Using Chess Clocks in a Tournament?

JarnoV

JarnoV

JarnoV
Silver Member
Bob Jewett mentioned the possibility of using chess clocks to speed up slow play, which certainly isn't a new idea, but the comment got me curious as to how to implement this in tournaments. And whether or not anyone else has tried this in practice.

So the basic idea is that you have a certain "grace period" for every shot, say 20 seconds, after which you start to decrease your total time for the game. In other words, you have a fixed amount of time guaranteed for each shot and certain amount of extra time for each frame, say two minutes.

In chess the setup is easier as both players have an easy physical access to the clock, but how do you do it in a pool match? Place the clock on a nearby table and let the shooter himself press clock after shooting? And similar for each shot during an inning? And presumably it's an automatic loss of the game if you run your extra time to exactly zero. You can use your grace period for your shots, but if you have only seconds in your extra time, you have to do it within the grace period.

The reason I'm curious is that it sounds like an idea that many would like to see experimented with for tournament play. And although you couldn't guarantee that any particular match ends within a fixed time period, you'd still have pretty good estimates for the duration of the matches.

I want to experiment with this, but if anyone has any experiences trying it in practice I'd love to hear.
 
JarnoV said:
Bob Jewett mentioned the possibility of using chess clocks to speed up slow play, which certainly isn't a new idea, but the comment got me curious as to how to implement this in tournaments. And whether or not anyone else has tried this in practice.

So the basic idea is that you have a certain "grace period" for every shot, say 20 seconds, after which you start to decrease your total time for the game. In other words, you have a fixed amount of time guaranteed for each shot and certain amount of extra time for each frame, say two minutes.

In chess the setup is easier as both players have an easy physical access to the clock, but how do you do it in a pool match? Place the clock on a nearby table and let the shooter himself press clock after shooting? And similar for each shot during an inning? And presumably it's an automatic loss of the game if you run your extra time to exactly zero. You can use your grace period for your shots, but if you have only seconds in your extra time, you have to do it within the grace period.

The reason I'm curious is that it sounds like an idea that many would like to see experimented with for tournament play. And although you couldn't guarantee that any particular match ends within a fixed time period, you'd still have pretty good estimates for the duration of the matches.

I want to experiment with this, but if anyone has any experiences trying it in practice I'd love to hear.
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They would have to be modified to allow for multiple shots in one inning. Also, it would be best if a referee reset the clock for the players because having to push a button after every shot is a distraction that I, as a player don't need.
 
Masayoshi said:
They would have to be modified to allow for multiple shots in one inning.
Click to expand...

The idea was that you have a simple delay for certain fixed time period, say 30 seconds, during which you can make your shot without it decreasing your total time. Which would allow as many shots per inning as you need.

Also, it would be best if a referee reset the clock for the players because having to push a button after every shot is a distraction that I, as a player don't need.
Click to expand...

A referee per table is not feasible for my/our purposes. That's why I'm asking whether it's doable with digital chess clocks.
 
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i wrote a shot clock program for the Shane/Earl match, but they decided not to use it at the last minute. Let me know if anyone is interested in it
 
Kind of sounds like the timers used for backgammon online. If I'm playing a blitz game, I have 15 seconds per move (recharges after every move) and 1:30 of thinking time (doesn't recharge).

You're right in the only problem being who hits the clock. It'd be awfully disruptive to the general flow of the game to have the player literally run back to the clock to hit it, and a timekeeper for the match might not always be available. And I personally wouldn't trust my opponent to hit the clock the moment I strike the ball. Hmm...
 
JarnoV said:
The idea was that you have a simple delay for certain fixed time period, say 30 seconds, during which you can make your shot without it decreasing your total time. Which would allow as many shots per inning as you need.



A referee per table is not feasible for my/our purposes. That's why I'm asking whether it's doable with digital chess clocks.
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You have to reset your time after every shot or else your time runs down. In chess, there is only one turn before your opponent gets to the table. In pool if you run say a 5 pack on your opponent, you will be at the table for 15-20 minutes or more. In that time, unless you go back to the clock to reset it after every shot, you will run out of time. I don't think players will be very happy having to go back to the clock after every shot. Also, what happens when a player runs out of time? Is it loss of match or just a foul? Loss of match seems like too harsh of a penalty.
 
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I'm thinking it's easier than that. How about if each match is given a total amount of time maximum, say an hour, which could be adjusted based on the length of the race. Then each player gets half the total time on their clock. The clock starts at the break and after your turn you press the button and your opponent is on the clock. After the game ball is sunk, the clock stops for both players while the balls are racked.

If a player runs out of time, he loses a game on the wire and his side of the match goes on a 30 second shot clock. (You would need a ref or timekeeper for this one.)

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Brian in VA
 
The chess clock I got for pool only gives the grace period at the start of your inning. We used it for 14.1, and there was not much problem switching the clock, since the innings are longer and if a player was blocked by other players from returning to the clock, his opponent would switch the clock for him. One useful feature of this is that the players are encouraged to return to their seats.

One problem is how big the penalty should be. At nine ball, if a slow player dominates the table and is ahead 7-1 going to 8 and runs out of time, losing the match for slowness seems severe. I suppose you could time by the rack.
 
