US Open changes

[JAM]

The ABP consists of the same players involved in the IPT and some new ones, they just don't have the marketing skill Kevin had. So far much like Kevin they are promising a better future for pool players.

Compared to pool promoters who just talk about prize money and added prize money, the ABP and IPT are more related than any other groups out there. The two are strikingly similar in how they conduct business. The IPT promises money and the ABP promises money (entry fees and players showing up). The main similarity is that both groups wanted/want to change how pool in America is organized.

I think you may be a wee bit confused. The ABP doesn't offer any money to anyone. They are dependent on promoters' giving money to others. The ABP is demanding that promoters put the money in escrow before the tournament begins to ensure timely payment.

And believe me, the ABP doesn't even come close to how many players are members compared to the IPT.

The ABP wants to change pool all right, but they don't want to exert any effort to do so. They want to change pool on somebody else's dime and hard work while they sit back and enjoy the fruits of somebody else's efforts. It's a nice gig if it happens, but I think most pool industry members are smarter about what to invest their money in.

If the ABP wanted traction, they'd have come at this entire pool world a little differently than making threats of boycotts. It's quite comical if you think about it. It's like going on strike and thereby never having an income for the rest of your life. Gee, that's a good idea!

 

[justnum]

I think you may be a wee bit confused. The ABP doesn't offer any money to anyone. They are dependent on promoters' giving money to others. The ABP is demanding that promoters put the money in escrow before the tournament begins to ensure timely payment.

And believe me, the ABP doesn't even come close to how many players are members compared to the IPT.

The ABP wants to change pool all right, but they don't want to exert any effort to do so. They want to change pool on somebody else's dime and hard work while they sit back and enjoy the fruits of somebody else's efforts. It's a nice gig if it happens, but I think most pool industry members are smarter about what to invest their money in.

If the ABP wanted traction, they'd have come at this entire pool world a little differently than making threats of boycotts. It's quite comical if you think about it. It's like going on strike and thereby never having an income for the rest of your life. Gee, that's a good idea!

Each threat they made on the US Open is showing they are gaining ground. I am as shocked as you are by how they negotiate.

But they are winning in their negotiations. Last year entry fees were held by the BCA. If this year's announcement by the Behrman's can be confirmed by the ABP as legitimate and not some con job, then that is another victory.

Being objective oriented the ABP is accomplishing the objectives stated in last years dispute with the Behrman's this year to the full extent.

 

[JAM]

Each threat they made on the US Open is showing they are gaining ground. I am as shocked as you are by how they negotiate.

But they are winning in their negotiations. Last year entry fees were held by the BCA. If this year's announcement by the Behrman's can be confirmed by the ABP as legitimate and not some con job, then that is another victory.

Being objective oriented the ABP is accomplishing the objectives stated in last years dispute with the Behrman's this year to the full extent.

The only thing the ABP did was shoot itself in the foot. The reason the BCA got involved, I believe, is to preserve the sanctity of the "U.S. Open" 9-ball championship. It is a heralded event for several decades now. Otherwise, I don't think the BCA would have even involved itself in this matter.

The ABP has demonstrated that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. They issued press releases of its membership, with some pool players shocked that their name was on the ABP membership list.

And the biggest faux pas, IMO, was having multiple ABP members posting on this forum under the forum name of ABPpros. They should have one voice speaking for them, answering questions, in this regard, especially during last year's U.S. Open boycott threat.

The ABP needs to have a united front, I agree, but they also should be offering something to promoters.

One example would be to have a charity Beat the Pro event during the festivities or a photo opportunity where each ABP member would invest one hour of their time at a booth giving autographs and having their pictures taken with fans. These are just some things I can think of off the top of my head at the time of this writing.

The ABP is like gimme, gimme, gimme, take, take, take, but doesn't want to give anything in return.

 

[justnum]

That is the same culture from the IPT concerning credit card billing.

At least the boys are direct about what they want. When they were with Kevin they would act like they weren't part of the "business culture."

The only thing the ABP did was shoot itself in the foot. The reason the BCA got involved, I believe, is to preserve the sanctity of the "U.S. Open" 9-ball championship. It is a heralded event for several decades now. Otherwise, I don't think the BCA would have even involved itself in this matter.

The ABP has demonstrated that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. They issued press releases of its membership, with some pool players shocked that their name was on the ABP membership list.

And the biggest faux pas, IMO, was having multiple ABP members posting on this forum under the forum name of ABPpros. They should have one voice speaking for them, answering questions, in this regard, especially during last year's U.S. Open boycott threat.

