Unsure of this new cue

L

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, I finally bought a decent cue, a new Pure X HXT15 skinny 11.75, bought it online. I always choose a smaller tip cue if I go to a bar, just always preferred them over fat tips. Now, even though it feels nice and looks great, I wonder if I went too skinny. It is not as if I am miscuing, I am not. It just looks awful narrow on the cue ball. I wonder if I will grow into it ok or could it kind of mess with you head, your confidence? What does such a skinny do for you or what would a bit fatter tip do? I don't know much!
 
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LOL, 11,75 +- 0,2 too small ;)
You can feel 11,0 vs 12,75 probably properly.

Take this!
fusion_ballview.jpg
 
livemusic said:
So, I finally bought a decent cue, a new Pure X HXT15 skinny 11.75, bought it online. I always choose a smaller tip cue if I go to a bar, just always preferred them over fat tips. Now, even though it feels nice and looks great, I wonder if I went too skinny. It is not as if I am miscuing, I am not. It just looks awful narrow on the cue ball. I wonder if I will grow into it ok or could it kind of mess with you head, your confidence? What does such a skinny do for you or what would a bit fatter tip do? I don't know much!
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I bought two new shafts for my Meucci 1.5 years ago. One of them was "The Pro" 12.5mm and the other was the Ultimate Weapon 11.65 mm. When I first got them, the UW was a problem for me - too skinny. Resulting in hitting the cue ball not where I really wanted to hit it. Which means, that you have to take more care as to where you hit the cue ball - more precision, simply. So for a while I preferred the 12.5mm shaft. After several months I changed to the UW again and now I got comfortable with it. It took several months of practice with it, though. I think it is harder to shoot precisely with a skinnier shaft. OTOH, it emphasizes the need for precision. So in the end that is a good thing. The learning curve with a skinnier shaft is steeper. I would not be frustrated if I were you. Give it a while - like 3 to 4 months. Don't change shafts during that period.

Once you got used to the shaft you can do some things with it that you can't do so easily with a thicker one. Like I can draw a lot better and farther with the skinny one. But I always have to take greater care where I hit the cb.
 
livemusic said:
So, I finally bought a decent cue, a new Pure X HXT15 skinny 11.75, bought it online. I always choose a smaller tip cue if I go to a bar, just always preferred them over fat tips. Now, even though it feels nice and looks great, I wonder if I went too skinny. It is not as if I am miscuing, I am not. It just looks awful narrow on the cue ball. I wonder if I will grow into it ok or could it kind of mess with you head, your confidence? What does such a skinny do for you or what would a bit fatter tip do? I don't know much!
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I hate anything under 12.5mm. Feels like a toothpik in my fingers. Give it a couple weeks. If you don't like it, change it.
 
What you are describing is quite common. The CB looks huge with those skinny shafts, and that's very appealing to beginners, but it's a trade of, your margin of error is very small and you have to be playing your best to utilize a thin shaft, but the reality is that most days your not playing to the best of your ability, and that's when skinny shafts becomes frustrating. There is a reason most players end up with something between 12.5-13mm
I think you will enjoy the playing more if you go for a bigger diameter shaft.
 
Kim Bye said:
What you are describing is quite common. The CB looks huge with those skinny shafts, and that's very appealing to beginners, but it's a trade of, your margin of error is very small and you have to be playing your best to utilize a thin shaft, but the reality is that most days your not playing to the best of your ability, and that's when skinny shafts becomes frustrating. There is a reason most players end up with something between 12.5-13mm
I think you will enjoy the playing more if you go for a bigger diameter shaft.
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Well put. Besides requiring a really good stroke smaller shafts,for me anyway, just don't fit. I have long fingers and find it very uncomfortable making a closed bridge with skinny shafts. I know a lot of players use open bridges on most shots but not me. I'm currently using a Mezz HybridPro(not the HP2) with a 12.8 and an old Meucci Hubbart with a 13mm. I like them both.
 
livemusic said:
If I decide it's wrong for me, to you think I could sell this shaft, is there a market?
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Not a bunch. I'd just keep it. If you ever sell it you'll have two shafts for it. Probably worth 100bux as is. They're around 130-140bux new.
 
in tune and style of play

I found that when I was in tune I liked a skinny shaft, not getting to play much it was frustrating and I went to a fat shaft. If you usually hit the cue ball hard you will probably favor a thicker shaft too. You don't see many skinny break shafts.

I played a little with a 11.8mm Revo a few days ago. On a snooker table it was great other than struggling a little to see the tip without a white ferrule and with old eyes.

Hu
 
12mm is about the limit for me, the WX900 my son got is 12mm, but it feels very stiff and solid. The HXT shaft would be less solid feeling with more bend.