In my opinion::

If you want to go down the route of using a chess clock for pool::
A) allot each player a certain amount of time (say 5 minutes for 9-ball)
B) within 5 seconds of the last ball comming to a stop, the incomming player must start his clock.
C) as long as time does not run out, the player may take as much time as he likes (or as little) per shot and in total.
D) when time runs out, it becomes the 'other' players turn until the 'other' player's clock (also) runs out of time*.
E) when both players have run out of time, the game is a draw.

Thus, maximum game length is 10 minutes.



(*)In this case the 'other' player can miss and remain at the table. Thus, the 'at table' player really (REALLY) does not want to hit his time limit. Thus, even safety battles must be performed rapidly.
 
A couple of issues need to be overcome to make a chess style clock work. As Bob mentioned, if one player is way ahead in the race is it fair that he should lose the match because he ran out of time?

Also, what about a situation where both players are real low on time and neither could win no matter how fast they played? Would they be running up to the table take a foul and run back to turn off their clock just so they can win by having their opponent run out of time first? At that point it would look like speed pool, but with neither player really concerned about the actual play at the table, just minimizing their clock time.

There are scenarios where the entire strategy of the match could just be managing the clock rather than in response to the layout of the table. I'd hate to see a match decided this way.

Maybe there's a way but it isn't as straightforward as it sounds.
 
First Time Clock in a Chess Tournament.........

JarnoV said:
Bob Jewett mentioned the possibility of using chess clocks to speed up slow play, which certainly isn't a new idea, but the comment got me curious as to how to implement this in tournaments. And whether or not anyone else has tried this in practice.

So the basic idea is that you have a certain "grace period" for every shot, say 20 seconds, after which you start to decrease your total time for the game. In other words, you have a fixed amount of time guaranteed for each shot and certain amount of extra time for each frame, say two minutes.

In chess the setup is easier as both players have an easy physical access to the clock, but how do you do it in a pool match? Place the clock on a nearby table and let the shooter himself press clock after shooting? And similar for each shot during an inning? And presumably it's an automatic loss of the game if you run your extra time to exactly zero. You can use your grace period for your shots, but if you have only seconds in your extra time, you have to do it within the grace period.

The reason I'm curious is that it sounds like an idea that many would like to see experimented with for tournament play. And although you couldn't guarantee that any particular match ends within a fixed time period, you'd still have pretty good estimates for the duration of the matches.

I want to experiment with this, but if anyone has any experiences trying it in practice I'd love to hear.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of how the time clock came to be used in chess tournaments.

Several decades ago, two chess players were both leaning forward, quietly and very intently staring at the chessboard. Neither one moved for almost eleven hours. Then one looked up, looked over at the other one and said,"Oh, is it my turn?"
.........Sorry. Put me in "time-out".

Will Prout
 
would work if per game

I used to play in chess tournaments and they do it two different ways. One way is so much time per game. You have say 15 minutes for all your moves in total. If the flag drops you lose.
This lets you take more time on moves that need it while moving fast and using little time in easy positions.
The other way is so many moves (innings) in a set amount or time. It is often 40 moves in 2 hours. After you use your 2 hours it goes to 20 moves in one hour. Most chess tournaments take 2 days and you play 5 or 6 games. For pool game 15 minutes would would mean a rack could not take over 30 minutes, but you could use 5 minutes to plan your run or shoot the hard one.
 
Correct me if I am wrong but in speed chess I believe each player is given X amount of minutes to finish the game.

I am not sure how this could work in pool. Those clocks are used to pause after each move so you know how much total time is remaining.

I guess it might make things interesting from a offensive point of view since playing a safe would add time to your total.
 
chess clocks are two clocks in one

each clock has two timers. When a player pushes a button his clock stops and the other players clock starts. If playing game in 15 minutes each dial is set for 15 minutes. One player often takes longer per move than the other. You may have 10 minutes left on your clock while the other player may have more or less. The amount of time the other player takes does not affect the amount of time on your clock. They can use up all thier time and you may have 10 minutes or more. As your opponents time gets low they will have to shoot faster because if the flag drops on your dile you lose
 
youngstownkid said:
i wrote a shot clock program for the Shane/Earl match, but they decided not to use it at the last minute. Let me know if anyone is interested in it
Click to expand...

Is there an app for that? Sounds good, I would like to use it for some of the slowokes I play. What if you get into a game that goes down to the last few ballss and turns into a defense of one ball? I have played end games that. Take twenty minutes to finish.
 
I also spent quite a bit of time exploring different ways of timing players and I found that it's really not possible to have the players monitor themselves during a match. It's too distracting.

The answer lies with an organized and efficient TD who will set rules regarding slow play and stick to them. Usually, that means if a match is scheduled for an hour and a half, then approximately half the match should be played within 45 minutes. If not, then the TD should then monitor the match for a few innings, and if play is slow, then the match should be put on the clock. Sometimes the TD can isolate it to one partiuclar player who may have a reputation for slow play, and can then put only that player on the clock.

But it all comes down to having a TD who is willing to go the extra yard to insure that slow play isn't allowed. Once players realize that they can't get away with it, you'd be surprised at how they speed up their games.
 
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