The ABP needs to have a united front, I agree, but they also should be offering something to promoters.

One example would be to have a charity Beat the Pro event during the festivities or a photo opportunity where each ABP member would invest one hour of their time at a booth giving autographs and having their pictures taken with fans. These are just some things I can think of off the top of my head at the time of this writing.

The ABP is like gimme, gimme, gimme, take, take, take, but doesn't want to give anything in return.

 

[JAM]

That is the same culture from the IPT concerning credit card billing.

At least the boys are direct about what they want. When they were with Kevin they would act like they weren't part of the "business culture."

I am not sure I understand the similarity of the IPT credit card billing and the ABP having a "business culture."

The IPT lost several million dollars and eventually went under. The ABP hasn't given one penny to a tournament or tour.

 

[justnum]

I
The IPT lost several million dollars and eventually went under. The ABP hasn't given one penny to a tournament or tour.

How much money will be made from ABP participation? Data like those numbers make our discussion much more interesting. But do you have them? Have you ever seen an Open without ABP pro attendance?

The similarity of the IPT credit card billing and the ABP "business culture" is promise, promise, promise then excuse, excuse, excuse.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

This goal is very admirable, but the method will not get your desired results. You'll never make an appreciable change if the bulk of the prize pool is still based on the entrants.

If you make too big of an adjustment to the potential winnings then you'll see a reduction in the number of entries. When your goal is to make money as a player then you will seek out tournaments that maximize the potential revenue to expense ratio. In other words, if you drop the prize money at the top then the average top player must play more tournaments per win to make the same amount of money. As we all know, one of the biggest expenses is travel related so keeping that low is in the best interest of the player. In the case of being able to support oneself playing pool there is a negligible difference between breaking even and losing money because the end result is that both are not good enough to continue the pursuit as an occupation. Therefore setting up tournaments in which more people simply break even, but fewer earn requisite payouts would not achieve any considerable result.

If the contest is still principally funded by the player entrants then it will very closely resemble gambling. A fundamental principle of gambling is that you must be paid off big when you do get paid off or you'll simply be defeated by the culmination of smaller losses. That's where pool is right now. Unless the system can bring in some form of external income you will always have an unsustainable system, which at best would generate a few profitable entrants at the expense of a lot of unprofitable ones.

I'm not sure that it's appropriate to compare a tournament with a guaranteed payout to gambling. But since you mentioned a fundamental principle of gambling, I'd like to mention a fundamental principle of investing, and that is to at least break even on your investments or you'll be defeated by the accumulation of smaller losses. The players from 9th place down to 96th places are fighting like dogs for crumbs and table scraps because the payouts after expenses are so meager.

Since the U.S. Open pays out all the way down to 96th place, I think the prize fund is being distributed too deep, which in turn, contributes to the relatively low payouts. The 65th-96th places pay out $1000 each. Perhaps Barry can halve this payout and then take the 16K and redistribute it among the 9th-64th places. IMO, it's important for more players who had a respectable tournament to not just break even but also make a profit too.

 

["CaliRed".]

I think you may be a wee bit confused.

Jam, you can't begin to understand just how accurate of a statement that is. His nym describes how ones brain feels, after digesting one of his rambling diatribes.


Sent from my mobile so this will be short and sweet

 

[Pushout]

I've met Charlie Williams. He is more soft spoken while being angry faced.

I would have been less shocked if you said Stevie Moore. That guy talks like he gets into (fist) fights a lot.

No offense, but how well do you know Stevie? People may have gotten that impression from some of the streamed stuff but he's never been that way as far as I know. Or, at least, far less argumentative than some pros I've known.

 

[Klink]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM View Post
I think you may be a wee bit confused.

Jam, you can't begin to understand just how accurate of a statement that is. His nym describes how ones brain feels, after digesting one of his rambling diatribes.


Sent from my mobile so this will be short and sweet

This is the understatement of the year!

 

[justnum]

It is tough to have any respect for the Behrman's gave in to the players after a little whining and complaining.

Is the Open worth attending now? Heck no. Who wants to be at an event where the players decide what happens. What will Barry do next let Earl run around bad mouthing every person watching him shoot.

 

[justnum]

No offense, but how well do you know Stevie? People may have gotten that impression from some of the streamed stuff but he's never been that way as far as I know. Or, at least, far less argumentative than some pros I've known.

The guy likes to joke around, and it can be confusing if you don't share his humor.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The only thing the ABP has going in its favor is that pro pool is in the crapper so no one has any leverage.