What I did as a compromise when I bought a few HXT shafts is I had Seiberts do a custom 12.5mm one vs the 12.75 one. I knew I liked a bit thinner shaft and that was a very good size. I also have one of the 11.75 mm shafts from them, size to me is OK, but I prefer the hit of the larger one.
 
For the money Purex cues are a great value. Well finished. Their break/jump cue is real nice too.
 
billy incardone told me that he and many better players were using
thin shafts,but he recommended that i play with thicker ones because
i would probably get unintended results

i had always heard that bigger shafts were better on bar tables
with the big cue ball
 
Regardless of what size shaft a person prefers, from 11mm to 14mm (the most common tips sizes), the size of the contact patch between tip and CB is still the same...3mm or 1/8" (basically the size of the red circle on a red circle CB). That doesn't change, even with a much harder stroke (i.e.: breaking the rack hard). The chalk mark will appear to be larger, but that's just chalk dust "blow-back" from the tip. The size of the contact patch remains the same...3mm +/- 1mm or less, no matter where you hit the CB. If you wish to test this yourself, take ANY size tip, and shoot a lag speed stroke on any ball (easiest to see on an upright stripe). Compare the size of the chalk marks. They will be the same. This is not speculation folks...it was proven more than 20 years ago. Perception does not always equal reality.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
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@Scott Lee: From a pure physics standpoint, you are right. Assuming that both tips have the same curvature (nickel or dime) they should have an equal contact point. However, the smaller shaft has lower deflection properties (assuming the same shaft material) due to less shaft end mass.

And there may well be a psychological effect with a smaller shaft diameter. Maybe this was the reason I definitely had more problems getting used to the 11.65mm tip vs. the 12.5. Although the tip I used before those two has been in between those two sizes. There is also the problem that I used to think in terms of how many tips offset I used. Like 1, 2 or 3 tips. A 3 tip offset is further outside on the cb with a larger tip. Another factor that influences your aiming?

Now, after some getting used to the skinnier shaft, it seems to be easier to hit a specific spot on the cue ball further outside because less of the cb is obscured visually by the shaft (diameter). In the beginning of my change to the skinnier shaft I was always afraid of getting past the miscue limit and thus might have stayed further inside on the cb most of the time. When I didn't, I felt uncomfortable and miscued more.
 
Meucciplayer...Tip size and tip curvature (nickel vs dime)make no difference. You can shoot with an 11mm tip on one cue, and a 13mm tip on another cue, and the chalk marks will be the same. Whether you play with a small tip or a large tip, the contact point is still 3mm. Therefore there are 7 possible tip positions from 3 tips high to 3 tips low. A good starting reference point is using a striped ball or a Rempe training ball. Even though some ball sets have thicker stripes (Centennial vs Aramith Pro, for example), the difference is rather negligible. Put a stripe horizontally on the table. Aim the bottom edge of your tip at the top of the stripe and see where the chalk mark is after you hit it...that is maximum high, or 3 tips of spin (high, low, left, or right). Aim the top edge of the tip at the bottom edge of the stripe, and see where the chalk mark is. That will be maximum low,or 3 tips low. Notice that even though you are aiming very low or high on the stripe, your chalk mark will be above or below where you thought you were aiming, and only on the color. At three tips low, your ferrule will be very close to the cloth (1/8"). Another 3mm lower and you will hit the cloth first and miscue. Outside of these parameters, you will very likely miscue. Shaft diameter has no bearing on this. The chalk marks will be the same, whether using an 11mm tip or a 13mm tip. Feel is extremely subjective to the individual, as is the "psychological" effect.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Meucciplayer said:
@Scott Lee: From a pure physics standpoint, you are right. Assuming that both tips have the same curvature (nickel or dime) they should have an equal contact point. However, the smaller shaft has lower deflection properties (assuming the same shaft material) due to less shaft end mass.

And there may well be a psychological effect with a smaller shaft diameter. Maybe this was the reason I definitely had more problems getting used to the 11.65mm tip vs. the 12.5. Although the tip I used before those two has been in between those two sizes. There is also the problem that I used to think in terms of how many tips offset I used. Like 1, 2 or 3 tips. A 3 tip offset is further outside on the cb with a larger tip. Another factor that influences your aiming?

Now, after some getting used to the skinnier shaft, it seems to be easier to hit a specific spot on the cue ball further outside because less of the cb is obscured visually by the shaft (diameter). In the beginning of my change to the skinnier shaft I was always afraid of getting past the miscue limit and thus might have stayed further inside on the cb most of the time. When I didn't, I felt uncomfortable and miscued more.
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If the curvature of a 11mm tip and a 14mm tip are the same, I can't comprehend how the contact point would be identical. It seems that geometry dictate that the contact point would be larger on the 14mm.

