. I guess pool just isn't life and death, win at all cost, affair to me.
 
buckshotshoey said:
View attachment 332164
Hi all. New member here. I understand some of the frustration I seen on this topic. But some of the responses I have read here are disturbing. Yes the rule book should be a little more clear. When you leave room for interpretation, someone invariably will come up with an answer that suits them. But in apa, its about sportsmanship.....not just obscure rules. This is a case of two players with two different styles of play. Common sense should prevail. If you waited till his ball was back to the head string before you hit yours, I could see his point. But that doesn't sound like the case. When I hear people saying you should aim at his ball, or purposely play mind games, I see bad sportsmanship. In pic, my opponent had a miraculous lag. It did not touch side rail, and I congratulated him on the best lag I ever seen. It was not simultaneous, as he hit after my ball made contact with rail....but it was close. I guess pool just isn't life and death, win at all cost, affair to me.
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Isn't that a loss of lag for going past the head rail? So wouldnt that be the worst lag possible?
 
buckshotshoey said:
No. The only way it could be loss of lag in apa is to go in a pocket, or hit a side rail. It did neither. That's where it stopped
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In WPA rules its a loss. What is all the APA rules about the lag? I found them they are vague.
 
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