Mammoth is darker and has more pronounced streaks/grains.
US Ivory Ban ( New )
- Thread starter Balabushka_Man
- Start date
Mammoth is darker and has more pronounced streaks/grains.
Here's what a buddy summarized better...
If I'm interpreting it correctly, sounds like a cue with less than 7oz. of ivory and where the ivory is less than 50% of the value of the cue, can be shipped across state lines. ************************and this is from david warther........................ What this means for most of us is that items made with pre-ban ivory can only enter interstate commerce if they are small parts ( cue stick parts, piano keys, gun grips , etc. ) that are part of a larger item (such as a gun or cue stick) and the ivory was from pre-ban (pre-1990) tusks AND the item was made prior to July 6th, 2016. It appears that any ivory item can sell after July 6th within a state (intrastate commerce) so long as it was pre-ban ( pre-1990) ivory.
Thank you,
Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills
If I'm interpreting it correctly, sounds like a cue with less than 7oz. of ivory and where the ivory is less than 50% of the value of the cue, can be shipped across state lines. ************************and this is from david warther........................ What this means for most of us is that items made with pre-ban ivory can only enter interstate commerce if they are small parts ( cue stick parts, piano keys, gun grips , etc. ) that are part of a larger item (such as a gun or cue stick) and the ivory was from pre-ban (pre-1990) tusks AND the item was made prior to July 6th, 2016. It appears that any ivory item can sell after July 6th within a state (intrastate commerce) so long as it was pre-ban ( pre-1990) ivory.
Thank you,
Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills
The Mammoth Ivory that meridianblades posted sure doesn't look much different than elephant ivory to me. I've seen some mammoth Ivory that is much darker but I've also seen some that I wouldn't have even known that it wasn't elephant ivory.
I don't know how an inspector could 100% determine the difference. Flat inlaid pieces would be virtually impossible without visible gain patterns. UV light can help but that isn't fool-proof either. Mammoth ivory is often bleached. Without DNA testing, and ruining your cue in the process, I can't see how a valid distinction can be made in the field or outside of a lab. I believe that is one reason why some of the states have included both types of ivory source as illegal. Personally, if I wanted to be sure of being within the law when purchasing any new cue after the start date, I'd steer clear of mammoth as well.
Paul
Paul
most people associate mammoth with the bark which dark brown, blue etc... but in general it is darker.... carry on.
So again, what does this truly do the value of all of the cues that so many of us have collected over the last 25 years (in my case anyway.) The ban is what it is. People will lobby for and against, find loopholes etc etc etc. My concern is that collections now that contain cues with ivory have become "valueless" from a monetary standpoint.
Funny thing
Many of us have old Cues. Always wanted them. Bought them. If your builder used the pre ban Ivory from the Warther museum this is all mute.
Tim Scruggs and Mike Cochran only used legal Ivory.
Many of the old timers and more like most all used legal materials. They had to. It was their business.
That would make their product compliant. As most Cues would be. You can read the words or see what is up. It means nothing to a legally produced product by a licensed business.
Then again,
I am no lawyer. It is not what says. It is what is.
This is a law meant to stop future production.
I am for that all the way.
Put your teeth in your Cue. See how you like that.
Nick
Many of us have old Cues. Always wanted them. Bought them. If your builder used the pre ban Ivory from the Warther museum this is all mute.
Tim Scruggs and Mike Cochran only used legal Ivory.
Many of the old timers and more like most all used legal materials. They had to. It was their business.
That would make their product compliant. As most Cues would be. You can read the words or see what is up. It means nothing to a legally produced product by a licensed business.
Then again,
I am no lawyer. It is not what says. It is what is.
This is a law meant to stop future production.
I am for that all the way.
Put your teeth in your Cue. See how you like that.
Nick
Here Is The Legal Truth.......Hard To Dispel or Dispute FACTS
I don't have a crystal ball but I am betting my money that cues containing ivory will eventually become grandfathered and as such, cues made with ivory for some cue-makers will literally soar in value since they cannot make any more cues using any ivory. The rules of collecting.....scarcity and rarity........will surely apply and the immediate future looks bleak for new cues if the owner wanted ivory. However, like I wrote, the ivory regulations will eventually grandfather any pool cues already manufactured prior to the regulation's enactment. It will take time but the new CA overly strict ivory ban will get modified for this exact reason. In the United States, our Constitution prohibits such laws and that's exactly what the ivory ban is all about. As generally understood, a law that is Ex Post Facto—literally, after the fact—is one that criminally punishes conduct that was lawful when it was done. It is an aspect of the fundamental maxim......."Nulla Poena Sine Lege!"....... there can be no punishment without law, which in this case, without preexisting law.