Regarding the OP, I played a small tournament yesterday, never lost a match and won, lol.
 
Scott Lee said:
Regardless of what size shaft a person prefers, from 11mm to 14mm (the most common tips sizes), the size of the contact patch between tip and CB is still the same...3mm or 1/8" (basically the size of the red circle on a red circle CB). That doesn't change, even with a much harder stroke (i.e.: breaking the rack hard). The chalk mark will appear to be larger, but that's just chalk dust "blow-back" from the tip. The size of the contact patch remains the same...3mm +/- 1mm or less, no matter where you hit the CB. If you wish to test this yourself, take ANY size tip, and shoot a lag speed stroke on any ball (easiest to see on an upright stripe). Compare the size of the chalk marks. They will be the same. This is not speculation folks...it was proven more than 20 years ago. Perception does not always equal reality.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I appreciate this answer. I was about to ask a similar question. If the surface area that contacts the cue ball is the same for all common tip sizes and hardness it would seem to be an optical and a comfort consideration. A thin tip should not require more accuracy nor provide more accuracy unless the optics of being able to more correctly judge what portion of the tip was contacting the cue ball might be easier with one or the other. Comfort is a factor in that a larger diameter can seem more stable, and easier to guide, especially in large hands.

My question is about size, hardness and shape of tip. It would SEEM that a larger, softer less rounded tip would compress more, creating a larger surface area of contact with the cue ball. But it is also possible that the length of contact time is so short that these factors are not important.

Certainly if a tip were small enough it would contact less surface area. A needle thickness would not contact 1/8". But as the tip got larger the differences would become less significant. So I assume the answer is that within reason 11-14 mm and normal hard to soft tip and nickle to dime shapes, the contact area is not measurably different, or at least not significant to affect us in any meaningful way.

Is that a fair summary of the issues?
 
livemusic said:
If the curvature of a 11mm tip and a 14mm tip are the same, I can't comprehend how the contact point would be identical. It seems that geometry dictate that the contact point would be larger on the 14mm.

Regarding the OP, I played a small tournament yesterday, never lost a match and won, lol.
Click to expand...

If the curvature is the same then the contact patch is the same, regardless of how large or small the width is. Imagine a circle 6" wide, no matter how much of the edge you measure 11mm or 14mm it's going to have the same curvature and therefore the same contact patch. Tip width has zero effect on contact patch.
 
Skip...I'd say that sums it up nicely. :thumbup: As far as tip hardness, and tip shape/size...no significant difference there either. This information is not speculative...it comes from the Jacksonville Project, which was significant in determining contact patch size and dwell time between tip and CB (1/1000th of a second), among many other things. Bob Jewett says perhaps 2/1000ths of a second with a soft tip. Originally the study was done to prove or disprove LD technology (snake oil, or not)...turns out NOT! Contact patch size and dwell time were byproducts that were extremely beneficial for instructors and their students. That said, even 20 years later, you can see by this thread that misunderstandings and illusions continue to dominate the pool landscape. That's one of an instructor's primary jobs...dispelling myths, and replacing them with facts!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

skipbales said:
I appreciate this answer. I was about to ask a similar question. If the surface area that contacts the cue ball is the same for all common tip sizes and hardness it would seem to be an optical and a comfort consideration. A thin tip should not require more accuracy nor provide more accuracy unless the optics of being able to more correctly judge what portion of the tip was contacting the cue ball might be easier with one or the other. Comfort is a factor in that a larger diameter can seem more stable, and easier to guide, especially in large hands.

My question is about size, hardness and shape of tip. It would SEEM that a larger, softer less rounded tip would compress more, creating a larger surface area of contact with the cue ball. But it is also possible that the length of contact time is so short that these factors are not important.

Certainly if a tip were small enough it would contact less surface area. A needle thickness would not contact 1/8". But as the tip got larger the differences would become less significant. So I assume the answer is that within reason 11-14 mm and normal hard to soft tip and nickle to dime shapes, the contact area is not measurably different, or at least not significant to affect us in any meaningful way.

Is that a fair summary of the issues?
Click to expand...
 
Those saying there's no physical difference between the hit of larger and smaller tips are right - literally right.

A smaller tip is nothing more or less than a larger tip with the "extra" outer layer removed. That "extra" layer on the larger tip almost never touches the CB anyway - and inside that they're identical. (See pic below.)

Different curvatures do theoretically make a tiny difference in where the CB contacts the tip, but too little to matter.

In other words, there's no real drawback with smaller tips - but there are possible advantages, like lower squirt and seeing more clearly where you hit the CB.

pj
chgo

tips.jpg
 
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