USA Mosconi Team

The Euro team outplays the U.S. flat out. Every time I watch it I see it over and over. They're safety play is far superior. They have much better control of speed. They don't choke as much.

I also agree, the U.S. players seem to be going for highlight clips. Of course, because of their weaker control of the cb they find themselves in those Hail Mary shots.

The Euro crowd is always there supporting, giving their team the home field advantage where ever the match is.

They are playing on a different level.

I don't see this year or any soon to come where things are gonna change.

Hate saying those things, but that's how I see it.
 
strmanglr scott said:
The Euro team outplays the U.S. flat out. Every time I watch it I see it over and over. They're safety play is far superior. They have much better control of speed. They don't choke as much.

I also agree, the U.S. players seem to be going for highlight clips. Of course, because of their weaker control of the cb they find themselves in those Hail Mary shots.

The Euro crowd is always there supporting, giving their team the home field advantage where ever the match is.

They are playing on a different level.

I don't see this year or any soon to come where things are gonna change.

Hate saying those things, but that's how I see it.
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Ditto on all counts.
 
vjmehra said:
Especially the safety play.

I think the US team still has a bit of the old bar mentality that ‘playing safe is playing dirty’!
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This is total nonsense.

The poor safety play by Americans has absolutely nothing to do with d!ck measuring. It is a simple result of playing against weaker competition who don't punish them for weak safety play. SVB is the only one who regularly goes deep enough in tournaments to play against the monsters. Safety play is like any other important skill. The longer you don't use it, the more it decays.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
This is total nonsense.

The poor safety play by Americans has absolutely nothing to do with d!ck measuring. It is a simple result of playing against weaker competition who don't punish them for weak safety play. SVB is the only one who regularly goes deep enough in tournaments to play against the monsters. Safety play is like any other important skill. The longer you don't use it, the more it decays.
Click to expand...

So you agree what I said, but disagree with the rationale...hardly total nonsense then!
 
ShortBusRuss said:
This is total nonsense.

The poor safety play by Americans has absolutely nothing to do with d!ck measuring. It is a simple result of playing against weaker competition who don't punish them for weak safety play. SVB is the only one who regularly goes deep enough in tournaments to play against the monsters. Safety play is like any other important skill. The longer you don't use it, the more it decays.
Click to expand...

I didn’t get out of what he said that poor safety play was about “dick measuring,” but instead just a bias towards shooting even in cases where a safety would be the better choice.
 
BRussell said:
I didn’t get out of what he said that poor safety play was about “dick measuring,” but instead just a bias towards shooting even in cases where a safety would be the better choice.
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Yes, apologies if it came across badly, I’m from the other side of the pond!
 
ShortBusRuss said:
This is total nonsense.

The poor safety play by Americans has absolutely nothing to do with d!ck measuring. It is a simple result of playing against weaker competition who don't punish them for weak safety play. SVB is the only one who regularly goes deep enough in tournaments to play against the monsters. Safety play is like any other important skill. The longer you don't use it, the more it decays.
Click to expand...

Agreed in principle, and it feeds on itself. Some of the offense-oriented choices that Team USA makes reflect how few safety battles they tend/expect to win against Europe.

A year ago, Johan left out Bergman, the player who played the best safeties of anyone on Team USA in the 2016 Mosconi Cup. In the 2017 Mosconi Cup, Team USA's best safety player was Billy Thorpe. Let's see if history repeats itself and Thorpe is omitted.
 
I find this thread amusing for an entirely different reason. When I've done commentary on the MC and remarked how much better Europe's players executed safety's, jump and kick shots, I often get criticized for being Pro Europe. Now here we have a thread where many of us are talking about the same thing and it's all good. Maybe that's why Lou is not on here yet, because I'm not the only one saying these things. :grin:
 
jay helfert said:
I find this thread amusing for an entirely different reason. When I've done commentary on the MC and remarked how much better Europe's players executed safety's, jump and kick shots, I often get criticized for being Pro Europe. Now here we have a thread where many of us are talking about the same thing and it's all good. Maybe that's why Lou is not on here yet, because I'm not the only one saying these things. :grin:
Click to expand...

Jay.. I have some thoughts based on my time at the Eurotour stop in Leende, Netherlands, and I'd like your opinion on them, if you feel comfortable giving it.

There has been some criticism of SVB by some on here, saying he is "not a team player". And that this leads to a certain lack of unity at the Mosconi Cup, and that perhaps Shane doesn't feel the pressure to perform for the team.

I gotta say.. Based upon my observations in Leende.. I think there might be a kernel of truth in there somewhere?

