I’m not bitching and whining, but apparently your butt got a little chapped. What I stated is true. A friend of mine started as a 4 hcp in 9 ball. Normal start for a new player. Not only did he NOT play 20 matches, he didn’t even get 10 matches in. In 4, count them, 4 weeks he went to an 8 hcp. He did not win all his matches. Guess what, he quit. Tell me this is fair.
[UPDATED] APA complaint advice - My new-to-pool player went to a 7 in 7 matches (?!?!)
- Thread starter imbillmoney
- Start date
I went from a 3 to a 5 in one week then to 6 the next, even though I hadn't won more games than I had lost.
The Op told me another player said she had seem me play in a bar tourney and thought I was not a 3, so up I went.
So, I asked for the formula. It's in the book, she said. I looked. It said: See you local league operator.
I love APA's amazing ability to get new folks playing. It's a wonderful thing for that.
Jeff Livingston
The Op told me another player said she had seem me play in a bar tourney and thought I was not a 3, so up I went.
So, I asked for the formula. It's in the book, she said. I looked. It said: See you local league operator.
I love APA's amazing ability to get new folks playing. It's a wonderful thing for that.
Jeff Livingston
quit APA. create an inhouse league with GENTLEMANS rules, with TEAM handicaps like BCA, that pays out all the money locally. The hard part is if you aint sandbaggin in APA, you can't win, everyone else is..... Problem solved. Just my $0.02
TFT.
Combination of the solunar tables, barometric pressure, a protractor, a ouija board, a slide rule and the psychic hot line.
So whats the alternative ? Keep him low so he can win more matches. ? You say he did not win all his matches ? Is he supoosed to ?
Some time back an opposing team picked up a new player and i knew him pretty well as we had been team mates on a money league.
Rules state all new males start as a 4 in 8 ball. There is a riule that known players will start at their approximate true handicap. I told the opposing captain he should start as a 7. Of course she balked at that and i knew the lo was out of town for a family emergency so i was not going to contact him about this situation.
I finally got her to agree to start him as a 5. The following week he was a 7.
Is it fair for me to lose 9 out of 11 in 9 ball matches and still be a 6 ? Last session was not better with only a 33 % win record. Should i complain to the lo its not fair for me to be the worse 6 in our division ? Is it fair to the other players for me to have an 11-1 record in 8 ball and still be a 5 ?
I believe in the apa handicap system although its not perfect. The main thing is to make sure the scoresheet is filled out properly and let the system do its job.
It took me several years of playing mostly the same people every week to come to the above conclusion. Of course there have been some people who have taken longer to be raised than what i feel it should have.
One example is a guy who i have thought for years should be at a higher level. He was just raised at this years nationals. Some people have a tendency to fly under the radar ....whether intentionally or not...but the system does catch up to you.
depends on what his true skill level is. They come right out and say that your skill level can vary wildly during your first 10 matches until the system figures you out. There is no reason to think someone should stay at a SL4 just becuase they are new if they are playing at a higher level.
7 matches is a pretty small sample size, so I'm not sure what the LMAO is for. That one score, even in a loss, could take the place of some other score that's not as good. That's how one "goes up" on a loss. With a sample size of 7 that kind of stuff is more likely. Just like other systems, the formula doesn't look at a 6 and decide it should be "bumped" to 7, it looks at a set of scores and calculates a 7. Just like he didn't go from a 3 to a 5 after his first match - he went from "we know nothing about him" to "this is all we know about him". The latter difference could be huge.
If this dude broke and ran 5 racks in his 7th match, he still should not be a 7 based on such a small sample size. C'mon.
Number 1... I never meant you were bitching and whining about anything. It was a general statement about the APA members.
Second.. the algorithm I mentioned above is for 8 ball. I know absolutely nothing about the 9 ball scoring, except they are different. The OP mentioned 8 ball. And you never said anything about 9 ball until now.
Why not?
All I know is that I am glad we have leagues and tournaments that use Fargo up here instead of their own made up handicap system like APA. How do APA handicaps get applied in handicapped or capped tournaments?? When using Fargo as long as your scores get entered into Fargorate you are good to go for any tournament that caps or handicaps tournaments regardless of the sanction. It seems like there is a lot of squabbling about APA handicaps and a lot of sandbaggers in APA, all for what? To go to Vegas and shoot in a tournament once a year??? It just doesn't seem worth it to me, I'll pass.
