Using Top for Rail Shots vs Position Play

[greyghost]

How can you be sure that you are not aiming in your normal way to make the ball and taking contact-induced throw subconsciously into account and hitting the cushion first?

cant but at least they not using the highest juice they can on all rail cuts

 

[JMASTERJ]

It sounds like you are a very beginner player just as we all once were. Start looking around Dr. Dave's site. Literally just about everything you could ever want to know about pool is explained there well and accurately and often with diagrams and video too. It is without doubt the most comprehensive accurate source of pool information anywhere and by quite a large margin:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/

Also half the pool information and "tips" you will receive from random people whether in person or on here is going to be at least partially incorrect, even some of it coming from good players, industry insiders or manufacturers, and even a bit from pros and pool instructors on occasion too. The amount of misinformation that is believed and passed on by people in pool is shocking so keep that in mind and take most things with a grain of salt until you can confirm them with a reliable source such as Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, or Mike Page to name several. Of course the worse the player the worse the misinformation will tend to be but it might be best to take it all with a grain of salt until you can confirm it.

The most important thing you could do right now is to concentrate on having good form and a good stroke which includes a solid stance and bridge, making sure your stroke is relaxed and smooth with good follow through, that you are staying down on the shot, etc. See Dr. Dave's site for more detail.

When it comes to position play the first thing you need to learn is the concept of the tangent line and how it works. See Dr. Dave's site for any questions you might have. But that knowledge is then of little use if you are not proficient with stop shops. This is by far the most important shot in pool because again it is like a foundation for much that follows. Start practicing being able to do perfect stop shots at all speeds for all distances.

Especially as a beginner it may help to start thinking in terms of left and right english as being for rails, and top and bottom english being for everything inside the rails. For typical play with a level cue left/right english have essentially no effect on the path of the cue ball either while it is rolling or after it hits an object ball. It does however have a substantial effect when the cue ball hits a rail.

Top and bottom english are for "bending" the path of the cue ball after it has contacted an object ball or rail and is moving in open space. While they can have some minor effect on the actual initial rebound angle from the rail it is negligible in comparison to left/right english. So a simple way of thinking about it at least right now is that left and right english is for rails and top and bottom english is for open space/the bed of the table.

When an object ball is frozen or near frozen to a rail you can use left/right english to effect the angle the cue ball rebounds from the rail, or top and bottom to effect its path after it leaves the rail (which happens near immediately on many shots), or a combination of both. What combinations to use will only come with experience. In general the steeper the cut angle (the more perpendicular the cue ball is going into the rail) the more effect left/right english will have and the more you will depend on that. The straighter the shot the more you can effect the cue ball's path with top/bottom english as well.

One thing to keep in mind for object balls frozen or nearly frozen to the rail that some player's don't realize and that I rarely see discussed is that for the exact same hit on the cue ball you will can get a different cue ball reaction and path based on whether you hit the object ball a fraction of a second first, or the rail a fraction of a second first. You will get the most cue ball action (especially from the left/right english) when you hit the object ball a fraction of a second first or at the same time as the cushion. When you hit the cushion a fraction of a second first the cue ball tends to more closely follow the tangent line on the shot and much of the cue ball action you had planned is often lost.

Wow thats some great info. Its all very logical and makes sense, I just didnt think about the whole categorization of top/bottom is more for open and left/right is more for rail even though that is what I have been subconsciously doing LOL, its a natural concept to me so I am glad you are able to confirm it so I am not doing something "weird."

Honestly I ONLY use left/right when I have to create a bigger/smaller angle off a rail to just make contact with the next object ball after I get stymied by defense or just bad luck. Otherwise its just bottom or top as needed. And to me part of the fun of playing pool is hitting the right shot, not to just hit the back of the ball, make a ball, and then have no shot for being so one dimensional. If I had to just shoot straight into the target ball and keep doing that only, I probably wont even play anymore.

I actually have been on that site, LOL for the last 2 months, and still going... yes there is a plethora of info there and I am going through them one by one and LOVE that they are sticking with science and not opinions, really resonates much better with me.

I'll be having more questions as I play more in this league, so hopefully you can add more as I come up with them. Meanwhile I am always focusing on getting into a comfortable and correct stance and getting my stroke straight, but hard these days because of a bad shoulder, really need to get this checked out... you'd think you can't get any injury to hurt your billiards game, SMH, story of my life in every sport I have played.

 

[JMASTERJ]

Might be some confusion happening in the responses... in the first sentence do you want to "stick" the object ball to the rail or the cue ball?

I mean sticking the object ball to the rail so it rolls down towards the hole without much deviation away from it to maximize pocketing it. Cue ball control is a whole another discussion.

 

[JB Cases]

What happens when you need draw?

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[jay helfert]

I think the OP was talking about a force follow shot, which is in the repertoire of any good player. This is usually used when you have a long cut shot on the object ball which is close to the corner pocket, and you want to leave the cue ball right there on the same end rail for the next shot. You don't want to slow roll the cue ball and maybe miss the ball or have the cue ball roll too far off the end rail, so you stroke it firmly with high English, making the object ball, with the cue ball bouncing off the end rail at first and then returning to the same rail and stopping.

Eddie Kelly was a master of the kill shot from distance, which could achieve the same result. He would hit the cue ball hard with a firm draw stroke and the cue ball would skid down the table and almost stop before turning over and rolling slowly into the object ball. Efren also shoots this shot extremely well.

 

[louieatienza]

What happens when you need draw?

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The OB sticks to the rail pretty well when you hit the CB with low inside.

 

[JB Cases]

The OB sticks to the rail pretty well when you hit the CB with low inside.