Ex Post Facto Law Definition:. A law that makes illegal an act that was legal when committed, increases the penalties for an infraction after it has been committed, or changes the rules of evidence to make conviction easier. The US Constitution prohibits the enactment of any ex post facto law and way back in 1798 ruled in its decision, Calder v. Bull, it was unconstitutional for:
1st.......Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action.
2nd..... Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed.
3rd.......Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.
4th.......Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offence, in order to convict the offender.
All of the above, and any similar such laws, are considered to be manifestly unjust and oppressive and it is only a question of when before the regulations gets struck down as presently contemplated. So don't panic......hang onto your ivory cues because initially the immediate calendar outlook is not on your side but ultimately in due time clarity will prevail and your cues will be worth a lot more than you ever imagined........Rarity & Scarcity.......and that's why I am thrilled to own my cues and am browsing right now to see if I can find a Hercek cue in the next ten (10) days. If you are worried, then shoot me a great price on any Hercek pool cues you own under 19 ounces with a flat ivory joint.. Please allow me to help you in your hour of need by buying your beautiful Hercek cue that uses this awful ivory......but I expect a really great price because I am taking this terrible problem off your hands before your cue becomes worthless.....so let me throw more of my money down the drain by buying your Hercek cue now before you get stuck with a white elephant.
Matt B.
I don't have a crystal ball but I am betting my money that cues containing ivory will eventually become grandfathered and as such, cues made with ivory for some cue-makers will literally soar in value since they cannot make any more cues using any ivory. The rules of collecting.....scarcity and rarity........will surely apply and the immediate future looks bleak for new cues if the owner wanted ivory. However, like I wrote, the ivory regulations will eventually grandfather any pool cues already manufactured prior to the regulation's enactment. It will take time but the new CA overly strict ivory ban will get modified for this exact reason. In the United States, our Constitution prohibits such laws and that's exactly what the ivory ban is all about. As generally understood, a law that is Ex Post Facto—literally, after the fact—is one that criminally punishes conduct that was lawful when it was done. It is an aspect of the fundamental maxim......."Nulla Poena Sine Lege!"....... there can be no punishment without law, which in this case, without preexisting law.
Ex Post Facto Law Definition:. A law that makes illegal an act that was legal when committed, increases the penalties for an infraction after it has been committed, or changes the rules of evidence to make conviction easier. The US Constitution prohibits the enactment of any ex post facto law and way back in 1798 ruled in its decision, Calder v. Bull, it was unconstitutional for:
1st.......Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action.
2nd..... Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed.
3rd.......Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.
4th.......Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offence, in order to convict the offender.
All of the above, and any similar such laws, are considered to be manifestly unjust and oppressive and it is only a question of when before the regulations gets struck down as presently contemplated. So don't panic......hang onto your ivory cues because initially the immediate calendar outlook is not on your side but ultimately in due time clarity will prevail and your cues will be worth a lot more than you ever imagined........Rarity & Scarcity.......and that's why I am thrilled to own my cues and am browsing right now to see if I can find a Hercek cue in the next ten (10) days. If you are worried, then shoot me a great price on any Hercek pool cues you own under 19 ounces with a flat ivory joint.. Please allow me to help you in your hour of need by buying your beautiful Hercek cue that uses this awful ivory......but I expect a really great price because I am taking this terrible problem off your hands before your cue becomes worthless.....so let me throw more of my money down the drain by buying your Hercek cue now before you get stuck with a white elephant.
Matt B.
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That's everyone's argument. In California a group of antiques dealers/collectors are suing the state over it in a large collective group.
Thank you,
Bill Lister
Cell/text- 239.823.0408
PayPal- Billiardbills@gmail.com
www.billiardbills.com
www.facebook.com/billiardbills
July 1, 2016.....No Exceptions Within California
I just completed a lengthy conversation with the Head of Enforcement for The California Department of Fish & Wildlife.