Oh, I don't know, common sense. I guess after 7 baseball games, lets just give someone the MVP award and call it a day. Dude plays seven matches and he's at the top of the top players in the league. Sorry, homie no play that game
Yep, the "math" in many leagues is faulty. Some assume if you play a safe you are an advanced player so it counts towards your score to go up in level. That is absolutely false, like assuming if you have an expensive cue you are a good player. A lvl 3 can play safe if they are getting coached, or can be just taking lessons from someone that explained what a safe is and when to play one.
Innings per game is the same thing, yes a bad player can take 4 turns at the table to win a game. But so can a pro if the layout is bad or there is safety play that was done.
In fact those exact things are what causes sandbagging to be so effective, a good player can just bat around the balls, play "misses" that are really safes, and still win vs a weak player easily since they won't be leaving any open shots. Sure they take 4 turns at the table each game but that does not matter much.
USAPL I think has the best scoring, you don't count anything except balls made and win/loss of the game. Does not matter if you missed 20 shots a rack, if you made 5 balls, you made 5 balls, if you won the rack, you won the rack.
Oh, I don't know, common sense. I guess after 7 baseball games, lets just give someone the MVP award and call it a day. Dude plays seven matches and he's at the top of the top players in the league. Sorry, homie no play that game
That is why Fargo is so strong, they acknowledge that it takes hundreds of samples to have a reasonably accurate ranking.
When I started my first day in the TAP league I played one race to 3 to get my rank vs some player who I think was a 5 (out of 7). I won in like 5 innings, so due to that I was the highest rated TAP player in the area LOL, one race to 3 to "establish" your rank, yea not a great idea.
Great point.
And another reason folks really dislike the APA so much. Instead of ever saying, "yeah, that does not seem right, let me look into that, let me tell you why that should not be, or even we have to do better to give folks confidence the system works. No, all we get, is "we know better than you, shut your pie hole and give me your 7 bucks?
If someone breaks and runs five games in a single match, they certainly ain't no goddamn 3! That's common sense! I only know of one person in our area that has ever had a reckless night and broke and run every game. The only time his opponent got out of the chair was for the lag. He was a six at the time. And yes he got moved up to a seven. And guess what? It wasn't because of League operator moved him up. It was because those five break and runs replaced a lot of games on his best 10 out of 20.Oh, I don't know, common sense. I guess after 7 baseball games, lets just give someone the MVP award and call it a day. Dude plays seven matches and he's at the top of the top players in the league. Sorry, homie no play that game
Did you even review the link to doctor Dave's website that I gave? That's the whole point of the APA system. It doesn't matter if it's 6 takes seven Innings to win a game. If they win they get the applied score based on their handicap and win percentage.. not the seven Innings that's on the score sheet. And the reason safes also don't count towards your inning count it's so good players can't run the Innings up on purpose. Go back to the link from dr. Dave site and read the part about applied score. You will see that it does not matter how many innings it takes to win. If you win you get the applied score based on your win percentage and your handicap. Not the innings you run up on purpose.
Let's say im a 6 with a 70% win percentage, and I win my match. Let's say in my 5 games won (short format), I get innings as follows....
1st.. 4 innings
2nd.. 3 innings
3rd.. 5 innings
4th. 2 innings
5th. 3 innings
Edit...That is an average of 3.4 Innings per game won. If you look at the chart, it says a 6 with a 70% win average should win in 2.3 innings per game. The score you receive will be the applied score of 2.3 , not the 3.4 that's on the scoresheet. Game 4 could replace a lesser game in your best 10 of the last 20. You can run the innings up to 20 and it wont matter. If you win, you get the applied score.
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Yep agreed... The league I transistioned to uses a similar method. 10 points for the win, and a point for every ball of your opponent's left standing. In a loss you get credit for balls made.
Some of them work fine. The problem is that all of them are open to manlipulation by the players if that's what they choose to do.
I can understand the frustration of the middle tier players when they are exposed to the effects of sandbagging. I personally don't get worked up about it. If I had to play a 5 "who should be a 6" or a 6 "that should be a 7", it didn't change how I approached the game. I play everyone, league night or not, like they are 3's. In the sense of how many games they need to win that is. When I'm competing, every game hill/hill when I'm at the table.