1. I observed that SVB tended to only watch Skylar and Billy's matches, as a general rule. I got the idea that he appreciated them for their much higher level of execution than the rest of the team, but I don't have any hard evidence to support this line of thought.

2. SVB played a local tournament the night before day 3 of Eurotour play, and I know for a fact that he was there until around 3AM or so, 30 minutes away from the Eurotour venue, with a 9AM match the next day. A 9AM match that he went on to lose, to someone I've never heard of. (but who WAS a good player, from what I saw.) The night before, I specifically asked Shane if he was gonna be good to go the next morning for his match (we left around 2AM ourselves, so we could try to get a few hours sleep and be up for Shane's match.), and to be honest, he pretty much communicated a total lack of concern for the Eurotour stop, in so many words. Like he didn't really feel any need to meet the expectations of the pool fans in America. And that the Eurotour didn't pay enough for him to give 110% effort. Like... He'd be fine with whatever place he took in the main tournament...

3. Shane didn't seem to care all that much about how some of the other players were doing in their matches. I saw him in the lobby area, or outside, and asked him how Shane McMinn was doing in his match, and his only response was a very noncommital "I don't know..", and a rather lackadaisical shoulder shrug. As in... It just wasn't all that important a question.

Personally.. I am pretty heavily invested in all my teammates when I play a league night, let alone a big team event, or attending a singles event with members of a team I am a part of. A lot of the team members did seem to be really cheering on everybody, so this attitude wasn't prevalent over the entire team, but still.

This can't be all that healthy, to know that your supposed "leader" might care more about the performance of certain members more than others?

What say you?
 
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jay helfert said:
I find this thread amusing for an entirely different reason. When I've done commentary on the MC and remarked how much better Europe's players executed safety's, jump and kick shots, I often get criticized for being Pro Europe. Now here we have a thread where many of us are talking about the same thing and it's all good. Maybe that's why Lou is not on here yet, because I'm not the only one saying these things. :grin:
Click to expand...

Safety play for sure is a huge factor but besides that, I don`t think that those single shots make the difference.
Yes, a jump, a bank or a tough combination wins you a rack here and there, but overall it is about minimizing unforced errors in open play.
I think we all experience the same when we play pool. The stronger player doesn`t beat us because of the superior shot making, but because we make mistakes and he does not.

In a format like the MC, one mistake might be enough to lose a whole match and that is a huge problem of the US players besides Shane.
Lately I saw matches of Oscar and Billy and both of them missed shots you can`t get away on a pro level, Oscar even lost his match because he missed an open shot.

That doesn`t mean that other players are perfect, as we saw with Kaci in the final in Leende or Alex` famous missed 9ball.

All that said, I still think this years MC might be closer although as it looks like the Europeans will have an even stronger team than last year.
 
Oze147 said:
Safety play for sure is a huge factor but besides that, I don`t think that those single shots make the difference. Yes, a jump, a bank or a tough combination wins you a rack here and there, but overall it is about minimizing unforced errors in open play. I think we all experience the same when we play pool. The stronger player doesn`t beat us because of the superior shot making, but because we make mistakes and he does not.
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I strongly disagree. You greatly oversimplify the difference between Team USA and Team Europe if you restrict your analysis to errors in execution. In truth, the difference is as much about conceptualization (decision making/shot design), and not just whether we choose offense or defense, but a) when we choose to play two way shots, b) when we choose a jump or a kick when both are available, c) which kick we choose when we opt to kick, and d) which safety we choose to play when defensive play is selected.

Total Errors = Errors in conceptualization + Errors in shot execution

We make more "Total Errors" than Europe and you, like the last few coaches of Team USA, are not sufficiently concerned about reducing the number of errors in conceptualization. Until they reduce this number, Team USA will continue to be underdogs at the Mosconi.

If you extend your definition of "unforced errors" to include unforced errors in conceptualization, then we'll be on the same page, and it is in the area of safety battles where Team USA has tended to make most of its conceptualization errors in recent Mosconi Cups.
 
jay helfert said:
I find this thread amusing for an entirely different reason. When I've done commentary on the MC and remarked how much better Europe's players executed safety's, jump and kick shots, I often get criticized for being Pro Europe. Now here we have a thread where many of us are talking about the same thing and it's all good. Maybe that's why Lou is not on here yet, because I'm not the only one saying these things. :grin:
Click to expand...


I don't understand what your point is concerning my lack of participation in this thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
I thought Shane mentioned on Facebook not wanting to play in the Mosconi this year. I could be wrong...
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Jay.. I have some thoughts based on my time at the Eurotour stop in Leende, Netherlands, and I'd like your opinion on them, if you feel comfortable giving it.

