[UPDATED] APA complaint advice - My new-to-pool player went to a 7 in 7 matches (?!?!)

[The_JV]

I remember when the SL7 on my current team started playing APA. He was on a different team at the time, and many of us certainly knew how good he was. He started as a SL4 like every male did at the time. I felt it was gonna be fun to see how long it took him to get to SL7.

During that session, I played him even up as SL5. Of course he smoked me, but we had fun. (We used to play regularly on weekends at our club, along with several others.)

I'm not sure if he got there in 7 games or not, but I doubt it took 10.

When I started in 8 ball they put me as a 7 right out of the gate. Only had APA history in the Masters league, and of course word of mouth. No complaints by me. Just a comment that the jumping off point can be solely based on opinion and not relative math.

That said, the LO slipped up when I signed up for a session of 9 ball. He started me off as a 7 I think. My first and only opponent at that SL knew me very well, and was extremely pissed that he had to play me straight up. I could have agreed to voluntarily increase my SL, but it was simply too much fun tormenting him in a straight up race. Year or so later and we still laugh about it.

 

[imbillmoney]

I'll tell you what you don't say. You don't say he's being fucked. That will get your email flushed without a second look. Most likely there's nothing the LO can do, except check for input errors, like inputting a 12 instead of a 1 for defensive shots (fat fingers) or scoresheet errors, like the team putting the wrong player number down and him getting credit for a match someone else played. I would probably approach it from that angle, mention that the guy's skill level doesn't seem to follow his performance and ask the LO to look back and see if your team is making some mistake like using the wrong player number on the scoresheet (and mention that the member is new this session, sometimes we find someone with the same name and assume it's the same person, the LO should be checking that but I can't speak for others). Make the LO want to investigate. It's entirely possible that the LO will reply that nothing's wrong and he just has to give it time. Some people, when new, are rated too high and some too low, it's just the result of the small sample size.

Thank you for this input it was helpful! See updated original post

 

[surffisher2a]

UPDATE 8-30-21

Thanks for a lot of y'all's input!

LO's have reviewed his 7 matches and found errors in two but the only one that really matters is the match where he lost 2-5 to a SL6 and then made him jump to a SL7 after his loss. They inputted the innings as 1 instead of 19. They apologized and his skill level has been corrected back to SL6 (I still say he'll go back down to a SL5 but its easier to go back down from a SL6 instead of a SL7!

Thank you @APAOperator member for the advice of not saying he was being fucked but to ask for them to look for errors!

Wow, you would think that the computer would do some simple data validation when its entered into the system. A little warning box asking "are you sure you meant 1 inning?" This is programming 101....... I am not even sure its possible to only have 1 inning with a 5 -2 score ..... I guess its possible if the person who won 2 games broke and ran the first two racks then the next person ran 5 consecutive racks.

 

[hang-the-9]

I’ve never seen a handicap system in pool that ever works. Ever.

They would if people were not out to cheat the system at every chance. All we need is honest players then we won't be in situations when someone goes hill hill with an A player then goes back to his league as a C player. Like I said before, the only handicap I fully trust to be correct is the highest number. If you max out at 7, and someone is a 7, then that's all good, any other handicap there is a decent chance it's wrong, probably due to cheating more so than errors in scoring or just the system being bad.

 

[Fatboy]

They would if people were not out to cheat the system at every chance. All we need is honest players then we won't be in situations when someone goes hill hill with an A player then goes back to his league as a C player. Like I said before, the only handicap I fully trust to be correct is the highest number. If you max out at 7, and someone is a 7, then that's all good, any other handicap there is a decent chance it's wrong, probably due to cheating more so than errors in scoring or just the system being bad.

They always cheat. First system I saw was Gene Starry’s USPPA system in NorCal it worked on innings and if you could see the ball. Some X & O thing at the start of each inning and it was written down and mailed to his HQ. this was in 85 first I saw it, lots here have too. It worked-until they figured out how to “game” the system. Phoenix had the 4-10 thing in place forever, it seemed ok.

