USPPA Reno players, did they get paid?

Would you please explain what experiences you had to base all of your opinions?

Have you ever promoted any pool event?

I am curious where you got your opinions and your qualifications to criticize other promoter's practices.

Some of what you say makes sense, while other things you mention lead me to think you are a lot less involved with pool than you would like us to believe.

Please explain.


justnum said:
Until the prizes are cashed out there is no other time available to the public or players to know if the prize money is ready and available. Until the prizes are cashed the added money is just an advertising gimmick.

The specifics of what promoters do with the door fee I am unqualified to speak on. But the risks of having a promoter handle door fee finances in a gambling area is they can try to double the money at the roulette table.

In short the players have always had to wait out payment. I think if the tournament play is used as a bargaining chip to interest promoters to pay on time then fewer conflicts could happen.

I hate to say it is just money and that shouldn't be the main concern, but to promoters they treat the player prize money like a quick loan for a bad habit.
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Tom In Cincy said:
Would you please explain what experiences you had to base all of your opinions?

Have you ever promoted any pool event?

I am curious where you got your opinions and your qualifications to criticize other promoter's practices.

Some of what you say makes sense, while other things you mention lead me to think you are a lot less involved with pool than you would like us to believe.

Please explain.
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I form my ideas from attending professional pool events, speaking with players and room owners.

Promoters are like players anyone can talk about their game or how they play, its just talk. Specifically at a recent event one promoter broadcasted what I thought was a private message to the promoter about why a player is not playing in the event. That seemed like a play to out players that aren't going to follow by the rules of the promoter.

The players are so gracious it wouldn't be unreasonable they have some rules of their own for promoters. Are you for players getting paid on time or not?

I have promoted other industry events non-related to pool, mostly corporate. I was working for someone else's company at the time.
 
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Craig Fales said:
I see under your name is WorldPPA, what organization is that?
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An organization just for pool players, the WorldPPA is primarily focus is on promoting pool to beginners and intermediate level pool players using a home-grown handicapping system based on matches played and money won; and, providing low cost weekly tournaments and larger regional tournaments at least twice per year.

In just 15 short months, 443 new members have joined the WorldPPA, played in more than 200 tournaments, 6,710 matches and have received $40,644.00 in winnings. Not too shabby for $11 entry fees.

Weekly Tournament entry fees are $11 of which $10 goes back to the winners that evening (1st=50%, 2nd=30%, 3rd & 4th=10%); the extra dollars is used to pay for free entries into larger regional events, or $100 added money weekly tournaments.
WorldPPA weekly tournament locations:

Mondays Fast Eddys, Capitola, California 831-462-1882 7pm
Tuesday South First Street Billiards, San Jose, California 408-294-7800 7pm
Thursdays Cuetopia Billiard Cafe, San Jose, California 408-266-7625 7pm
Saturdays California Billiard Club, Mountain View, California 650-965-3100 7pm

For more information about the WorldPPA: www.worldppa.com or bob@worldppa.com
 
justnum said:
Is there a policy you would have wanted enforced before the tournament so this never happens?

After the fact anger is not enjoyable for anyone. And waiting after the event is even worse because payment was surrendered. It would be great if there was a policy to shift the waiting to the promoter so that the prizes are ready ahead of time. Before the event begins the promoter would have to have the prizes available otherwise all players backout of the "rodeo show."

I don't know if that is practical or people can do that, it just seems like an idea that would have prevented this situation.
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There definitely needs to be something put into effect to prevent these kinds of things from happening. This isn't good for anyone; the players, promoters and casinos all lose when winnings aren't paid. I'm quite sure Tony didn't do the Reno event knowing this would happen. This has got to be a nightmare for him to deal with and I'm quite confident, if he had the funds he would pay. He obviously came up short for some reason and he's scrambling to do something about it. I think Tony has created a bigger monster by not coming out and explaining what happened. Shit happens and sometimes we just have to deal with it...

