Update to a closed thread about shafts, spin draw and follow.

[SilverCue]

Not sure why this thread was closed but I have an update to:
"Do some shafts produce more spin draw and follow":
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5418774#post5418774

My previous post copied from the closed thread:

"I've got 4 cues with 9 shafts.
I can do full table length draws with all but one shaft.
So far, I've tried 3 different tips and the best I can get is 1/2 table draw.
BTW, it's more euro taper than pro taper."

The shaft that I could only get 1/2 table draw with was shortened by 1/2" and pro tapered.
Now I can get very snappy full table + draw.

I can get almost 2 table lengths of draw with one of my shafts but I don't use it because I have a hard time controlling the cue ball.

I recently purchased 2 sneaky pete cues and I get full table draw with them.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Not sure why this thread was closed but I have an update to:
"Do some shafts produce more spin draw and follow":
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5418774#post5418774

My previous post copied from the closed thread:

"I've got 4 cues with 9 shafts.
I can do full table length draws with all but one shaft.
So far, I've tried 3 different tips and the best I can get is 1/2 table draw.
BTW, it's more euro taper than pro taper."

The shaft that I could only get 1/2 table draw with was shortened by 1/2" and pro tapered.
Now I can get very snappy full table + draw.

I can get almost 2 table lengths of draw with one of my shafts but I don't use it because I have a hard time controlling the cue ball.

I recently purchased 2 sneaky pete cues and I get full table draw with them.

Was the size of the tip changed & was a same or similar ferrule & tip installed?

In other words was the only change the widening shape taken down into a parallel shape to the same size as the tip?

Also how long was the tape made?

I'm just asking to clarify & because this interesting.

Best,
Rick

 

[SilverCue]

Was the size of the tip changed & was a same or similar ferrule & tip installed?

In other words was the only change the widening shape taken down into a parallel shape to the same size as the tip?

Also how long was the tape made?

I'm just asking to clarify & because this interesting.

Best,
Rick

Kept the ferrule, just Shortened it, kept same the ferrule same diameter. Not sure exact pro-taper length. Guess about 12 to 14 inches. I'll check later. New soft tip recomended by the repair man. But had I tried soft medium and hard with same 1/2 table draw.
One of my other shafts is Euro-tapered and it draws fine but it is low deflection.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[Cardigan Kid]

In each test, how far apart was cue ball and object ball? 2,3,6 diamonds?
I'm just trying to get a better picture when you say full table draw.
Thanks for the extra work and your posts.

 

[lakeman77]

is your Schmelke the sneaky you get so much draw with?

 

[Veteran68]

I'm curious about this subject too.

On my Jacoby player I have a 29" Jacoby Edge LD shaft turned down to 12mm with a 10" pro taper and a Kamui Black Soft tip. I struggle to consistently draw the ball very far with it, and have to really concentrate on my tip placement, stroke, and grip when I do try to draw. Then I often wind up over-stroking it and drawing too much. It's just really hard to find that middle ground.

I also have this new OB-160 with a 30" OB Classic+ shaft at 12.75mm with a Tiger Everest Medium. It draws almost effortlessly. Not sure what length the modified taper on a 30" Classic+ would be but I'm guessing it's longer than 10". I could get out the calipers and inch along, but does anyone know?

I would have thought a longer taper would be whippier and thus transfer less energy on an extreme draw shot but the opposite appears to be true in this case. I'm assuming the .75mm diameter increase negates this somewhat, but there's also the obvious factor of an OB shaft being constructed completely different from a Hybrid Edge shaft.

Steve Lomax is building a cue for me and I'm still undecided on the shaft specs. I'm sold on LD and have been a fan of the Hybrid Edge so Steve is going to build my 2 shafts from Edge partials. I'm thinking I'll go with 12.5mm this time because I do like a thinner shaft but feel like 12mm might be a bit too small. But I'm unsure of the taper to ask for -- the standard Jacoby 10" taper that came on my OEM shafts and my custom Edge seems a little short now.

Do longer tapers have any substantial effect on draw ability/effort? Looking for any suggestions before Steve is ready to build the shafts.

 

[SilverCue]

In each test, how far apart was cue ball and object ball? 2,3,6 diamonds?
I'm just trying to get a better picture when you say full table draw.
Thanks for the extra work and your posts.

For my base test:
OB 1 D(Diamond) from corner.
CB 1 D from OB.
draw CB into opposite corner pocket.
I use this because it is easy to control.