The Department has duly considered my argument involving Ex Post Facto and he was advised by the Department's Legal Counsel that the law will be enforced with a July 1st effective date
If you have a pool cue underway, or a cue in for repairs that require using any type of ivory, keep it under wraps if the cue cannot reach you before June 30th. I was specifically told by the Head
of the Enforcement Division that if that very cue arrives on July 1st, both you and the cue-maker, even when the cue-maker resides outside of California, will be in violation of the new regulation.
The matter now rests with the California Court where the new ivory ban has been challenged as being unconstitutional and financially punitive for property owners of any items containing any ivory.
As far as the State of California is concerned, the law will be enforced as written and go forward starting on July 1, 2016.
Matt B.
p.s. He also was completely unaware of any process for obtaining, or even how to apply for, any CITES certificate for a pool cue exemption, although he did know about CITES.
I just completed a lengthy conversation with the Head of Enforcement for The California Department of Fish & Wildlife.
The Department has duly considered my argument involving Ex Post Facto and he was advised by the Department's Legal Counsel that the law will be enforced with a July 1st effective date
If you have a pool cue underway, or a cue in for repairs that require using any type of ivory, keep it under wraps if the cue cannot reach you before June 30th. I was specifically told by the Head
of the Enforcement Division that if that very cue arrives on July 1st, both you and the cue-maker, even when the cue-maker resides outside of California, will be in violation of the new regulation.
The matter now rests with the California Court where the new ivory ban has been challenged as being unconstitutional and financially punitive for property owners of any items containing any ivory.
As far as the State of California is concerned, the law will be enforced as written and go forward starting on July 1, 2016.
Matt B.
p.s. He also was completely unaware of any process for obtaining, or even how to apply for, any CITES certificate for a pool cue exemption, although he did know about CITES.
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From the knife side of things.....
"On June 6 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), acting in furtherance of an executive order by President Obama, published its final rule concerning the Special Rule on African Elephants, commonly referred to as the "Federal Ivory Ban." The new rule goes into effect July 6. Knife Rights would like to thank our friend Rob Mitchell of the Elephant Protection Association for his insight in compiling the following summary.
The Final Rule is designed to implement their goal of a "Near-Total Elephant Ivory Ban" as stated in the FWS press release that accompanied publication of the rule.
It is worth noting that the final rule is a far cry from the original proposals back in 2012 that had virtually no exceptions (see below). The delay in bringing forth the final rule and the changes for the better are the result of significant pushback by Knife Rights, Elephant Protection Association, NRA, SCI and a number of ivory, musician's and antiques collector and dealer organizations. Without that effort, you can be sure that the final rule would have come out much sooner and been much, much more restrictive than it ended up being, albeit that it is plenty restrictive as it is.
The new rule covers "interstate commerce" in only elephant ivory and not fossil ivory (see below an explanation of why interstate commerce covers much more than you might expect). It includes two exceptions to the near-total ban, both of which will have an adverse effect on trade in ivory handled and decorated knives.
1. The antique exception covers ivory that's 100 years old or older and was never repaired or modified since 1973
2. The de minimis exception covers ivory that is less than 100 years old and is further narrowed by six other criteria, all of which must be met.
Antique Exception
For the antique exception there is no weight limit or any requirement that ivory be incorporated with another object. Solid ivory items are allowed.
Documentation of one sort or another will be key to claiming the antique exception. FWS notes the value of experts and professional appraisers in establishing the age or provenance of an item, BUT, expert opinions are simply potentially useful and not determinative. Any expert needs to be prepared to document the basis behind an opinion that an item is an antique.
No antique ivory items will be allowed to be imported, period. Antique ivory items can be legally exported as long as the country to which they are exported has no ban on importation.
Moreover, the requirement that any antique ivory-handled or decorated knife not have been repaired or modified after December 27, 1973, could be an issue with some knives that otherwise fall under the antique exception.
Finally, note that an item that is 99 years old today will be legal to trade under federal law in the U.S. next year when it is 100 years old, provided it otherwise meets the criteria.
De Minimis Exception
The de minimis exception criteria are entirely arbitrary and have no basis in anything rational other than being a means to provide an allowance for this Administration's favored groups, primarily musicians and symphonies, as well as an attempt to fend off politically powerful groups such as NRA, while still pandering to the radical animal rights organizations.
