UPA Contract Fiasco
- Thread starter Grady
- Start date
resurrection of old thread (just in time for Easter)
It appears a year has passed since these issues were discussed. I would be very interested in the opinions of the involved parties now (certainly more interesting than the nude ball racker thread - though I hope none of the male forum members are opposed to nude ball rackers).
It appears a year has passed since these issues were discussed. I would be very interested in the opinions of the involved parties now (certainly more interesting than the nude ball racker thread - though I hope none of the male forum members are opposed to nude ball rackers).
A committee should be formed to study other professional organizations to determine the best model professional billiards to follow. They should research organizational structure, marketing, finance, players unions etc. Anything and everything should be explored.
A players meeting should then take place to discuss what has been discovered and to present other potential options and ideas. Tournament and tour directors as well as others from the billiard industry should be invited.
A business plan should then be written presented to the players for a vote.
Revisions should be done until it is agreed upon. Only players should have a vote.
A board of directors should then be elected annually to paid full-time positions to achive the objective of this plan. These positions fill by qualitied individuals even if they are outside of the billiard industry.
A players union should then be formed to oversee the execution this plan. Power to remove/recall individual directors would be given to the union by a players vote. Probably a high percentage of the vote like 70 to 80%.
A player representive would be elected by the players to negociate for their best interest. Anytime a contract is written, it should be presented to the players for a vote.
Details could be worked out later, but there needs to be a plan put in place and the best interest of the group put before the individual players.
In the long run the majority will benefit, the players, the fans, and the industry. We should not alienate the tournament and tour promoters or amatur leagues of today. They are the very people with the initive and drive to make this happen.
I think the structure of PGA maybe a good model since it is primarily an individual sport. In my opinion, the Mosconi Cup is the most exciting event going and it was modeled after the Ryder Cup.
Whatever the correct solution is, I hope it happens soon.
A players meeting should then take place to discuss what has been discovered and to present other potential options and ideas. Tournament and tour directors as well as others from the billiard industry should be invited.
A business plan should then be written presented to the players for a vote.
Revisions should be done until it is agreed upon. Only players should have a vote.
A board of directors should then be elected annually to paid full-time positions to achive the objective of this plan. These positions fill by qualitied individuals even if they are outside of the billiard industry.
A players union should then be formed to oversee the execution this plan. Power to remove/recall individual directors would be given to the union by a players vote. Probably a high percentage of the vote like 70 to 80%.
A player representive would be elected by the players to negociate for their best interest. Anytime a contract is written, it should be presented to the players for a vote.
Details could be worked out later, but there needs to be a plan put in place and the best interest of the group put before the individual players.
In the long run the majority will benefit, the players, the fans, and the industry. We should not alienate the tournament and tour promoters or amatur leagues of today. They are the very people with the initive and drive to make this happen.
I think the structure of PGA maybe a good model since it is primarily an individual sport. In my opinion, the Mosconi Cup is the most exciting event going and it was modeled after the Ryder Cup.
Whatever the correct solution is, I hope it happens soon.
Superstroke
Registered
Well. I guess i'll throw in my 2 cents here.
I know that as of last summer, during the Capital City Classic held in Philadelphia, that Corey had not signed the contract at that time.
While we were sitting talking about matches, FRANK ALVAREZ was across the room sitting with CHARLIE. At that moment, Corey rolled his eyes and shook his head like he knew something was up.
So then FRANK started waving at Corey from across the room which Corey ignored.
Then, after leaning over and exchanging whispers with Charlie Williams, Frank came across the room with a piece of paper.
It as it turns out, was this UPA contract that people are talking about.
Frank wasn't very diplomatic. He was rather RUDE in my opinion because he expected Corey to sign it and return it by the end of the night, when it was obvious that he didn't want to sign it. It seemed like the UPA was PRESSURING Corey to make a choice. FRANK then lurked around to see if Corey would sign the paper and left after a few moments, only to return a short while later and ask if he had signed it yet. He URGED Corey to sign it and became a little impatient. Corey and myself blew him off and laughed at him.
It was at THAT point that Corey and myself started going over the contract and why he didn't want to sign it.
He made references to the fact that if he didn't sign it, he would not get an invite to the mosconi cup (which involved a hefty chunk of $$$$$ for him if he went) and the possibility of not getting invited to the World Championship in Cardiff. EVEN though he had not been a member the previous time, and managed to go to Cardiff anyway.