I can also do the long cross corner power draw:
OB 2 D from corner
CB 4+ D from OB
but not as consistent because it requires more power. CB travels about 16 MPH to OB.

 

[SilverCue]

is your Schmelke the sneaky you get so much draw with?

No, My Schmelke shaft was the one that I could only draw 1/2 table.
Now with modifications, it draws similar to my other shafts.
The shaft that draws farthest is one of my three D3 shafts with a Morakami medium tip..

 

[Drop The Rock]

I'm curious about this subject too.

On my Jacoby player I have a 29" Jacoby Edge LD shaft turned down to 12mm with a 10" pro taper and a Kamui Black Soft tip. I struggle to consistently draw the ball very far with it, and have to really concentrate on my tip placement, stroke, and grip when I do try to draw. Then I often wind up over-stroking it and drawing too much. It's just really hard to find that middle ground.

I also have this new OB-160 with a 30" OB Classic+ shaft at 12.75mm with a Tiger Everest Medium. It draws almost effortlessly. Not sure what length the modified taper on a 30" Classic+ would be but I'm guessing it's longer than 10". I could get out the calipers and inch along, but does anyone know?

I would have thought a longer taper would be whippier and thus transfer less energy on an extreme draw shot but the opposite appears to be true in this case. I'm assuming the .75mm diameter increase negates this somewhat, but there's also the obvious factor of an OB shaft being constructed completely different from a Hybrid Edge shaft.

Steve Lomax is building a cue for me and I'm still undecided on the shaft specs. I'm sold on LD and have been a fan of the Hybrid Edge so Steve is going to build my 2 shafts from Edge partials. I'm thinking I'll go with 12.5mm this time because I do like a thinner shaft but feel like 12mm might be a bit too small. But I'm unsure of the taper to ask for -- the standard Jacoby 10" taper that came on my OEM shafts and my custom Edge seems a little short now.

Do longer tapers have any substantial effect on draw ability/effort? Looking for any suggestions before Steve is ready to build the shafts.

One thing I will say is that you get a much more consistent and repeatable feel with a stiffer shaft. Shorter tapers usually have a lot to do with this.

 

[john coloccia]

I just picked up a cue yesterday, and I spent a couple of hours hitting with my current playing shaft. Usually, I have no trouble setting up a full table draw, and drawing it right back where it started from. I'm not talking about some sort of ridiculous power trick shot kind of thing. This is just with a reasonable stroke, nice and controlled.

Yesterday, I was having trouble getting anything to happen. Albeit, I was having some back issues, but I was still having more trouble than I would have expected controlling the cue ball, and even just pocketing balls. It was awful!

That said, I'm sure that after a couple more hours playing, I'll be hitting this cue just fine too. I've yet to find a cue, including house cues that I've gotten used to, that has ever ultimately prevented me from shooting to my potential, however mediocre that is.

Best I can tell, if you hit the cue ball in the right spot and with the right amount of power, the cue ball mostly does what it's supposed to do and it doesn't really care very much what it's being hit with.

Again, and it's still just my opinion, I think it's more a matter of finding the right combination of cue, shaft and tip that is well matched to your particular mechanics, and that you're happy, comfortable and confident with, so that when you take a stroke, you actually contact the cue ball in the right spot and with the right speed. When you're really good, even that doesn't matter and you always just put the tip where it belongs regardless, and then it's just a matter of picking something comfortable and pretty.

 

[Jaden]

a lot of people aren't going to want to hear this...

Typically a difference in a cue's ability to draw is going to have VERY little to do with the cue and will be almost entirely to do with the way the player is stroking the ball.

When you aren't stroking correctly for a draw shot, the diameter of the shaft, the type of tip, the amount of chalk will all appear to have a deleterious effect on the ability to draw.

Instead of looking at those physical things, you should be looking at your stroke technique...

Jaden

 

[JoeyA]

SilverCue,

By a Euro taper, I assume you mean a conical taper. If so, it is most likely that as the cone increases as you complete your stroke, the tip is rising, therefore you are not hitting the same place on the cue ball as you do on your straight tapers(pro tapers).

When you practice your draw shots with that shaft, try to place the tip on the cloth at the bottom of the cue ball and TRY to hit right there. If you miscue, raise the tip up 1/8". You could also clean the cue ball really well and then apply a lot of chalk to the tip to verify exactly where you are hitting the cue ball.