For the de minimis exception for ivory less than 100 years old, the additional narrowing criteria are listed below with some annotations to make them a bit clearer. In order to qualify under the de minimis exception, every one of the following six criteria must be met:
(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to
January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in
Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use (since little, if any, of the ivory imported "preban" has any documentation, this is potentially a very problematic issue - even post-ban ivory may not have been transferred with adequate documentation);
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, (it can be imported only if) the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item (knife handles or ivory nuts that could be removed from an item and meet all other criteria of the de minimis exception are covered by the exception. However, this exception would not allow knife handles, ivory nuts or other components made from ivory to be sold or traded independently. The 50% value rule will likely be appraised based on value of an identical or similar knife with other than ivory handle or ivory decoration and if it exceeds 50% more value that would fail this criteria.);
(iv) The ivory is not raw (any existing raw ivory can no longer be traded or worked and then traded, period);
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume (if an item is less than half ivory and qualifies under all of the other de minimis criteria, it could be legal to sell in interstate trade. However, just putting a knife on a big wooden base or surrounding it with a display case is unlikely to bring the knife within this exception);
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams (approx. 7 ounces); and
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule (July 6, 2016).
Again, in order to qualify under the de minimis exception, every one of the above six criteria must be met.
FWS refused to create any "safe harbors" or binding criteria that a seller could rely upon to be certain an item qualifies as an antique or under the de minimis exception. Instead, it is totally up to the discretion of enforcement personnel whether proof or documentation in any given case is sufficient to prove whether an item is an antique or meets the de minimis exception. FWS said that more guidance would be forthcoming, which typically means that after enough issues arise in seizures and prosecutions, they will use their dispositions to provide further clarification of what they can get away with.
FWS also maintained their position that the entire onus is on the ivory seller to prove themselves innocent. If they seize your ivory-handled knife, it is up to you to prove that it is legal. They have no obligation to prove it is illegal. So, yes, this means you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, the opposite of how justice is supposed to work in America.
Interstate Commerce
It is also extremely important to understand that the term "interstate commerce" is a legal term open to an exceptionally broad interpretation as a result of numerous precedent-setting court rulings. It doesn't mean what most people would assume. In today's world, the vast majority of commercial transactions have an interstate connection based on these precedents. Advertising of any sort, including a mere posting in an internet forum or on Facebook, even if not public, or any other promotion or offer sell, regardless of medium, could implicate interstate commerce.
Traveling to another state to sell is, without any doubt, interstate commerce. Even if you sell in the state in which you live, out-of-state customers or alleged "straw man" deals could violate the law. Moreover, many such sales involve telephone conversations or emails that could make them subject to being "interstate commerce." There have already been prosecutions under existing law for such transactions -- there is no reason to believe FWS will not become even more aggressive now that they are empowered with this rule.
This new rule does not prohibit donating or giving away your ivory specimen, or receiving an ivory item as a donation or a gift, provided it was lawfully acquired and there is no exchange for other goods or services involved. You can also pass along your ivory to your heirs. However, it's a Catch 22 that even if your ivory does not meet the antique or de minimis exceptions, and therefore has no monetary value whatsoever, precedent suggests that the IRS will estimate its value for estate purposes as if it could actually be sold or based on its black market value. In such a case you would not be able to sell it to pay estate taxes on the items.
Some armchair lawyers have seized upon this "giving away" allowance as a means to work their way around the restrictions in the rule, claiming that they would separate the ivory from the rest of the item for sale and just give the ivory portion to the new owner of the item at no cost. Anyone who thinks they can get away with that sort of bogus scheme is likely to be in for a painful and costly surprise courtesy of the Feds.
FWS has provided a fairly straightforward discussion of the rule, along with a table describing enforcement and all of the criteria for exceptions, at: http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf...final-rule.pdf.
You can click here to read the final rule as published in the Federal Register on June 6.
How all this eventually falls out will be largely a product of how far FWS decides to push the issues regarding the various criteria. The criteria are specific, but subject to interpretation and individual enforcement variation, particularly with regards to documentation. With the might of the federal government bearing down on them, many totally innocent victims of abusive enforcement of this ban will likely choose to just roll over because they either have no stomach to fight or don't have the financial means to fight, or both. The Feds are counting on that.
State Ivory and Fossil Ivory Bans
Note that the federal rule is separate from state ivory bans which are listed below:
New York: Ivory and Fossil Ivory
New Jersey: Ivory and Fossil Ivory
Washington: Ivory
California: Ivory and Fossil Ivory - Effective July 1, 2016 (a lawsuit challenging ban has been filed)
Hawaii: Ivory and Fossil Ivory - Effective June 30, 2017
State ivory bans have been stopped in 13 states this year.
continued......