Say Paul Allen got a wild hair to jump in and started a professional tour with weekly tournaments as follows:

- Texas Express 10 Ball
- Blind draw - no seeding
- $20K added
- Alternate break

None of these parameters meets ABP requirements. Does anyone really think that none of its members would play this tour? More likely every single one of them would.

 

[justnum]

The Behrman's didn't take that chance last year after they let the BCA intervene. Maybe this year the Behrman's will have the backbone to tell the players the terms they can play on. Last year it was the ABP telling Barry what to do, and he did it, or is saying he will do it this year.

What did Barry get in exchange? A big nothing. The ABP got what they wanted, seeding and escrowed entry fee.

The only thing the ABP has going in its favor is that pro pool is in the crapper so no one has a any leverage.

Say Paul Allen got a wild hair to jump in and started a professional tour with weekly tournaments as follows:

- Texas Express 10 Ball
- Blind draw - no seeding
- $20K added
- Alternate break

None of these parameters meets ABP requirements. Does anyone really think that none of its members would play this tour? More likely every single one of them would.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

or a photo opportunity where each ABP member would invest one hour of their time at a booth giving autographs and having their pictures taken with fans.

They do that at NASCAR events and others too.
But that would be what, a commitment and too much like work for many.

I believe you have the APB pegged 100% Jen. Multiple posters representing the APB have used the one account. They basically have shown nothing but disdain for any of the AZ members opinions.

Well, if they can't get a bunch of know nothings like us on board, how are they going to accomplish much of anything else.

Believe it or not, there are many great opinions and suggestions that AZ members have offered. If they were as smart as they think they are, they would be taking note on what the masses are saying.

They may think they have a little dictatorship happening but the peons are restless.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The ABP apparently sanctioned the recent SBE event.

This from the ABP mission statement:

To our Tournament Promoters and Sponsors, our goal is to maximize your return on your investment in tournament and event production. We will achieve this by providing the full cooperation of the touring professionals. We will help maximize interest and attendance through advance communication and planning, demonstrating the highest level of professional behavior at all times and providing access to billiards professionals for promotional opportunities.

Let's hear some positive stuff about the ABP. What did they do for the SBE in the spirit of their mission statement? I think it would be good to let us know some of the positive things the ABP is doing so let's hear it. Did any members show up for photo shoots for pre-event posters and promotional materials? Did they conduct any meet and greets with event sponsors/VIP's? Did the ABP buy a booth at the show, perhaps with free lessons or trick shot demos by some of its star members? Visit any children's hospitals or other charities in the name of the event? Autograph sessions / photo-op for spectators? Perhaps challenge matches with fans for charitable donations, like for the BEF for example?

I didn't attend so I'd like to hear about all the good stuff the ABP did to reflect their commitment to support promoters and sponsors at this sanctioned event.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Yep, I'd like to hear too.
In all the ensuing threads with pics and descriptions of the event, I didn't hear one word re a booth. Maybe it did happen, but I doubt it. I hope it did myself. That way, I may have a bit of renewed faith in the APB.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Seeding sucks

Making this a seeded event seems to really kick the shortstop players in the ass. I am one of those players who does not have a chance in hell of beating the world champions, but it is possible for me to catch a good bracket and a good gear and win a match or 2. Why then would I want to pay 500 plus travel expenses to go here knowing full well my first draw was a killer? For the experience? Hmmm let me guess they shoot straighter, break better and play better safes and I would sit in the chair alot that about sums it up and didnt cost a penny. Granted entering this event you may draw a champion early on, or maybe later, but KNOWING you have one first round is what seeding does to us "lesser" players. For 500 entry you are essentially starting from the loser bracket. There are alot more players like me than there are Shanes in this.

And another thing, whoever said some players go farther than they "should" is 100 percent wrong. If that is the case give me a list of who will finish in order and lets see how much you know.

 

[justnum]

Benefits of ABP sanctioning

The obvious benefits of the ABP sanctioning are the events did well enough that planning next year's event can start.

Imagine if the ABP hadn't supported the BCA intervention at the Behrman tournament. We wouldn't even be talking about the changes at the upcoming Open.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

...Why then would I want to pay 500 plus travel expenses to go here knowing full well my first draw was a killer?...

I might be missing something here so correct me if I'm wrong. But if 32 players are seeded how does that affect your chances (as an unseeded player) of drawing one of these guys in the first round? Assume a full field and no byes so there are 128 first round matches. Regardless of where the top 32 guys are on the chart, since my name is in a blind draw I have 32 chances out of 128, or 25%, of catching one of these guys in the first round when the draw begins. Is this not correct? Thanks.