Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[CJ Wiley]

Wait! I thought you said that it's impossible for anyone to hit exact center ball? Ah, maybe that's all part of the grand illusion......

Not impossible, many players can do it half the time, maybe 80% - that's going to result in an inconsistent game, I will see and hit the inside of center every time.... the cue ball ALWAYS goes where I'm thinking, not like "center ball strikers" that may hit left, right, or center.

Without a cut angle you can't create a zone, this is what the shortstops can't grasp, I actually use the cue ball to create every angle, not the object ball....this means I can just point my tip at the center or edge of every object ball and create every angle needed to Feel the ball Connect to the Exact Part of the Pocket......as well as a possible, we aren't designed to play pool, that's why knowing what the champion players do is important, they [subconsciously] have turned themselves into a Pool Playing Machine.....my role is to demonstrate/explain to players how it's done.....{only until 2o2oisover}....I have another gift I'll give everyone tomorrow, a way to develop Perfect Tempo before Christmas.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Razor]

This thread seems to have a nice balance of back-and-forth. I am currently taking the zen and somewhat other-world concepts and mixing them with the steady dose of known truth nuggets, allowing them to all coalesce together in my brain, and seeing what my own human computer spits out. From this combination of ideas, I am hoping to pick up at least one or two nuggets that will prove to be beneficial on the table. The discussion has been thought provoking, and for the most part (minus the chest puffing), enjoyable to read and contemplate. I thank all of you gents, and ladies as appropriate, for your mind stimulating contributions to this thread. If I have a great epiphany, I will be sure to share... Carry on my friends.

p.s. as a golfer, the golf analogy is great (for golf), as we do intend to hit shots that way to favor our most natural swing tendencies and to allow for the most margin of error in obtaining at least a satisfactory result. Well, I do anyways. I have a natural tendency to draw my golf ball on the drive, so I obviously line up to the right side of the fairway off the tee. So that makes sense to me. However, I cannot figure out how it would apply on the pool table. I am attempting to hit the cue ball to a specific target in as a straight line as possible to be honest. I am not 'fading' or 'drawing' (as in golf) the CB on purpose - why introduce the extra variables of squirt and swerve (unless I need to apply spin for position)? WTH is going on here? My mind is melting.....................

 

[Patrick Johnson]

the golf analogy is great (for golf) ... However, I cannot figure out how it would apply on the pool table.

It doesn't, of course.

pj
chgo

 

[gregcantrall]

Striking center ball is not possible. It is 1 1/8” from any point you can strike on the ball.
The importance of “knowledge” of center ball is the key. I don’t know any coach that advocates playing thru center ball exclusively. The teaching will usually be, use english in moderation and as needed.
My center ball practice is strengthening my visual perspective. With a hard tip and no chalk, I get instant feed back if I am more than a taste or even touch off center. Strength attained with the practice allows me to have confidence that I am applying the precise flavor that I am seeking to apply to the shot. Pretty sure you have experience with the confidence factor.

Let The Ball Teach You:wink:

 

[garczar]

Striking center ball is not possible. It is 1 1/8” from any point you can strike on the ball.
The importance of “knowledge” of center ball is the key. I don’t know any coach that advocates playing thru center ball exclusively. The teaching will usually be, use english in moderation and as needed.
My center ball practice is strengthening my visual perspective. With a hard tip and no chalk, I get instant feed back if I am more than a tast or even touch off center. Strength attained with the practice allows me to have confidence that I am applying the precise flavor that I am seeking to apply to the shot. Pretty sure you have experience with the confidence factor.

Let The Ball Teach You:wink:

You're talking about the middle or 'core center' of the ball. When shooting the center is basically the cross-hair intersection of the vertical and horizontal axis and not the middle core center.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're talking about the middle or 'core center' of the ball. When shooting the center is basically the cross-hair intersection of the vertical and horizontal axis and not the middle core center.

Yes, but the "equator" tilts with the angle of the cue, so whenever we're hitting on the tilted equator we're also aiming right at the "core center" of the ball. That's how we can get draw on the CB when hitting it right on the horizontal "equator" - we're actually hitting below "core center".

pj
chgo

 

[Jimbojim]

Striking center ball is not possible. It is 1 1/8” from any point you can strike on the ball.
The importance of “knowledge” of center ball is the key. I don’t know any coach that advocates playing thru center ball exclusively. The teaching will usually be, use english in moderation and as needed.
My center ball practice is strengthening my visual perspective. With a hard tip and no chalk, I get instant feed back if I am more than a taste or even touch off center. Strength attained with the practice allows me to have confidence that I am applying the precise flavor that I am seeking to apply to the shot. Pretty sure you have experience with the confidence factor.

Let The Ball Teach You:wink:

My coach is a big advocate to not be afraid to load the cueball to achieve pocket speed. Use the spin to bring you where you need to and hit softer. He's right!

 

[HawaiianEye]

My coach is a big advocate to not be afraid to load the cueball to achieve pocket speed. Use the spin to bring you where you need to and hit softer. He's right!