As others have said, "tip location-top edge of tip", "angle of insertion" and "speed of stroke" will dictate how much draw you get on each shot, depending upon distance between cue ball and object ball.


JoeyA

Not sure why this thread was closed but I have an update to:
"Do some shafts produce more spin draw and follow":
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5418774#post5418774

My previous post copied from the closed thread:

"I've got 4 cues with 9 shafts.
I can do full table length draws with all but one shaft.
So far, I've tried 3 different tips and the best I can get is 1/2 table draw.
BTW, it's more euro taper than pro taper."

The shaft that I could only get 1/2 table draw with was shortened by 1/2" and pro tapered.
Now I can get very snappy full table + draw.

I can get almost 2 table lengths of draw with one of my shafts but I don't use it because I have a hard time controlling the cue ball.

I recently purchased 2 sneaky pete cues and I get full table draw with them.

 

[dr_dave]

Best I can tell, if you hit the cue ball in the right spot and with the right amount of power, the cue ball mostly does what it's supposed to do and it doesn't really care very much what it's being hit with.

That is correct, assuming the CB is given the same amount of speed (and therefore, spin) in any comparison. However, if you are comparing different shafts (on the same butt), and those shafts have different weights and different tips, the stroke will need to be different with each shaft to get the same CB speed and spin (for a given tip contact point). And if the shafts have different diameters (and/or tips with different shapes, and/or different tapers), one might not be getting the same tip contact point with both shafts. In any controlled experiment, it is important to verify both the CB (or OB) speed and the tip contact point (e.g., with the chalk spot on a marked CB).

For more info, see all of the resources linked on the following page:

getting more spin with an LD shaft

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[MalibuMike]

Effortless Draw with 30" Tiger "Carom" Pro-X!

One thing I will say is that you get a much more consistent and repeatable feel with a stiffer shaft. Shorter tapers usually have a lot to do with this.

I have been playing with a regular Tiger 30" Pro + (with conical taper) with an Onyx tip, for the last several years. I have tried almost every shaft out there as you can see. The Pro-X is the shaft I have always gone back too. Until recently, I purchased a Tiger Pro-X "Carom" shaft. it's manufactured the same way as the regular Pro-X but has a 12.25mm tip and had to ask for a 30" length as carom shafts usually run about 28". This shaft is Awesome! I get better draw, the slightly larger tip makes it more forgiving so I am pocketing more balls. you have to special order it but you won't be sorry! I have to take a photo of my new Pro-X "Carom" 30"! But it out performs all of these shafts. you may not see Predator in the pics as I quit playing with them long ago and had high hopes for the new OB classic "Plus" but now I have put OB's in with the Predator trash bin! I use Schon STL-15 cues, and a Mezz Deep impact (ash) with a toam tip for breaking, so I am not as often called a "shill" for Tiger, their shafts are just superior in every respect to everything else out there. See all the shafts I have used in my profile photo's $300 Fury ES II, Pred 314 & Z2, Fat, Vantage, S tuned and every other silly gimmick.

 

[Drop The Rock]

I have been playing with a regular Tiger 30" Pro + (with conical taper) with an Onyx tip, for the last several years. I have tried almost every shaft out there as you can see. The Pro-X is the shaft I have always gone back too. Until recently, I purchased a Tiger Pro-X "Carom" shaft. it's manufactured the same way as the regular Pro-X but has a 12.25mm tip and had to ask for a 30" length as carom shafts usually run about 28". This shaft is Awesome! I get better draw, the slightly larger tip makes it more forgiving so I am pocketing more balls. you have to special order it but you won't be sorry! I have to take a photo of my new Pro-X "Carom" 30"! But it out performs all of these shafts. you may not see Predator in the pics as I quit playing with them long ago and had high hopes for the new OB classic "Plus" but now I have put OB's in with the Predator trash bin! I use Schon STL-15 cues, and a Mezz Deep impact (ash) with a toam tip for breaking, so I am not as often called a "shill" for Tiger, their shafts are just superior in every respect to everything else out there. See all the shafts I have used in my profile photo's $300 Fury ES II, Pred 314 & Z2, Fat, Vantage, S tuned and every other silly gimmick.

I'd consider playing with a 12.25 mm Pro X. Of all your shafts I'd have to choose the HP II. Its stiff but in terms of feel + Ld I love it.