The part of the contract that he was stuck on was the exact part that AZHOUSEPRO mentioned. He was worried about UPA...aka CHARLIE making money off of him without HIM (corey) getting any type of compensation for it.
It basically takes away all media rights that Corey has. We talked about an incident that happened at the Peninsula tournament (pretty sure it was there) where Corey was playing, and some kid came up to him to get an autograph.
He wanted corey to SIGN this flyer of sorts that had a picture of Corey and his stats and stuff on it.
Corey, having not seen it before thought it was kind of neat, and asked the kid where he got it.
The kid replied that they were selling them at the front counter.
THAT left a sour taste in his mouth.
Money was being made off of him. In this case he hadn't even been asked. He never even gave his consent.
Well as it turn out, Corey had not signed anything by the time mosconi cup came around, and wasn't put on the team. TONY ROBLES was chosen instead. Now whether that actually had to do with his UPA ranking or the fact that he is Charlie's friend is still up for discussion. Regardless Tony is a great player AND has stomped on Corey for like the past year or so.
BUT. all things aside. I definitely understand the bully aspect of grady's original post because i witnessed it first hand. There was nothing friendly about the manner in which Charlie's henchmen went about trying to get him to sign. AND...they WERE waiving mosconi cup over his head.
Tell me that THAT'S not being a little dictator or tyrant.
I think the controversy wouldn't be there if Charlie wasn't a player AND in charge. I DO think that because of his position, he manipulates things to satisfy his own agenda.
Anyone who was AT the Capital City Classic and heard charlie on the microphone might have thrown up.
He was talking about memberships that had expired HAD to be renewed or else those individuals would NOT be allowed to play in the tournament. (he was EXTREMELY SNOBBISH when he was saying this) This was met by some players just going up and paying, and some arguing about it with OTHER UPS members.
He was THEN talking about collecting money from local non UPA members, until someone mentioned the fact that if the tournament was within a certain distance from your home, you did not have to pay.
It just didn't seem right in my opinion,
The guys from the Capital City Group had put together this tournament and put up the money (in escro on their OWN), only to have the UPA come in sanction it and try and TAKE OVER.
SCOTT SMITH even came up to Charlie and told him. Look....if your members don't want to pay their dues, you can throw them out of the UPA. If they paid their entry fee, i'm gonna put them in the draw. Charlie needless to say wasn't happy.
It all just reeked of the attitude. IF I DON'T GET MY MONEY, YOU CAN'T PLAY! PAY ME!
We just said to ourselves. If it weren't for these guys who put up the money for this tournament in the FIRST PLACE. CHARLIE wouldn't have a tournament to GO TO.
In regards to the comparison to the WPBA. It's hard to say. They actually HAVE a tour where the men DON'T cept. for some scattered events here and there, and regional tours. If you can CALL the whole package "a tour".
Maybe if Charlie PUT together a string of tournaments that could be called a TOUR instead of piggybacking on OTHER people's events, he might have less controversy when it came to membership.
Not like 3 tournaments, but say like 12.
THEN THAT WAY....since he put it all together, he could limit it to MEMBERS only and that way it would be WORTH IT. He could then own media right to THOSE events without anyone saying anything, because he put together the events in the first place.
When i heard him talking about membership dues and complaining that people would pay for JOSS or VIKING and why not the UPA. He forgot to mention that when you sign up for say a JOSS membership. You have a complete schedule of all the events. (and there are MANY...not just a few) You KNOW what your buying into when you pay.
Same with viking, or planet pool and most of the others.
There is a tour ALREADY set up.
Why would people want to pay for a membership to an organization that could LIMIT the income that it's members are entiled to play for by restricting where and when they can play in the first place.
Just some food for thought.
later
Superstroke
I know that as of last summer, during the Capital City Classic held in Philadelphia, that Corey had not signed the contract at that time.
While we were sitting talking about matches, FRANK ALVAREZ was across the room sitting with CHARLIE. At that moment, Corey rolled his eyes and shook his head like he knew something was up.
So then FRANK started waving at Corey from across the room which Corey ignored.
Then, after leaning over and exchanging whispers with Charlie Williams, Frank came across the room with a piece of paper.
It as it turns out, was this UPA contract that people are talking about.
