Variance in deflection among shafts from same manufacturer?

Tin Man

Tin Man

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I use a 12.4 Revo. I didn't buy it for performance, but rather for durability. The thing is a juggernaut. No dings, no wearing down. At the end of World War III there will be nothing left but cockroaches and Revo shafts.

A year ago I had the chance to hit with a student's Cuetec Cynergy. I remember really liking it. It had almost identical deflection to my Revo but had the feel of a wood shaft. I didn't switch or anything, but just remember liking it.

Yesterday I had a different student with a Cuetec Cynergy. I was astounded at how much it deflected. It was like a traditional maple shaft! Now look, I like a little deflection. I actually had a 314-2 wood shaft one time that had so little deflection I never really liked it. I actually like the feel of the ball shoving a little bit when I use spin and speed. But man, this shaft yesterday deflected so much I never would've believed it was LD.

I hate talking equipment. I've played for 30 years and switched equipment exactly twice, once 20 years ago when I went LD, and once 5 years ago when I went Carbon Fiber. I think it's all a waste of focus and people should just pick something that works and learn to play the game. But I have a ton of students ask me about these things and yesterday the guy asked if I liked the hit of his cue and I was just really shocked. Couple of questions:

Is it true that there might be a huge difference in deflection from shaft to shaft even among the same brand? Or am I imagining things? Or is it possible the butt of the cue is making a difference (I always believed it was just the first 10" of the shaft that mattered)?

The guy is asking if he should buy a different cue and I'm not sure if I should tell him to try a different Cynergy shaft, try a different kind of shaft altogether, or just roll with what he has. I just think his cue had so much deflection it didn't seem optimal. Thoughts?
 
Tin Man said:
I use a 12.4 Revo. I didn't buy it for performance, but rather for durability. The thing is a juggernaut. No dings, no wearing down. At the end of World War III there will be nothing left but cockroaches and Revo shafts.

A year ago I had the chance to hit with a student's Cuetec Cynergy. I remember really liking it. It had almost identical deflection to my Revo but had the feel of a wood shaft. I didn't switch or anything, but just remember liking it.

Yesterday I had a different student with a Cuetec Cynergy. I was astounded at how much it deflected. It was like a traditional maple shaft! Now look, I like a little deflection. I actually had a 314-2 wood shaft one time that had so little deflection I never really liked it. I actually like the feel of the ball shoving a little bit when I use spin and speed. But man, this shaft yesterday deflected so much I never would've believed it was LD.

I hate talking equipment. I've played for 30 years and switched equipment exactly twice, once 20 years ago when I went LD, and once 5 years ago when I went Carbon Fiber. I think it's all a waste of focus and people should just pick something that works and learn to play the game. But I have a ton of students ask me about these things and yesterday the guy asked if I liked the hit of his cue and I was just really shocked. Couple of questions:

Is it true that there might be a huge difference in deflection from shaft to shaft even among the same brand? Or am I imagining things? Or is it possible the butt of the cue is making a difference (I always believed it was just the first 10" of the shaft that mattered)?

The guy is asking if he should buy a different cue and I'm not sure if I should tell him to try a different Cynergy shaft, try a different kind of shaft altogether, or just roll with what he has. I just think his cue had so much deflection it didn't seem optimal. Thoughts?
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Is this just from playing or did you test it? Shoot from about center table at the middle diamond on the end rail. Use a tip or so of spin and fairly hard speed. How much does each shaft squirt? All the Cynergy's i've hit(about 4) were around the width of a chalk cube. That's pretty lo-defl.
 
Did you try the Cynergy 11.8 or 12.5 previously? What about this most recent time? Did you do a thorough testing or was it just your gut feeling about how much deflection was involved?

I don't doubt there are variations in manufacturing, but I'm guessing both Predator and Cuetec have some pretty strict tolerances involved and so I would be surprised if there's much variation in their respective lines in the overall scheme of things. Doesn't guarantee that one dud (or superstar, even) can't make it through, but it's more likely that your memory of your evaluation of how a shaft performed from a year ago and your evaluation of how a different shaft performed recently might be the bigger contributor to your perceived differences.
 