"On June 6 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), acting in furtherance of an executive order by President Obama, published its final rule concerning the Special Rule on African Elephants, commonly referred to as the "Federal Ivory Ban." The new rule goes into effect July 6. Knife Rights would like to thank our friend Rob Mitchell of the Elephant Protection Association for his insight in compiling the following summary.
The Final Rule is designed to implement their goal of a "Near-Total Elephant Ivory Ban" as stated in the FWS press release that accompanied publication of the rule.
It is worth noting that the final rule is a far cry from the original proposals back in 2012 that had virtually no exceptions (see below). The delay in bringing forth the final rule and the changes for the better are the result of significant pushback by Knife Rights, Elephant Protection Association, NRA, SCI and a number of ivory, musician's and antiques collector and dealer organizations. Without that effort, you can be sure that the final rule would have come out much sooner and been much, much more restrictive than it ended up being, albeit that it is plenty restrictive as it is.
The new rule covers "interstate commerce" in only elephant ivory and not fossil ivory (see below an explanation of why interstate commerce covers much more than you might expect). It includes two exceptions to the near-total ban, both of which will have an adverse effect on trade in ivory handled and decorated knives.
1. The antique exception covers ivory that's 100 years old or older and was never repaired or modified since 1973
2. The de minimis exception covers ivory that is less than 100 years old and is further narrowed by six other criteria, all of which must be met.
Antique Exception
For the antique exception there is no weight limit or any requirement that ivory be incorporated with another object. Solid ivory items are allowed.
Documentation of one sort or another will be key to claiming the antique exception. FWS notes the value of experts and professional appraisers in establishing the age or provenance of an item, BUT, expert opinions are simply potentially useful and not determinative. Any expert needs to be prepared to document the basis behind an opinion that an item is an antique.
No antique ivory items will be allowed to be imported, period. Antique ivory items can be legally exported as long as the country to which they are exported has no ban on importation.
Moreover, the requirement that any antique ivory-handled or decorated knife not have been repaired or modified after December 27, 1973, could be an issue with some knives that otherwise fall under the antique exception.
Finally, note that an item that is 99 years old today will be legal to trade under federal law in the U.S. next year when it is 100 years old, provided it otherwise meets the criteria.
De Minimis Exception
The de minimis exception criteria are entirely arbitrary and have no basis in anything rational other than being a means to provide an allowance for this Administration's favored groups, primarily musicians and symphonies, as well as an attempt to fend off politically powerful groups such as NRA, while still pandering to the radical animal rights organizations.
For the de minimis exception for ivory less than 100 years old, the additional narrowing criteria are listed below with some annotations to make them a bit clearer. In order to qualify under the de minimis exception, every one of the following six criteria must be met:
(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to
January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in
Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use (since little, if any, of the ivory imported "preban" has any documentation, this is potentially a very problematic issue - even post-ban ivory may not have been transferred with adequate documentation);
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, (it can be imported only if) the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item (knife handles or ivory nuts that could be removed from an item and meet all other criteria of the de minimis exception are covered by the exception. However, this exception would not allow knife handles, ivory nuts or other components made from ivory to be sold or traded independently. The 50% value rule will likely be appraised based on value of an identical or similar knife with other than ivory handle or ivory decoration and if it exceeds 50% more value that would fail this criteria.);
(iv) The ivory is not raw (any existing raw ivory can no longer be traded or worked and then traded, period);
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume (if an item is less than half ivory and qualifies under all of the other de minimis criteria, it could be legal to sell in interstate trade. However, just putting a knife on a big wooden base or surrounding it with a display case is unlikely to bring the knife within this exception);
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams (approx. 7 ounces); and
(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule (July 6, 2016).
Again, in order to qualify under the de minimis exception, every one of the above six criteria must be met.
FWS refused to create any "safe harbors" or binding criteria that a seller could rely upon to be certain an item qualifies as an antique or under the de minimis exception. Instead, it is totally up to the discretion of enforcement personnel whether proof or documentation in any given case is sufficient to prove whether an item is an antique or meets the de minimis exception. FWS said that more guidance would be forthcoming, which typically means that after enough issues arise in seizures and prosecutions, they will use their dispositions to provide further clarification of what they can get away with.