Frank wasn't very diplomatic. He was rather RUDE in my opinion because he expected Corey to sign it and return it by the end of the night, when it was obvious that he didn't want to sign it. It seemed like the UPA was PRESSURING Corey to make a choice. FRANK then lurked around to see if Corey would sign the paper and left after a few moments, only to return a short while later and ask if he had signed it yet. He URGED Corey to sign it and became a little impatient. Corey and myself blew him off and laughed at him.
It was at THAT point that Corey and myself started going over the contract and why he didn't want to sign it.
He made references to the fact that if he didn't sign it, he would not get an invite to the mosconi cup (which involved a hefty chunk of $$$$$ for him if he went) and the possibility of not getting invited to the World Championship in Cardiff. EVEN though he had not been a member the previous time, and managed to go to Cardiff anyway.
The part of the contract that he was stuck on was the exact part that AZHOUSEPRO mentioned. He was worried about UPA...aka CHARLIE making money off of him without HIM (corey) getting any type of compensation for it.
It basically takes away all media rights that Corey has. We talked about an incident that happened at the Peninsula tournament (pretty sure it was there) where Corey was playing, and some kid came up to him to get an autograph.
He wanted corey to SIGN this flyer of sorts that had a picture of Corey and his stats and stuff on it.
Corey, having not seen it before thought it was kind of neat, and asked the kid where he got it.
The kid replied that they were selling them at the front counter.
THAT left a sour taste in his mouth.
Money was being made off of him. In this case he hadn't even been asked. He never even gave his consent.
Well as it turn out, Corey had not signed anything by the time mosconi cup came around, and wasn't put on the team. TONY ROBLES was chosen instead. Now whether that actually had to do with his UPA ranking or the fact that he is Charlie's friend is still up for discussion. Regardless Tony is a great player AND has stomped on Corey for like the past year or so.
BUT. all things aside. I definitely understand the bully aspect of grady's original post because i witnessed it first hand. There was nothing friendly about the manner in which Charlie's henchmen went about trying to get him to sign. AND...they WERE waiving mosconi cup over his head.
Tell me that THAT'S not being a little dictator or tyrant.
I think the controversy wouldn't be there if Charlie wasn't a player AND in charge. I DO think that because of his position, he manipulates things to satisfy his own agenda.
Anyone who was AT the Capital City Classic and heard charlie on the microphone might have thrown up.
He was talking about memberships that had expired HAD to be renewed or else those individuals would NOT be allowed to play in the tournament. (he was EXTREMELY SNOBBISH when he was saying this) This was met by some players just going up and paying, and some arguing about it with OTHER UPS members.
He was THEN talking about collecting money from local non UPA members, until someone mentioned the fact that if the tournament was within a certain distance from your home, you did not have to pay.
It just didn't seem right in my opinion,
The guys from the Capital City Group had put together this tournament and put up the money (in escro on their OWN), only to have the UPA come in sanction it and try and TAKE OVER.
SCOTT SMITH even came up to Charlie and told him. Look....if your members don't want to pay their dues, you can throw them out of the UPA. If they paid their entry fee, i'm gonna put them in the draw. Charlie needless to say wasn't happy.
It all just reeked of the attitude. IF I DON'T GET MY MONEY, YOU CAN'T PLAY! PAY ME!
We just said to ourselves. If it weren't for these guys who put up the money for this tournament in the FIRST PLACE. CHARLIE wouldn't have a tournament to GO TO.
In regards to the comparison to the WPBA. It's hard to say. They actually HAVE a tour where the men DON'T cept. for some scattered events here and there, and regional tours. If you can CALL the whole package "a tour".
Maybe if Charlie PUT together a string of tournaments that could be called a TOUR instead of piggybacking on OTHER people's events, he might have less controversy when it came to membership.
Not like 3 tournaments, but say like 12.
THEN THAT WAY....since he put it all together, he could limit it to MEMBERS only and that way it would be WORTH IT. He could then own media right to THOSE events without anyone saying anything, because he put together the events in the first place.
When i heard him talking about membership dues and complaining that people would pay for JOSS or VIKING and why not the UPA. He forgot to mention that when you sign up for say a JOSS membership. You have a complete schedule of all the events. (and there are MANY...not just a few) You KNOW what your buying into when you pay.
Same with viking, or planet pool and most of the others.
There is a tour ALREADY set up.