The keys are knowing what to do, when to do it, and having the abilities to actually do it.

 

[hlymnstr14]

CJ, I would be interested to get your thoughts on why you won't get the desired feedback and how that is different than using English? Put another way - what makes it different than using a little spin?

I'm late to this post but it's easier to adjust for spin and swerve than it is to hit a straight shot with straight center. You watch pro bowlers, they throw a hook, they don't throw a straight ball. Golfers don't hit straight balls. It's hard to hit or throw a ball straight.

Its much easier to lineup slightly off on a long straight in shot and hit a touch of inside and let it deflect over to the path. Or a shot that has a slight angle, lineup straight in and deflect it just a bit with a touch of inside to make it. Once you can master accounting for the deflection and using it to your advantage, rather than always trying to overcome it and eliminate it, it will open up a whole new game. Your shot making will increase 25% and your feel for the cue ball will also increase. You'll never "aim" again.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... it's easier to adjust for spin and swerve than it is to hit a straight shot with straight center.

Does "easier" mean you miss less? I don't believe it. Hit 50 or so each way and prove it to yourself and us.

pj
chgo

 

[Razor]

Your shot making will increase 25% and your feel for the cue ball will also increase.

How have you quantified this 25%? By repeated testing and measurement of your own shot making? I would like to believe and hope it is true for you, but sounds dubious at best when applied to someone else's game or potential.

~Razor

 

[hlymnstr14]

Does "easier" mean you miss less? I don't believe it. Hit 50 or so each way and prove it to yourself and us.

pj
chgo

i shoot straight shots and those not so straight in shots like that every time. and long cut shots, i shoot with either touch of outside or inside depending what i want to do position wise. i can make shots either way or miss shots either way, but i will make more long shots using a touch of inside or outside. i guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

try it. set up some long straight in shots. lineup slightly to the right. then hit the cue ball about 1/2 tip of low right or just straight right and hit it firm.

then setup on some long, not quite straight in shots, where you need to cut the ball to left. then setup straight in, hit the cue ball with about 1/2 tip of low left or straight stun left and hit it firm.

for me, it's just easier than trying to actually aim straight in. and i use an OB classic pro shaft with a kamui black clear SS tip. just works for me.

you may not shoot like that all the time but it's a great club to have in your pool golf bag.

 

[hlymnstr14]

How have you quantified this 25%? By repeated testing and measurement of your own shot making? I would like to believe and hope it is true for you, but sounds dubious at best when applied to someone else's game or potential.

~Razor

i have not charted my makes and misses, i'll be honest. how about i replace 25% more with, you'll make a significantly higher % of shots and you can determine what the % is? I just threw out a # that to me, seemed reasonable. even a 5% increase in shot make would be significant.

in a nutshell, i undercut with inside or over cut with outside to pocket most long shots. and it depends on what i want the cue ball to as to whether i use inside or outside. i'm not trying to spin the ball in with either, i'm creating a path to the ball and i hit the balls firm.

i'll still use center at times if the shot calls for it. all of these things just add to your list of tools at your disposal.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i shoot straight shots and those not so straight in shots like that every time. and long cut shots, i shoot with either touch of outside or inside depending what i want to do position wise. i can make shots either way or miss shots either way, but i will make more long shots using a touch of inside or outside. i guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

try it. set up some long straight in shots. lineup slightly to the right. then hit the cue ball about 1/2 tip of low right or just straight right and hit it firm.

then setup on some long, not quite straight in shots, where you need to cut the ball to left. then setup straight in, hit the cue ball with about 1/2 tip of low left or straight stun left and hit it firm.

for me, it's just easier than trying to actually aim straight in. and i use an OB classic pro shaft with a kamui black clear SS tip. just works for me.

you may not shoot like that all the time but it's a great club to have in your pool golf bag.

You have to hit the CB just as accurately either way, so adding squirt/swerve/throw variables isn't an objective advantage. You might see the shot best that way, but that's personal preference.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

This thread seems to have a nice balance of back-and-forth. I am currently taking the zen and somewhat other-world concepts and mixing them with the steady dose of known truth nuggets, allowing them to all coalesce together in my brain, and seeing what my own human computer spits out. From this combination of ideas, I am hoping to pick up at least one or two nuggets that will prove to be beneficial on the table. The discussion has been thought provoking, and for the most part (minus the chest puffing), enjoyable to read and contemplate. I thank all of you gents, and ladies as appropriate, for your mind stimulating contributions to this thread. If I have a great epiphany, I will be sure to share... Carry on my friends.

p.s. as a golfer, the golf analogy is great (for golf), as we do intend to hit shots that way to favor our most natural swing tendencies and to allow for the most margin of error in obtaining at least a satisfactory result. Well, I do anyways. I have a natural tendency to draw my golf ball on the drive, so I obviously line up to the right side of the fairway off the tee. So that makes sense to me. However, I cannot figure out how it would apply on the pool table. I am attempting to hit the cue ball to a specific target in as a straight line as possible to be honest. I am not 'fading' or 'drawing' (as in golf) the CB on purpose - why introduce the extra variables of squirt and swerve (unless I need to apply spin for position)? WTH is going on here? My mind is melting.....................