Looking back on this and trying to learn from it, it seems that added money for bigger events should be locked in place somewhere for individuals that don't have personal funds to cover the event or are new and haven't established themselves yet.
 
If I was to promote a large event (something I hope to do before I die) I would have the added money in a escrow account of some kind. Open a new bank account that needed 3 signatures to access the money. People for example on that account would be Jay Helford, Mark griffin and myself. That way nobody can show the $$ in a account one day and then the next go and withdraw it as I think happend with Chuck Bobbit in Phoenix. I think that should be good enough security for the players. Of course until the actual event starts you would not know how many entry fees there were and what the payouts will be unless all entrys are paid in advance and the field is full.
I would not hold a tourney unless I had every cent of the money (other than entry fees) in hand so the only person who could be out money would be me. I just don't see another way to do it.
 
Of course if you have no desire to continue promoting the sport and don't care who you screw then it would be easy to make a big payday and split.
 
Just as I thought, you have a very limited experience about what it takes to run a pool event in a casino.

You opinions are noted.


justnum said:
I form my ideas from attending professional pool events, speaking with players and room owners.

what professional events please?
what area of the country are you getting this info (east coast, Midwest, south? where?

Promoters are like players anyone can talk about their game or how they play, its just talk. Specifically at a recent event one promoter broadcasted what I thought was a private message to the promoter about why a player is not playing in the event. That seemed like a play to out players that aren't going to follow by the rules of the promoter.

A promoter has that privilege, correct? making a policy known for all to make a choice, either follow the policy or not play. easy decision for most players.

The players are so gracious it wouldn't be unreasonable they have some rules of their own for promoters.

they can have all the rules they want. It is up to them to follow them, not the promoter. When was the last time you saw players promoting their own event?

Are you for players getting paid on time or not?
Of course I am... what a ridiculous question.


I have promoted other industry events non-related to pool, mostly corporate. I was working for someone else's company at the time.
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bfdlad said:
If I was to promote a large event (something I hope to do before I die) I would have the added money in a escrow account of some kind. Open a new bank account that needed 3 signatures to access the money. People for example on that account would be Jay Helford, Mark griffin and myself. That way nobody can show the $$ in a account one day and then the next go and withdraw it as I think happend with Chuck Bobbit in Phoenix. I think that should be good enough security for the players. Of course until the actual event starts you would not know how many entry fees there were and what the payouts will be unless all entrys are paid in advance and the field is full.
I would not hold a tourney unless I had every cent of the money (other than entry fees) in hand so the only person who could be out money would be me. I just don't see another way to do it.
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A "Performance Bond" requirement would insure "new" and "financially weak" promoters follow through with their promises. Existing promoters that have paid as promised are exempt.

Performance Bond:
a bond given to protect the recipient against loss in case the terms of a contract are not filled;
 
At the very least, a promoter would do this to 'promote them self' for the immediate event and future events.

Also this would protect the players.

Entry fees would be part of this "Performance Bond"

Checks that would be honored at the Casinos should also be part of a "Performance Bond"



levartze said:
A "Performance Bond" requirement would insure "new" and "financially weak" promoters follow through with their promises. Existing promoters that have paid as promised are exempt.

Performance Bond:
a bond given to protect the recipient against loss in case the terms of a contract are not filled;
Click to expand...
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Just as I thought, you have a very limited experience about what it takes to run a pool event in a casino.

You opinions are noted.
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I wasn't interested in the grunt work of advertising a pool event. My primary concern relating to this thread is how to ensure players are paid on time. The OP focused on if the players were paid or not. I laid out a scenario if they weren't paid and what they should do if they have to repeat business with the same person.


Aside from the ideas you have shared about how some promoters are just better than others did you have something the players can put into action. Your idea seems as small-minded as putting all trust into the promoter.