Why would people want to pay for a membership to an organization that could LIMIT the income that it's members are entiled to play for by restricting where and when they can play in the first place.
Just some food for thought.
later
Superstroke
nfty9er said:
Actually, he did. In most professional sports, you grant your sport's organization the right to use your likeness for things like advertising. Tiger did sign a contract with the PGA, and then he later sued because he didn't agree with that particular clause. Tiger's reason? He didn't feel anybody should be able to make money off his face and name. My reaction? Where would Tiger be if there were no PGA to do any advertising in the first place? An increase in popularity for golf also means a bigger payday for Tiger, which Tiger didn't take into account in his suit, and which dumbass poolplayers haven't taken into account for their sport, either.
As is usual with the male pool pros, the individual takes precedence over the sport, and nitpicky bullshit rules. On the one hand, the pros say they don't want somebody else using their likeness for whatever reason. So the status quo remains, which is NOBODY uses their likeness at all. On the other hand, they bitch about the state of men's pool and how come it's not more popular. And so the sport continues to languish in obscurity....
BTW, I'm not positive, but I think Tiger lost his suit.
-djb
Superstroke, I am pretty sure the Mosconi Cup snub had nothing to do with the UPA. Matchroom has made it perfectly clear that they will invite and not invite whoever they think will draw fans to that event.
I did hear that Corey got into the World Championship using a special invite from Matchroom instead of due to his position on the pro tour.
Mike
I did hear that Corey got into the World Championship using a special invite from Matchroom instead of due to his position on the pro tour.
Mike
Just my opinion. Ask Donald Trump to sign a legally binding contract without having his attorney look over it, see what he tells ya. I agree there has to be a contract of some sort in order to establish a tour. How long is the term of this contract? When it comes up for renewal do we negotiate better terms based on performance. Do I later get bonuses for being in the top 10. There has to be some give as to the events you can play in until at least 12 stops are secured for the year. Sam
Superstroke
Registered
AzHousePro said:
Hey Mike.
alright....here goes.
I'm just going by what Corey told me. He was saying that they were going to go by the UPA rankings and that if he didn't sign, he wouldn't represent the UPA and therefore be overlooked when choosing. Actually. He mentioned something to the affect that Charlie submits a roster of sorts of the top qualified UPA representatives to matchroom sports.
Don't know if that's true or not. Or if policy has changed somewhere. I'm just going by what Corey said last summer.
i've known Corey for a long time. I doubt he'd make it up just for conversations sake. It was a direct response to me asking what was up (with them shoving the contract in his face while we were watching matches), and then.....why he didn't like the contract....and subsequently we got INTO it as a disscussion.
I mean. Think about it for a sec. This kid has the face of pools future.
He SELLS tickets.
Let's just assume that UPA doesn't factor into mosconi cup at all.
Why then would matchroom OVERLOOK Corey when his face is recognized all over the pool WORLD. While Tony, being a great player, is not nearly as marketed by comparison. Corey has strings of titles to his name, and endorses his own line of cues. Tony does not.
Now this isn't meant to offend Tony or people that like Tony because i happen to thing that Tony is a great player and one of the greatest representatives of our sport. Not to mention a great guy outside the sport.
(also his kid is absolutely adorable) i'm just talking about MOTIVE on matchroom's part and which one of the 2 would sell more tickets.
It just doesn't make sense for them to overlook him.
It just all falls into place TOO easily if you ask me.
The debate over the contract...the threat with mosconi...him not signing, and then....him not playing! Pretty straight forward to me.
I'm willing to BET that if he HAD signed the contract. He would have played in the mosconi cup. Without a doubt.
Now you very well might be right. Matchroom MIGHT have a lot of VETO power if they choose. BUT Are they willing to strain relationships with the UPA to satisfy their wants. (say if they wanted COREY)
Who knows.
From my observations, i wouldn't doubt it if the UPA put pressure on matchroom to respect the UPA as a FORCE in the pool world. (that IS the UPA way) Who knows...team europe might have ended up playing by themselves. OR...Corey shows up and doesn't have a TEAM to play with him.
Just more to think about.
Superstroke
Ps. Special invite at Cardiff is different than Mosconi in that you have champions from all over the world there. Where at Mosconi cup...half the events players are from the U.S. UPA being the governing body of players here might have more say in the mosconi situation if they were to extend a special invite to him , than say in Cardiff. Cardiff would still go on without players from the U.S. where Mosconi Cup is dependant on the U.S. players to HAVE the event in the first place.