I have a lot of fun drawing a bridge between techniques used at the highest levels of golf and pool, they are very similar.

These extra variables is not being added, like golf, I'm treating the pocket like a fairway or green and dividing into 3 sections. The inside, outside and center of the pocket - using the "draw shot" in golf as an analogy I align to the inside of the pocket, and the inside of the cue ball (just a hair, maybe a 64th of an inch) then I make sure I accelerate to force the object ball to over-cut slightly (because of the perception not the deflection although if the ball does deflect it is still going in the pocket zone) just like you'd align to the right side of the fairway in golf and draw the ball to the center, if it doesn't draw it hits where you're aiming, if it draws too much it hits the outside of the fairway (or pocket).

This is different than aiming at the center of the pocket, if the pocket is 4.5 inches you'd have one inch on either side, but I aim at the inside of the pocket zone and have the 2 inches (if the balls are 2.5 inches) at the center and outside of the pocket for my margin of error. This is the same amount in terms of inches, but it's more because I hit the cue ball in a way that guarantees the object ball will over-cut slightly......ideally the object ball will contact the center (that's where I calibrate the shot to hit) and if it does deflect I'll have a "bail out area" on the outside of the pocket. I call this the "3 Part Pocket System" treating the pocket as a zone, exactly like golfers negotiate the green or fairway with a draw or fade.

As long as I hit the cueball slightly to the inside and accelerate the pocket seem bigger than normal, if I tried to hit the center of the cue ball and the center of the pocket I'd have less margin of error and acceleration would not enhance the size of the pocket zone....I'd also have 3 possible variables instead of two so I'd have less of a chance to know for sure why a shot may miss the pocket zone....at my level I HAVE to know immediately so I can calibrate the shot back to the middle of the pocket on the very next shot (if possible).

The Game is the Teacher

 

[CJ Wiley]

Changing tip elevation without skew is a technique I have yet to master. FH or BH it's seldom a simple up/down adjustment. You?

I'd highly recommend not using "Back hand English" by just moving your back hand, this doesn't change your visual perspective. I pivot on some shots, and definitely on bank shots, however, the pivoting isn't just done by my back hand, it's achieved using my body, from the feet up, so my visual perspective changes along with the pivot....."back hand English" doesn't do this and may work at times, although it's not as effective as controlling the pivot with your body.

When I change any upper body angles I try to initiate the movement with my lower body, the foundation of the body structure. This is vitally important, my TIP Banking Secrets gives me a chance to show how this works best in detail (43 chapters).

The Game is the Teacher

 

[hlymnstr14]

You have to hit the CB just as accurately either way, so adding squirt/swerve/throw variables isn't an objective advantage. You might see the shot best that way, but that's personal preference.

pj
chgo

I think CJ explains it best. Aiming at the center of the pocket is harder than lining up to one side and then deflecting the cue ball with TOI or TOoutside because your miss area is now the whole pocket and it's easier to PERCEIVE the edge of the pockets than middle of the pocket.

so if i'm cutting a ball to the right. i lineup to undercut the pocket to that edge of the pocket. then i hit it with a TOI, there's no chance i undercut it because i'm already lining up at the edge and i'm going to force the cue ball away with TOI. so now, i can be off almost the whole pocket and still make the shot.

If i'm aiming at the center of the pocket and i don't hit the cue ball dead center, i'm still going to deflect the cue ball and now my margin of error is half the pocket.

To me, it's easier to see that i'm undercutting or overcutting a shot than seeing that trying to pick up the actual line and aiming for that spot. and my adjustment isn't a pocket 9 ft away and to the right, it's the tip on my cue by using 1/4 tips of english right in front of my eye for the adjustment.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think CJ explains it best.

CJ’s explanation has been shown to be illogical, but if that works for you, good luck with it.

pj
chgo

 

[nick serdula]

You practice the stop shot stroke all distances up to about 6 or 7 feet. The only reason is it is the only way to know exactly where you are aiming. If the rock spins after contact no good. If the rock moves after contact no good. You have to practice a speed that moves the cue ball with control 7 feet back and follow twice as far as that. Then when you can do that for three shots in a row long and short you can hit where you are aiming. Constant speed comes with not thinking about it. You hit most everything about the same. The action on your cue is the power. But until you can hit where you are aiming you will have no chance. Center ball is where your brain sets up before you even bend over. The approach allows everything to just settle in. Dead nuts. Think all you want. Swing all you want. This is how it is done. Point. Click. Everything has already happened before you bend over. No thinking. Set up in dead line and swing. That is where even the best eat it. No approach. Center ball gives all that. You just know. Why is it the hungrier or madder some players get the best of their game shows up? They lost the weakness of thinking about it!
Nick :_

 

[HawaiianEye]

CJ’s explanation has been shown to be illogical, but if that works for you, good luck with it.

pj
chgo

If anything works for you, and it is consistently repeatable, keep doing it and quit listening to other people who are trying to tell you that your way is “wrong”.