If you are interested in discussing ideas to help the players get paid on time or get payment for the Reno event, I am for that. I am not interested in discussing personal backgrounds some people have "gag orders on their work history."

It is clear what you are here to discuss and it isn't helping the players get their Reno payment.
 
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And what have you done to help the players get their payment?

Most of what this thread has been about the Non-payment of the tournament prizes and bashing Tony Annigoni.

Your contribution has been how to prevent this from happening.

Your suggestions/opinions have been noted.

justnum said:
It is clear what you are here to discuss and it isn't helping the players get their Reno payment.
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Tom In Cincy said:
And what have you done to help the players get their payment?

Most of what this thread has been about the Non-payment of the tournament prizes and bashing Tony Annigoni.

Your contribution has been how to prevent this from happening.

Your suggestions/opinions have been noted.
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First the players are need an explanation aside from the theoretical ones I proposed I can't do more than wait for the promoter to make an announcement.


The bashing of Tony is bad, I agree.

I hate to recap past payments that have been delayed but experiences like this help players evaluate the future of their involvement with the sport. I discussed how to prevent it from happening to keep them interested in the sport as career.

I am not going to suggest what people have to do to get payment. This is a honor thing where the promoter will honor his word at this point and deliver payments.

If the promoter can't do it on his own then it is a failure between players and promoters. The promoter said something will happen and until that happens everyone just has to wait.

What happens as we wait can range from role playing, to preventing future disasters, to identifying which promoters might do this to players, and how players can determine what to do to learn about how good a promoter is. I am not for bashing the Reno promoter as a person but the promoters decisions that resulted in a delayed payment are subject to scrutiny. Possible decisions such as not insuring the prize fund, not properly protecting the prize fund and ensuring the prize fund is prepared ahead of time.
 
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levartze said:
A "Performance Bond" requirement would insure "new" and "financially weak" promoters follow through with their promises. Existing promoters that have paid as promised are exempt.

Performance Bond:
a bond given to protect the recipient against loss in case the terms of a contract are not filled;
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Some events are just better as a trust between a man and his word. That is the feeling I get from pro pool players they are people of their word and expect the same from promoters and organizers.

The corporate stuff is for another batch of people. When insiders go crazy and commit selfish actions for their own glory and shareholders have to protect themselves from that. Even just typical service and product related work complex insurance schemes are more than most people can handle.
 
levartze said:
An organization just for pool players, the WorldPPA is primarily focus is on promoting pool to beginners and intermediate level pool players using a home-grown handicapping system based on matches played and money won; and, providing low cost weekly tournaments and larger regional tournaments at least twice per year.

In just 15 short months, 443 new members have joined the WorldPPA, played in more than 200 tournaments, 6,710 matches and have received $40,644.00 in winnings. Not too shabby for $11 entry fees.

Weekly Tournament entry fees are $11 of which $10 goes back to the winners that evening (1st=50%, 2nd=30%, 3rd & 4th=10%); the extra dollars is used to pay for free entries into larger regional events, or $100 added money weekly tournaments.
WorldPPA weekly tournament locations:

Mondays Fast Eddys, Capitola, California 831-462-1882 7pm
Tuesday South First Street Billiards, San Jose, California 408-294-7800 7pm
Thursdays Cuetopia Billiard Cafe, San Jose, California 408-266-7625 7pm
Saturdays California Billiard Club, Mountain View, California 650-965-3100 7pm

For more information about the WorldPPA: www.worldppa.com or bob@worldppa.com
Click to expand...

