Using full spin

Willowbrook Wolfy

Willowbrook Wolfy

Going pro
How often do you take your English to the extreme? And how often do the best players?

So there is all this talk about LD shafts and CF but how often do they really come in handy? Thats the sub question to the question. Sure you can impose more spin with less deflection, but what I’m asking is how often players actually use enough left/right to even create much deflection? I’ve personally mentioned that from a confidence standpoint shooting a cut down the rail with outside does seem to be easier with my keilwood shaft. But shooting it with inside is easier with a regular. Thats like yin/yang and an even trade off though. And full English which I rarely use on those.


Personally I almost never use much left/right. Maybe a tip and an half at most. Usually around a tip. Anything more rarely comes up in a game these days because the shots are better planned now, and I have to actually adjust my stance if playing max left/right. So what is that a 2mm deflection or something? Less maybe? Can anyone tell the difference between 2mm and 1.6mm from 2 feet away? Even on a force follow I don’t really hit follow to the limit. Two tips works fine. Occasional full on 9 footer. Maybe when I draw I use max sometimes no matter the table size. Thats with an 11.75mm tip for reference.

Now it might be that I’m older now, or maybe better now. But I can also remember being a hard core banger and everything was full left/right. It almost never comes up these days. Usually only need it on certain kicks, sometimes on banks and that’s about it. How much will deflection even matter on a kick shot? Then there are some close softer hits that need extreme. But once again does deflection even come into play on those type shots?

Now don’t get me wrong here I see a lot of players use a lot of English on a lot of shots. But honestly not so much from the better shooters. Maybe 25% of them use a lot of spin regularly.


So. I ranted a bit. How often do players in general use max spin and do most better players use max spin frequently?

Subquestion:How often does deflection/shaft type even come into play when you are a great player?
 
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The less I spun the balls the better I shot, the inverse true too. There is no need to use a lot of spin the vast majority of the time.

I was banging balls with a young lad. He declared it wasn't challenging enough playing me, he would give me the seven. Next game I got to the six, reminded him that the seven was my money ball, and juiced the cue ball enough to go around the table and slide up six inches or so behind the seven ball dead in line. Mike said that was a little too good and broke down his stick. A shame, first, last, and only time I have been given the seven!

I play a very simple game trying to keep my shots between sixteen and twenty-four inches, a few inches either side of that isn't an issue. With the cue ball twenty inches from the object ball very few shots are hard.

Reminds me, another maxim of mine, plan so that I never have to shoot a shot where both pocketing the ball and getting shape are hard.

Final thought, keep the lead for yourself. Good advice shooting pool or dancing with a fat girl! By this I mean make the other player react to you, don't have to react to them.

Hu
 
I quite often use maximum spin, and from what I've seen the top players do as well.

To determine how often it should be used it helps to understand the purpose. Spin is used to change the direction of the cue ball off of rails, so it isn't necessary when playing stop shots or very short distance maneuvers. It is very useful when moving the cue ball up and down table. So if you split the game into hold shots (shots where the cue ball moves just a few inches or a feet) and move shots (shots where the cue ball contacts one or more rails and travels some distance) it helps to understand how often to use it.

In the past they played straight pool. Straight pool allows you to choose your pattern to minimize cue ball movement. For that reason when the old timers said the game should be 90% vertical axis without sidespin I believe they were correct for that discipline. 8 ball is similar to straight pool in that you can minimize cue ball movement, but due to the restrictions and problems that need to be resolved I have found it averages closer to 75% vertical axis. 9 ball is a move game and while there are racks that are connect the dots, I'd say it's closer to 50% vertical axis with sidespin on the other half the shots.

Now, is this all extreme spin or is much of it just 'one tip from center'? That I haven't analyzed too deeply, but I will say that it is often full spin.

Some people make the case that spin makes the game more difficult. To that I say many things make the game more difficult. Long shots and firm speeds make the game more difficult as well. Sidespin can often replace the need for power and distance. I could illustrate this but would probably need to make a quite longer post or even a video. So if the choice was 'use maximum sidespin or use centerball' and the outcomes would be the same, sure, use center ball. But if the choice is 'use maximum sidespin to play the line of position with finesse speed and guarantee a good shot with a good angle' versus 'get a flat angle to power draw the ball diagonally through traffic length of the table to hopefully get a shot without knowing what angle you're going to have', well, I'd much prefer the sidespin route.

One final note: My preference for sidespin is largely because it reduces the need for speed. There are only two levers in controlling the cue ball- backspin and sidespin. Backspin wears off quickly and thus requires much more power than using sidespin (which wears off much, much slower). Using big angles and rolling cue balls using sidespin to control direction allows a much more finesse game, whereas flat angles with backspin requires a lot of power.

But this changes on new cloth. New cloth has so much less friction that backspin doesn't require near the power it does on club tables. Also, sidespin doesn't grab as much on new cloth as it does on worn rails. So when watching the pros play they shoot a lot of stun shots with a little spin where on a worn cloth they would be shooting a rolling ball with a lot of spin. You will see a difference in how much backspin and sidespin pros use going from new to worn cloth. On the matchroom tables they still use spin, but when they go to the pool rooms to spar and match up the big draw shots go away and the three tips of sidespin come out more than ever.

I could elaborate MUCH more on this subject but this is my attempt to keep within the format of a reasonable reply length. But I believe the aversion to maximum sidespin is the biggest leak for players from 400-600 Fargorate and consider this more important than good fundamentals. I know I will get mobbed out by the masses for stating this but if I had a choice between a guy with a jabby stroke and a good use of spin versus a guy with beautiful technique that stayed within a tip of center, I'd predict the spinner gets the cash. They are obviously both requirements for high level pool, I am just trying to emphasize my point and strongly, strongly, strongly encourage players to learn how to apply and control maximum spin.
 
I use max spin in certain circumstances very often. When balls are on the rail near the pocket, hitting softly with maximum inside 3 rails gets you a path guaranteed to not scratch compared to coming back one rail. You can traverse the table without much effort.

Also max spin rail reversals allow you to manufacture some surprising angles. Super useful for one pocket.

In 1C and 3C I use max spin much more often than pool.
 
Tin Man said:
Spin is used to change the direction of the cue ball off of rails.

One final note: My preference for sidespin is largely because it reduces the need for speed.
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I’ve quoted 2 snippets above from your post as IMO it encapsulates the 2 different viewpoints players have on spin depending on their skill levels from my observations.

Players below shortstop level generally hold the 1st snippet as what they believe spin is for, “to change the direction of the cue ball off the rails”.

Players shortstop level to professionals tend to view spins main use as a variant of the 2nd snippet. They tend to “use spin more to control speed”.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So deflection/shaft type come into play more often overall for great players...?

pj
chgo
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I think all the marginal effects are more important for better players. Players at the 400 level miss so many shots from their own broken mechanics that the small stuff has no noticeable effect. If a player misses only 1% of the shots they try, an effect that comes in on only 1% of shots can double their miss rate.

In my experience, the majority of pool players never try to spin the ball significantly. They have no idea what can be done. They overlook relatively easy plays because of that lack of knowledge/technique.
 
I do not think much about how much spin (L<->R) I put on CB, the amount has been burned into a section of my vision center of my brain. So, when I see a certain shot, my brain instantly spits out how much spin is needed to "make" the shot (often none at all). Then my pattern matcher looks at the table and decides the best handkerchief area on the table to leave CB for the next shot, and this secondary consideration, then, chooses the amount of spin (L<->R) and the amount of power moderator (T<->B). I rarely think about it, it is all done in my subconscious.

The execution part is then easy.
 
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