FWS also maintained their position that the entire onus is on the ivory seller to prove themselves innocent. If they seize your ivory-handled knife, it is up to you to prove that it is legal. They have no obligation to prove it is illegal. So, yes, this means you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, the opposite of how justice is supposed to work in America.
Interstate Commerce
It is also extremely important to understand that the term "interstate commerce" is a legal term open to an exceptionally broad interpretation as a result of numerous precedent-setting court rulings. It doesn't mean what most people would assume. In today's world, the vast majority of commercial transactions have an interstate connection based on these precedents. Advertising of any sort, including a mere posting in an internet forum or on Facebook, even if not public, or any other promotion or offer sell, regardless of medium, could implicate interstate commerce.
Traveling to another state to sell is, without any doubt, interstate commerce. Even if you sell in the state in which you live, out-of-state customers or alleged "straw man" deals could violate the law. Moreover, many such sales involve telephone conversations or emails that could make them subject to being "interstate commerce." There have already been prosecutions under existing law for such transactions -- there is no reason to believe FWS will not become even more aggressive now that they are empowered with this rule.
This new rule does not prohibit donating or giving away your ivory specimen, or receiving an ivory item as a donation or a gift, provided it was lawfully acquired and there is no exchange for other goods or services involved. You can also pass along your ivory to your heirs. However, it's a Catch 22 that even if your ivory does not meet the antique or de minimis exceptions, and therefore has no monetary value whatsoever, precedent suggests that the IRS will estimate its value for estate purposes as if it could actually be sold or based on its black market value. In such a case you would not be able to sell it to pay estate taxes on the items.
Some armchair lawyers have seized upon this "giving away" allowance as a means to work their way around the restrictions in the rule, claiming that they would separate the ivory from the rest of the item for sale and just give the ivory portion to the new owner of the item at no cost. Anyone who thinks they can get away with that sort of bogus scheme is likely to be in for a painful and costly surprise courtesy of the Feds.
FWS has provided a fairly straightforward discussion of the rule, along with a table describing enforcement and all of the criteria for exceptions, at: http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf...final-rule.pdf.
You can click here to read the final rule as published in the Federal Register on June 6.
How all this eventually falls out will be largely a product of how far FWS decides to push the issues regarding the various criteria. The criteria are specific, but subject to interpretation and individual enforcement variation, particularly with regards to documentation. With the might of the federal government bearing down on them, many totally innocent victims of abusive enforcement of this ban will likely choose to just roll over because they either have no stomach to fight or don't have the financial means to fight, or both. The Feds are counting on that.
State Ivory and Fossil Ivory Bans
Note that the federal rule is separate from state ivory bans which are listed below:
New York: Ivory and Fossil Ivory
New Jersey: Ivory and Fossil Ivory
Washington: Ivory
California: Ivory and Fossil Ivory - Effective July 1, 2016 (a lawsuit challenging ban has been filed)
Hawaii: Ivory and Fossil Ivory - Effective June 30, 2017
State ivory bans have been stopped in 13 states this year.
continued......
part 2....
" Enforcement
As for enforcement, there's no reason the believe that FWS won't begin aggressive enforcement at the earliest opportunity in order to make examples of some unfortunate folks whose prosecutions will serve to get the message out that they mean business.
Knife Rights has opposed this rule, and state bans on ivory and fossil ivory, for the simple reason that they have a very significant adverse economic impact on millions of Americans with absolutely no positive impact on the alleged reason for the bans, poaching of elephants in Africa. Never once have proponents of theses bans been able to provide any rational connection between these bans on ivory that's been legally here in the U.S. for decades and the poaching in Africa.
The FWS and proponents of the bans have lied since day one about the size of the illegal elephant ivory market in the U.S. which is utterly insignificant compared to China, estimated at 95% or more, and insignificant compared to almost all other countries as well. The U.S. trade in illegal ivory was already essentially the lowest in the world before this ivory ban campaign began.
The FWS has continued to lie about the current situation in Africa which has actually seen a significant DECLINE in poaching of elephants since 2011, prior to when this rule was first proposed in 2012. This decline has been the result of a combination of enhanced law enforcement in Africa and Asia along with a drop in demand for commodities like ivory in China. These efforts were already achieving the desired reduction in illegal elephant poaching. The ban does nothing to further efforts to reduce poaching in Africa.