There has been some criticism of SVB by some on here, saying he is "not a team player". And that this leads to a certain lack of unity at the Mosconi Cup, and that perhaps Shane doesn't feel the pressure to perform for the team.

I gotta say.. Based upon my observations in Leende.. I think there might be a kernel of truth in there somewhere?

1. I observed that SVB tended to only watch Skylar and Billy's matches, as a general rule. I got the idea that he appreciated them for their much higher level of execution than the rest of the team, but I don't have any hard evidence to support this line of thought.

2. SVB played a local tournament the night before day 3 of Eurotour play, and I know for a fact that he was there until around 3AM or so, 30 minutes away from the Eurotour venue, with a 9AM match the next day. A 9AM match that he went on to lose, to someone I've never heard of. (but who WAS a good player, from what I saw.) The night before, I specifically asked Shane if he was gonna be good to go the next morning for his match (we left around 2AM ourselves, so we could try to get a few hours sleep and be up for Shane's match.), and to be honest, he pretty much communicated a total lack of concern for the Eurotour stop, in so many words. Like he didn't really feel any need to meet the expectations of the pool fans in America. And that the Eurotour didn't pay enough for him to give 110% effort. Like... He'd be fine with whatever place he took in the main tournament...

3. Shane didn't seem to care all that much about how some of the other players were doing in their matches. I saw him in the lobby area, or outside, and asked him how Shane McMinn was doing in his match, and his only response was a very noncommital "I don't know..", and a rather lackadaisical shoulder shrug. As in... It just wasn't all that important a question.

Personally.. I am pretty heavily invested in all my teammates when I play a league night, let alone a big team event, or attending a singles event with members of a team I am a part of. A lot of the team members did seem to be really cheering on everybody, so this attitude wasn't prevalent over the entire team, but still.

This can't be all that healthy, to know that your supposed "leader" might care more about the performance of certain members more than others?

What say you?
Click to expand...

Any chance he was just avoiding the American guy who wouldn’t leave him alone?:grin:
 
sjm said:
I strongly disagree. You greatly oversimplify the difference between Team USA and Team Europe if you restrict your analysis to errors in execution. In truth, the difference is as much about conceptualization (decision making/shot design), and not just whether we choose offense or defense, but a) when we choose to play two way shots, b) when we choose a jump or a kick when both are available, c) which kick we choose when we opt to kick, and d) which safety we choose to play when defensive play is selected.

Total Errors = Errors in conceptualization + Errors in shot execution

We make more "Total Errors" than Europe and you, like the last few coaches of Team USA, are not sufficiently concerned about reducing the number of errors in conceptualization. Until they reduce this number, Team USA will continue to be underdogs at the Mosconi.

If you extend your definition of "unforced errors" to include unforced errors in conceptualization, then we'll be on the same page, and it is in the area of safety battles where Team USA has tended to make most of its conceptualization errors in recent Mosconi Cups.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...ok, if I get it right, you want to say, that the US players play the "wrong" shot more often than the Europeans.
You might be right, but I still have a different view on that matter, just because I think it is difficult to say what is right or wrong, especially on the level this players have.

If a player decides to make a jump shot and misses it, it is hard to tell if it was a bad concept or bad execution. If he would have executed it perfectly, his conception would have been fine.
I think, maybe if a player overestimates his ability in the first place, you could call it an conceptional error...or maybe if he hasn`t the knowledge to see certain shots, escape routes etc..

So I think it is more like having weaker fundamentals, lack of focus or being solid under pressure than making errors in your decision process.
 
Oze147 said:
Hmmm...ok, if I get it right, you want to say, that the US players play the "wrong" shot more often than the Europeans.
You might be right, but I still have a different view on that matter, just because I think it is difficult to say what is right or wrong, especially on the level this players have.
Click to expand...

Your point is very reasonable that execution and conceptualization are intertwined and it can, at times, be tricky to pinpoint where an erroneous shot went wrong, as a mistake may be caused by poor decision making, poor execution, and sometimes even both. Still, the truth is that there are many situations where what went wrong it is crystal clear.

A simple example in conceptualization error is poor pattern play. A player may play the angle/path to the next ball incorrectly, thereby placing greater emphasis on speed control than would have otherwise been required. Even if exceptional execution leads to a good result, which often happens, an error was made in conceptualization. Such errors add up eventually, and the result is less consistency in running out the kind of racks that the world's best players expect to run. Year after year, Team Europe plays the patterns better than Team USA, choosing the right paths/angles with greater consistency, and it is one of the reasons they do a better job completing the runouts. Choices in pattern play is one of a few areas in which there is a conceptualization gap between Team Europe and Team USA.
 
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