But at the end of the day they all get cheated. Can’t fix that. Even in gambling everyone goes on the lemon or stall when they can and play just good enough to win-not necessarily their best pool all the time. Who plays like that?

League pool is great and I encourage people to play it. Of course there are some honest league players. But like the boxing ref Joe Cortez says “protect yourself at all times” I like that saying-applies to so much in life.

Human nature will deconstruct any handicap system implemented in pool in my eyes. I don’t have a suggestion on how to over comes that. So play with in it and do your best with pool. Remember have fun!

best
Fatboy

 

[Maniac]

I am not even sure its possible to only have 1 inning with a 5 -2 score ..... I guess its possible if the person who won 2 games broke and ran the first two racks then the next person ran 5 consecutive racks.

That would be a zero-inning match. According to APA, when the player on the bottom line of the scoresheet (the loser of the lag) wins the match it does not count as an inning because (technically) he still hasn't given up the table.

 

[Maniac]

They would if people were not out to cheat the system at every chance. All we need is honest players

Therein lies the rub.

If you max out at 7, and someone is a 7, then that's all good, any other handicap there is a decent chance it's wrong, probably due to cheating more so than errors in scoring or just the system being bad.

The two most prominent problems in both areas I've played APA in were 1.) Sandbagging, and 2.) failure to mark safeties correctly when a shooter plays one.

I've turned in scoresheets where I had 30 safeties mark for the five matches whereas the opposing teams scoresheet only had a few. It is frustrating when there are people on the other teams that have capable scorekeepers but they let their lowest skill level players keep score, and they wouldn't know what a safety was if it jumped up and bit them in the ass.

 

[Maniac]

But at the end of the day they all get cheated. Can’t fix that.

God's honest truth.

League pool is great and I encourage people to play it. Of course there are some honest league players.

More truth. Luckily, more honest players than not.

Remember have fun!

Number one priority. It's the most fun when you get to play matches with the ones mentioned above (the honest ones). I like to play the players that don't think an APA match is a life-or-death proposition. I like to enjoy some light-hearted conversation during my matches. Playing the ones that seem to be mad at something and are utterly devoid of the appearance of having fun makes my night a lot less enjoyable. The ones that really rankle my drawers are the next to the highest skill-level players that think they're God's gift to pool. I always catch myself wanting to tell them that they are not even a wart on a real poolplayer's ass (I know I'm certainly not).

Maniac

 

[alstl]

He has been playing pool casually about two years, before that he hadn't played regularly.... ever.

He's been in a NAPA scotch doubles in-house money league for about 1 year and this is his first session in APA. Prior to this APA session he has no league experience outside of NAPA doubles (never played NAPA singles) He didn't even know the rules when he started NAPA/APA.

I've been playing APA 10-11 years and I've been a 6 for about 5-6 years. Been to Vegas, etc... I thought he'd be a 3/4 for 1-2 years but he went from a 3 to a 5 after his first APA match. His first match he beat another 3 in a hill-hill race with a lot of innings, why did he jump two skill levels??? I lived with it and figured he'd go back down to a 4 but in 3-4 weeks he was a 6! This Tuesday he played his 7th ever APA match and was beat by another 6 with a score of 2-5 and they moved him to a 7! He had his first 8 on the break in that match (total fluke) and he's never had a break and run.

I had already kicked him off my team/found him a new team (when this session is over) when he moved to a 6 and just explained we don't have numbers for you but I found you a team with old APA veterans that I trust and you'll get to play more week to week

Now he's an undesirable teammate as a 7 that should arguably be ranked as a strong 4/weak 5.

I'm going to email the league operators and vouch for him that he's being fucked over and he's not even on my team. There is nothing for me to gain by trying to get his rank corrected I'm just at a loss for words and I feel bad for him!

Help!

UPDATE 8-30-21

Thanks for a lot of y'all's input!

LO's have reviewed his 7 matches and found errors in two but the only one that really matters is the match where he lost 2-5 to a SL6 and then made him jump to a SL7 after his loss. They inputted the innings as 1 instead of 19. They apologized and his skill level has been corrected back to SL6 (I still say he'll go back down to a SL5 but its easier to go back down from a SL6 instead of a SL7!