UPA Contract
Hi Superstroke,
Thanks for th insight. It all come downs down to one comment on the subject. The men are for the men (individual) period. Several months ago, I posted a conversation I had with Mike Sigel a few years ago. He had just been on the cover of Billiard Digest with the comment "Give me a reason". I asked Mike what he had done for pool to deserve "a reason". His answer was "he retired as the World Champion". He deserved to make more money. I asked him what he had done for the game. Did he teach kids? Did he give away promotional time to further the game? What had he done?
It is the basic problem of mens pool in a nutshell. A great portion of the men say, what is in it for me? Doomcue posted it better than I. The women ask what can we do to get more for all of us. Another poster mentioned the "what came first, the chicken or the egg" question. Do we get a sponsor or the organization to supply players first.
NFTY9ER asked whether Tiger Woods would sign such a contract. One of the things I find to be true is that whether you bowl, golf or play pool, the hand / eye co-ordination is paramount. Someone on this forum must be both a PGA member and a pool player. I'd be interested in the answer. My gut feeling is that he signed the same contract with the PGA that everyone else signed. The WPBA had to have a format for their contract. Where did it come from?
Hi Superstroke,
Thanks for th insight. It all come downs down to one comment on the subject. The men are for the men (individual) period. Several months ago, I posted a conversation I had with Mike Sigel a few years ago. He had just been on the cover of Billiard Digest with the comment "Give me a reason". I asked Mike what he had done for pool to deserve "a reason". His answer was "he retired as the World Champion". He deserved to make more money. I asked him what he had done for the game. Did he teach kids? Did he give away promotional time to further the game? What had he done?
It is the basic problem of mens pool in a nutshell. A great portion of the men say, what is in it for me? Doomcue posted it better than I. The women ask what can we do to get more for all of us. Another poster mentioned the "what came first, the chicken or the egg" question. Do we get a sponsor or the organization to supply players first.
NFTY9ER asked whether Tiger Woods would sign such a contract. One of the things I find to be true is that whether you bowl, golf or play pool, the hand / eye co-ordination is paramount. Someone on this forum must be both a PGA member and a pool player. I'd be interested in the answer. My gut feeling is that he signed the same contract with the PGA that everyone else signed. The WPBA had to have a format for their contract. Where did it come from?
Grady said:
I wholeheartedly agree Grady. I respect you as a player and an ambassador to this great sport of ours. If there is anything I can do to help, please email me at wooggie_2000@yahoo.com and I will get involved in trying to further the game that we love. If the writers of the contracts have their own best interest at heart, then who is gonna look out for us, the players? It will have to be us looking out for ourselves. It's almost like we need a union with representatives for the players just to make sure we're treated fairly in contract negotiations, endorsements, and such.
Superstroke said:
Superstroke, that was a great post. Some pro players, like Corey, had already-existing business interests when the UPA contract came on the scene. Corey was extremely wise to not sign it, which could have jeopardized his relationship with his sponsor as well as his own business interests.
The contract was supposed to have been signed the previous UPA-sanctioned event, Big Apple in NYC, where Corey was afforded a seed and a bye because of his high UPA ranking.
Corey also enjoyed a seed and a buy at the tournment you reference, Capital City Classic, with an unsigned contract at the commencement. He did sign the UPA contract during the middle of this tournament and blackened out the portions that were detrimental to his professional career, but the UPA rejected his edited submission, thus, stripping him of his UPA ranking points. Thankfully, negotiations have taken place which suited both parties, Corey and the UPA, and it's a done deal.
I am a little surprised to hear of the unpleasant interactions with Frank Alvarez. Out of all of the UPA representatives I have encountered by phone, e-mail, or in person, he has been the most straightforward and went the extra mile to provide an answer. Remember, though, Capital City Classic transpired under a previous UPA administration.
The UPA voice has been publicly quiet since the UPA Bike tournament finale, which may be due to the transition of the new president. I am anxious to see what's up ahead under the leadership of Robert Lipson.
Corey, for such a young chap, has demonstrated excellent business sense and should be congratulated for standing his ground.
And then there's Earl...