I find it "sticks" to the rail when it is hit in the right spot regardless of what spin is used. In other words when you want to use any combination of spin and speed there is a right spot which works for that combination and when that spot is contacted the object ball goes down the rail perfectly while the cue ball reacts as expected for the spin/speed used.

This discussion reminds me of the old advice to always shoot balls close to the rail with low outside so that the object ball would get "get in" English to make it spin into the pocket.

To me that type of thinking is what causes players to not learn how to make balls when they need something other than low outside. It is what causes them to have a lot of anxiety when they need to do anything other that the conventional wisdom cinch approach.

When I learned how to use backhand English I saw an immediate jump in my game in terms of where I could send the cue ball. Suddenly there was literally no difference between low left and high right or low outside and high inside when looking at shots on or near the rail.

Yes deflection plays a part but using BHE it became much less of a factor and easier to deal with. It also became easier to see the amount of deflection produced in different cues because of having a center ball baseline which is adjusted off of from the back hand.

I was a product of the poolroom mythology on how to play. Only as people started mythbusting and sharing the information did it become clear how handicapped I was through the homespun poolroom "advice".

I like Tor but this video to me is propagating this type of stuff.

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[JB Cases]

I think the OP was talking about a force follow shot, which is in the repertoire of any good player. This is usually used when you have a long cut shot on the object ball which is close to the corner pocket, and you want to leave the cue ball right there on the same end rail for the next shot. You don't want to slow roll the cue ball and maybe miss the ball or have the cue ball roll too far off the end rail, so you stroke it firmly with high English, making the object ball, with the cue ball bouncing off the end rail at first and then returning to the same rail and stopping.

Eddie Kelly was a master of the kill shot from distance, which could achieve the same result. He would hit the cue ball hard with a firm draw stroke and the cue ball would skid down the table and almost stop before turning over and rolling slowly into the object ball. Efren also shoots this shot extremely well.

That's not the shot he meant.

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[louieatienza]

I find it "sticks" to the rail when it is hit in the right spot regardless of what spin is used. In other words when you want to use any combination of spin and speed there is a right spot which works for that combination and when that spot is contacted the object ball goes down the rail perfectly while the cue ball reacts as expected for the spin/speed used.

This discussion reminds me of the old advice to always shoot balls close to the rail with low outside so that the object ball would get "get in" English to make it spin into the pocket.

To me that type of thinking is what causes players to not learn how to make balls when they need something other than low outside. It is what causes them to have a lot of anxiety when they need to do anything other that the conventional wisdom cinch approach.

When I learned how to use backhand English I saw an immediate jump in my game in terms of where I could send the cue ball. Suddenly there was literally no difference between low left and high right or low outside and high inside when looking at shots on or near the rail.

Yes deflection plays a part but using BHE it became much less of a factor and easier to deal with. It also became easier to see the amount of deflection produced in different cues because of having a center ball baseline which is adjusted off of from the back hand.

I was a product of the poolroom mythology on how to play. Only as people started mythbusting and sharing the information did it become clear how handicapped I was through the homespun poolroom "advice".

I like Tor but this video to me is propagating this type of stuff.

Sure, we should be able to hit that OB with whatever we want to go wherever we want to go. I bet SVB, Efren, Shaw, Dennis, Earl and others do that. I don't think Tor's video is aimed at that crowd.

 

[JB Cases]

Sure, we should be able to hit that OB with whatever we want to go wherever we want to go. I bet SVB, Efren, Shaw, Dennis, Earl and others do that. I don't think Tor's video is aimed at that crowd.

Well if so then I think the crowd it's aimed at is then is being misled with this advice if they are not told that this is a method that works when it's safe to use it because there is no need to get shape in a place that top center doesn't provide.

Don't get me wrong, I like tips and tricks and so-called secrets that help to play. I just think that in light of all the available information it is proper to mention that these tips aren't the only way to make the ball.


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[louieatienza]

Well if so then I think the crowd it's aimed at is then is being misled with this advice if they are not told that this is a method that works when it's safe to use it because there is no need to get shape in a place that top center doesn't provide.

Don't get me wrong, I like tips and tricks and so-called secrets that help to play. I just think that in light of all the available information it is proper to mention that these tips aren't the only way to make the ball.


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Agreed. Though I'm not opposed to the advise per se. Sometimes for beginners (and may be some better ones) the benefit of clinching it in, leaving a long cut, outweighs putting English on it, making the shot more difficult. But yes there's more than one way to skin the cat...

 

[Skippy27]

Agreed. Though I'm not opposed to the advise per se. Sometimes for beginners (and may be some better ones) the benefit of clinching it in, leaving a long cut, outweighs putting English on it, making the shot more difficult. But yes there's more than one way to skin the cat...

There are many tips and tricks that people can pick up on out of many different systems. The ones that work well for them or come naturally they will stick with and develop well. The ones they have a hard time with they will probably never master anyway so they should continue their search to find something that comes more natural to them.

 

[Scott Lee]

There are many tips and tricks that people can pick up on out of many different systems. The ones that work well for them or come naturally they will stick with and develop well. The ones they have a hard time with they will probably never master anyway so they should continue their search to find something that comes more natural to them.

This is a great answer.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

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[Prince H]

Prince H...Still skeptical (after viewing Mike Page's video explanation)? Any competent instructor knows this physics factor, and can demonstrate it immediately.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The video was helpful. Thanks Mike.

 

[jay helfert]

That's not the shot he meant.

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Hey, I'm new around here so give me a break!
P.S. Can you teach me how to play Bank Pool with only nine balls? I see them doing it on live stream sometimes and I don't really understand the game. I think you need to make five balls to win, right? How much do you charge for lessons?