Thank you @APAOperator member for the advice of not saying he was being fucked but to ask for them to look for errors!

Did you ask how they thought he won 2 games in 1 inning?

 

[Fatboy]

God's honest truth.

More truth. Luckily, more honest players than not.

Number one priority. It's the most fun when you get to play matches with the ones mentioned above (the honest ones). I like to play the players that don't think an APA match is a life-or-death proposition. I like to enjoy some light-hearted conversation during my matches. Playing the ones that seem to be mad at something and are utterly devoid of the appearance of having fun makes my night a lot less enjoyable. The ones that really rankle my drawers are the next to the highest skill-level players that think they're God's gift to pool. I always catch myself wanting to tell them that they are not even a wart on a real poolplayer's ass (I know I'm certainly not).

Maniac

I’m a man of truth!

Seriously I keep it real and seen enough to know what goes on.

One thing I saw with USPPA is the people sometimes marking the X’s & O’s on shots were so inexperienced they couldn’t judge the shot well enough to tic the correct box-which would have a big impact on a persons rating. So even honest people player & person keeping track couldn’t get it right anyways. That’s another flawed system. It’s hard to get enough experienced players to score inexperienced players matches. Sadly many times it was the blind leading the blind. IDK how APA deals with this problem. Not often do you see a A player who can correctly judge shots scoring D&C players matches.

I’m not knocking league pool at all, I’m all for it. It’s just tough action because of cheats and honest mistakes with people with little experience. It takes years to really KNOW pool. Hell I wasted a huge % of my life to learn it and relative to my knowledge I’m horrible.

all the best
Fatboy

 

[Fatboy]

Did you ask how they thought he won 2 games in 1 inning?

Slide 2 beads when your man ain’t looking, like when he’s racking and your getting ready to break. Maybe that’s why rack your own is a thing now j/k.

The old 2 for 1 move……

I’ve seen guys try it back when the pool rooms had score beads between the rows of tables.

 

[surffisher2a]

That would be a zero-inning match. According to APA, when the player on the bottom line of the scoresheet (the loser of the lag) wins the match it does not count as an inning because (technically) he still hasn't given up the table.

you're correct, I had it in my head that in that third game each player had some misses (play A 2 misses , player B 1 miss) . Still quite a very rare occurrence.

 

[APA Operator]

Wow, you would think that the computer would do some simple data validation when its entered into the system. A little warning box asking "are you sure you meant 1 inning?" This is programming 101.......

It does. And the default answer is "no", so you really have to be on your game to mess that one up. Plus there would be a second warning immediately, even if you somehow got past the first. I don't see how it's possible unless whoever did the input really did think it said 1.

 

[alstl]

Slide 2 beads when your man ain’t looking, like when he’s racking and your getting ready to break. Maybe that’s why rack your own is a thing now j/k.

The old 2 for 1 move……

I’ve seen guys try it back when the pool rooms had score beads between the rows of tables.

I had that move pulled on me once by an attractive young gal in shorts and a low cut shirt. She was local - I was an outsider - and she approached me to play for a few bucks. I didn't want trouble so I agreed to play loser puts $5 in the juke box to keep it friendly. I won the first game and slid a ring. She won the second game and slid a second ring like she was up 2-0. I didn't say anything because I figured I'd beat her anyway - which I did - and I figured most of the guys in the place either had already or wanted to "date" her. Then I billiard the 9 and she yelled out "look at what he did". Everybody stops and looks at me.

I asked her to play some Patsy Cline. "I ain't playing that shit" and proceeded to play some music that sounded like the entire band must have been high on drugs and pissed off about something. Hot looking young gal who should have had trouble tattooed on her forehead. My reward for winning was listening to some bad music and ruining my action in the place. Should have dogged and lost so she could tell everybody what a lousy player I was.

Too soon old - too late smart.

 

[Maniac]

Should have dogged and lost so she could tell everybody what a lousy player I was.

And...you could have listened to the kind of music that YOU liked.

Maniac (Too old soon, but still ain't smart)