Moreover, FWS has continued to engage in double-speak in the final rule. Although they proclaimed the rule creates a near total ban on the trade of elephant ivory, they also claimed the economic impact on people and businesses would be minimal, which is, simply, an outright lie and they know it. This ban is going to cost Americans hundreds of millions of dollars! FWS also emphasized that their rule only applied to interstate commerce and does not limit people to trade ivory within a state, but the fact is, as noted above, most intrastate trade can be considered interstate trade.
Knife Rights opposed this ivory ban and will continue to oppose ivory bans as very bad for Americans, and ivory-handled and decorated knife owners in particular, and counterproductive for elephants in Africa. These bans just play into the hands of the radical animal rights groups who are raking in hundreds of millions of dollars through emotion-driven and blatantly false advertising to support their radical anti-hunting, anti-sustainable use agendas, as well as their inflated salaries, offshore slush funds and offshore pension funds.
We support the numerous efforts in Congress to address the issue, including the African Elephant Conservation and Legal Ivory Possession Act which would end the FWS's unilateral moratorium on the trade in lawfully owned ivory, including ivory-handled and decorated knives, while also strengthening measures to stop elephant poaching in Africa and punishing countries that smuggle illicit ivory, like China. In other words, actually addressing the issue of elephant poaching and doing something practical and effective to stop it, unlike this ban which does nothing but hurt honest Americans."
" Enforcement
As for enforcement, there's no reason the believe that FWS won't begin aggressive enforcement at the earliest opportunity in order to make examples of some unfortunate folks whose prosecutions will serve to get the message out that they mean business.
Knife Rights has opposed this rule, and state bans on ivory and fossil ivory, for the simple reason that they have a very significant adverse economic impact on millions of Americans with absolutely no positive impact on the alleged reason for the bans, poaching of elephants in Africa. Never once have proponents of theses bans been able to provide any rational connection between these bans on ivory that's been legally here in the U.S. for decades and the poaching in Africa.
The FWS and proponents of the bans have lied since day one about the size of the illegal elephant ivory market in the U.S. which is utterly insignificant compared to China, estimated at 95% or more, and insignificant compared to almost all other countries as well. The U.S. trade in illegal ivory was already essentially the lowest in the world before this ivory ban campaign began.
The FWS has continued to lie about the current situation in Africa which has actually seen a significant DECLINE in poaching of elephants since 2011, prior to when this rule was first proposed in 2012. This decline has been the result of a combination of enhanced law enforcement in Africa and Asia along with a drop in demand for commodities like ivory in China. These efforts were already achieving the desired reduction in illegal elephant poaching. The ban does nothing to further efforts to reduce poaching in Africa.
Moreover, FWS has continued to engage in double-speak in the final rule. Although they proclaimed the rule creates a near total ban on the trade of elephant ivory, they also claimed the economic impact on people and businesses would be minimal, which is, simply, an outright lie and they know it. This ban is going to cost Americans hundreds of millions of dollars! FWS also emphasized that their rule only applied to interstate commerce and does not limit people to trade ivory within a state, but the fact is, as noted above, most intrastate trade can be considered interstate trade.
Knife Rights opposed this ivory ban and will continue to oppose ivory bans as very bad for Americans, and ivory-handled and decorated knife owners in particular, and counterproductive for elephants in Africa. These bans just play into the hands of the radical animal rights groups who are raking in hundreds of millions of dollars through emotion-driven and blatantly false advertising to support their radical anti-hunting, anti-sustainable use agendas, as well as their inflated salaries, offshore slush funds and offshore pension funds.
We support the numerous efforts in Congress to address the issue, including the African Elephant Conservation and Legal Ivory Possession Act which would end the FWS's unilateral moratorium on the trade in lawfully owned ivory, including ivory-handled and decorated knives, while also strengthening measures to stop elephant poaching in Africa and punishing countries that smuggle illicit ivory, like China. In other words, actually addressing the issue of elephant poaching and doing something practical and effective to stop it, unlike this ban which does nothing but hurt honest Americans."
Meridanblades seems to be on top of this subject. CA Fish & Wildlife will be making unannounced
drop-in visits to CA cue-makers and there had better not be a single piece of ivory being used or
there's going to be some monster fines for the cue-makers. You can no longer use ivory or sell it in CA.
drop-in visits to CA cue-makers and there had better not be a single piece of ivory being used or
there's going to be some monster fines for the cue-makers. You can no longer use ivory or sell it in CA.