Sounds like a great organization, too bad I don't live out west anymore.
 
bfdlad said:
If I was to promote a large event (something I hope to do before I die) I would have the added money in a escrow account of some kind. Open a new bank account that needed 3 signatures to access the money. People for example on that account would be Jay Helford, Mark griffin and myself. That way nobody can show the $$ in a account one day and then the next go and withdraw it as I think happend with Chuck Bobbit in Phoenix. I think that should be good enough security for the players. Of course until the actual event starts you would not know how many entry fees there were and what the payouts will be unless all entrys are paid in advance and the field is full.
I would not hold a tourney unless I had every cent of the money (other than entry fees) in hand so the only person who could be out money would be me. I just don't see another way to do it.
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Mark,

In most events held by CSI / BCAPL the entries are closed a month or so before the beginning of each event. They know exactly how many players and what the eventual prize money will be. They can also determine what the "added" money might be, if any. They may also decide to cancel an event because of low entries. Prepayment is a blessing for them. My guess is APA, ACS and VNEA operate in a similar fashion. Knowing how much is in the "kitty" allows those groups to pay on time at the conclusion of each event.

Most medium sized tournament promoters have to deal with players who refuse to pre-pay. The prize fund becomes tainted with "X dollars with X entries". They never know how much money or how many players till the day of the event. In my limited experience, I've found playing in the Joss 9 Ball Tour is a great example of how to run an event efficiently. The added money is known regardless of the attendance. I've never heard of Mike not paying every qualified player in an event. With the Turning Stone events, Mike has nearly all the money up front because prepayment is a requirement. The best way to run a tournament in my opinion!

Lyn
 
Scott Lee said:
Celtic...How can you be so shortsighted? Do you honestly believe that ONE person can "fix" men's pool in America? Mark Griffin is an honest, intelligent, and motivated person...but he is only one person. The only thing that will 'fix' professional pool is when the professional players decide, AS A GROUP, that they want to work together towards a common goal. At that point, someone like Mark might lead a group of people towards that end. Until then, Mark has enough on his plate, running his own businessess, and promoting pool the best way he knows how...by putting his money where his mouth is...and having integrity.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I could not disagree with this more. The players are NOT the ones that will change pool, the promotion and management of the sport needs to change and the players will simply follow.
 
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Mark Griffin said:
I am not sure why you going down this road. The promoter MUST have the money available to pay the players. That is how it is done. This is not golf where you are dealing in millions in prize funds- this is probably under $20,000!!! I award close to $800,000 in this may. Paid in full- on the spot! To suggest otherwise is inappropriate.

This is the promoter's responsibility.

That is what Tony did not do. On top of that, he has not even tried to provide the 'truth'. And as stated before, all his crap now will cause legitimate events to have a harder time. Possibly to the level that fewer players will participate.

All of this was preventable.

Mark griffin
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So, Tony will send the players their checks at some point? Hmmm! Players beware. Two years ago one of Anigoni's tournament directors was partially paid by check and it bounced. It took the better part of a year for Tony to make it good. Just saying.
 
If we are EVER going to see this game get anywhere, then it is going to take EVERYONE working together.

The players, the promoters, the leagues, the media and the various other companies involved with the game (cue manufacturers, cloth makers, table makers, etc).

When everyone finally decides to put their petty differences aside and work towards making the game itself better, then we will have a chance.

Until then, we have NO hope at all of the game ever going anywhere.

We have tour directors bashing each other, tour directors screwing their title sponsors, players screwing each other for a dime, promoters declaring war against each other, league operators declaring war against each other, members of the media screwing the fans, promoters screwing the players, etc, etc, etc.

EVERYONE in this game is so caught up in making sure that they get the biggest share of the small pie that is pro pool, and NO ONE is interested in making that pie any larger.

Don't get me wrong, there are many members of the pool world that spout that memorized line about how they "Do it because they love the game" while they are lining up their next sucker.

And there are a few who bring out the "we work to make the game stronger so that everyone will benefit", but as soon as a decision has to be made that will affect their share of the pie, then it is back to a "me me me" attitude.

But then again, none of this is news. It is the same as it has been for years and years. And it is NOT changing.

Mike

Celtic said:
I could not disagree with this more. The players are NOT the ones that will change pool, the promotion and management of the sport needs to change and the players will simply follow.
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