ManlyShot
Superstroke
Registered
I personally don't blame Frank Alvarez for what transpired. He was obviously acting on Charlie's behalf. I mean...at the tournament, he was Charlie's right hand man so i guess him soliciting was part of his JOB.
Certainly wouldn't look good if Charlie went around and did it himself.
for all i know, Frank might be the nicest guy, but i never had the opportunity to know him like that. i only saw the UPA rep in action.
And so were all clear. People can't compare golf to pool. (my opinion)
I NEVER compare golf to pool.
Two completely different worlds.
Say for instance i played in all the tournaments that golf had to offer(assuming i qualified), and my tour ranking was somehwere in the middle.
I'd STILL be making hundreds of thousands of dollars just in prize money.
Even the guys who SUCK still make an ok living on the tour.
If i had that SAME rank in pool, unless i had backers with deep pockets or a business to sponsor me, i'd be flat broke after all the bills were paid.
Only a select few can sit at the top. The money is just not there in our sport.
Golfers aren't going to care as much because they are ALL getting PAID!
It's not going to make THAT much of a difference if some rights are taken away or not because in the end. EVERYONE on tour is living the good life.
In pool we don't have that luxury. Every penny counts.
So when someone comes along and wants you to sign away your rights. you tend to focus on it MORE because it affects you MORE directly.
I mean...how much did Corey make in prize money when he was #1. Nothing compared to other #1 players in other sports.
Heck the #1 CHESSPLAYER in the world gets like a $500-750,000 (for like a week) APPEARANCE fee just to show up and play a computer.
Our sport has a long way to go.
Hopefully we'll get there someday.
Superstroke
Certainly wouldn't look good if Charlie went around and did it himself.
for all i know, Frank might be the nicest guy, but i never had the opportunity to know him like that. i only saw the UPA rep in action.
And so were all clear. People can't compare golf to pool. (my opinion)
I NEVER compare golf to pool.
Two completely different worlds.
Say for instance i played in all the tournaments that golf had to offer(assuming i qualified), and my tour ranking was somehwere in the middle.
I'd STILL be making hundreds of thousands of dollars just in prize money.
Even the guys who SUCK still make an ok living on the tour.
If i had that SAME rank in pool, unless i had backers with deep pockets or a business to sponsor me, i'd be flat broke after all the bills were paid.
Only a select few can sit at the top. The money is just not there in our sport.
Golfers aren't going to care as much because they are ALL getting PAID!
It's not going to make THAT much of a difference if some rights are taken away or not because in the end. EVERYONE on tour is living the good life.
In pool we don't have that luxury. Every penny counts.
So when someone comes along and wants you to sign away your rights. you tend to focus on it MORE because it affects you MORE directly.
I mean...how much did Corey make in prize money when he was #1. Nothing compared to other #1 players in other sports.
Heck the #1 CHESSPLAYER in the world gets like a $500-750,000 (for like a week) APPEARANCE fee just to show up and play a computer.
Our sport has a long way to go.
Hopefully we'll get there someday.
Superstroke
For anyone to insinuate that Grady is small minded and has small ideas just shows that persons ignorance of Grady and his desire to see pool take on the stature we would all like to see the game have. Grady is intelligent and articulate but obviously does not have the capital to put all of his ideas into effect and that is unfortunate. Maybe CW, as someone else mentioned, needs these contracts in order to bring in enough money to put on enough events that will enable many more players to possibly make a living. In the meantime it is unfair and unrealistic to expect his members to bypass other tournaments that are available to them to make $ and to totally restrict their ability to capitalize on the skills they have developed. I guess that leaves us with the question which comes 1st-- the chicken or the egg? By the way who do you think was the 1st person to see an egg come out of a chickens ass and thought it would be good to eat?
hemicudas said:
Thanks for the welcome, Hemicudas. The topic piqued my interest, needless to say.
The UPA machine, under a new leadership, may provide some much-needed assistance for a men's tour. Only time will tell.
And then there is Earl, the final frontier. If the UPA can charm him into their good graces after previous unpleasant interactions and Earl deems the UPA beneficial to his professional pool-playing career, we may see an end to a dilemma preventing the UPA from being the complete package.
It is unfair that Earl is not afforded the same ranking in an independent tournament as a UPA touring pro IMO. If the UPA contract is the only stumbling block, as in the case of other pros reluctant to sign it, maybe a middle ground can be reached, as in the case of Corey.
ManlyShot