Rocket354 said:
Did you try the Cynergy 11.8 or 12.5 previously? What about this most recent time? Did you do a thorough testing or was it just your gut feeling about how much deflection was involved?

I don't doubt there are variations in manufacturing, but I'm guessing both Predator and Cuetec have some pretty strict tolerances involved and so I would be surprised if there's much variation in their respective lines in the overall scheme of things. Doesn't guarantee that one dud (or superstar, even) can't make it through, but it's more likely that your memory of your evaluation of how a shaft performed from a year ago and your evaluation of how a different shaft performed recently might be the bigger contributor to your perceived differences.
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i hit the 11.8 & 12.5 back-to-back. not a lot of difference. the 12.9 Revo deflected a lil more than the 12.5Cyn but again not by much. To put this in perspective i did the same test with my classic Jensen 'bushka with 12.8mm ivory ferrules. Deflection compared to the CF shafts was HUGE, close to half-a-diamond on firm hits. All that mass/weight up front really makes the cb go sideways.
 
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I've been playing Predator since 1998 or so. The whole range. I could play with any of them, the deflection was so similar. I occasionally try other "LD" brand cues, they all seemed higher than Predator to me. Consistency from sample to sample in other brands I can't say. But within Predator, it's been spot on for me, for 25 some years.
 
It's good to have a standard test for squirt but most good players can tell pretty quickly with a few side spin shots about what they are dealing with.

It's possible to increase squirt by adding something heavy up front like a metal spacer under the tip. Was the cue stock?
 
Tin Man said:
I use a 12.4 Revo. I didn't buy it for performance, but rather for durability. The thing is a juggernaut. No dings, no wearing down. At the end of World War III there will be nothing left but cockroaches and Revo shafts.

A year ago I had the chance to hit with a student's Cuetec Cynergy. I remember really liking it. It had almost identical deflection to my Revo but had the feel of a wood shaft. I didn't switch or anything, but just remember liking it.

Yesterday I had a different student with a Cuetec Cynergy. I was astounded at how much it deflected. It was like a traditional maple shaft! Now look, I like a little deflection. I actually had a 314-2 wood shaft one time that had so little deflection I never really liked it. I actually like the feel of the ball shoving a little bit when I use spin and speed. But man, this shaft yesterday deflected so much I never would've believed it was LD.

I hate talking equipment. I've played for 30 years and switched equipment exactly twice, once 20 years ago when I went LD, and once 5 years ago when I went Carbon Fiber. I think it's all a waste of focus and people should just pick something that works and learn to play the game. But I have a ton of students ask me about these things and yesterday the guy asked if I liked the hit of his cue and I was just really shocked. Couple of questions:

Is it true that there might be a huge difference in deflection from shaft to shaft even among the same brand? Or am I imagining things? Or is it possible the butt of the cue is making a difference (I always believed it was just the first 10" of the shaft that mattered)?

The guy is asking if he should buy a different cue and I'm not sure if I should tell him to try a different Cynergy shaft, try a different kind of shaft altogether, or just roll with what he has. I just think his cue had so much deflection it didn't seem optimal. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I have two Cynergy shafts, and I think their deflection characteristics are identical. That doesn’t mean you are wrong or crazy or whatever, I just think my experience is different and maybe fortunate. However, I do think in the carbon fiber community of users, the Cynergy shafts are widely viewed as having more deflection than Revo…which I think I prefer but others may not.

Kollegedave
 
i have not done a comparison but revo for example can be off 0.1-0.2 mm in tip size from shaft to shaft
that has to affect deflection
jmho
icbw
 
Thanks for the replies gang!

OK, so I certainly didn't do anything scientifically. When I hit with someone's cue I just hit a handful of shots (low outside stun shots, high inside three railers, bicycle draws, etc) with pretty heavy spin and good strokes and see how it compares to mine. Some cues deflect more than mine, others less, but I can generally get a feel for the hit pretty quick. So yes, last year I remember thinking it hit almost the same as mine, this year I was blown away by how much it deflected. Quite possibly poor testing or poor memory.

But I do know that the cue I hit with yesterday deflected significantly. I think it was the 11.8 taper because it was thinner than my cue which is 12.4. He's training today as well, I'll try it again and see if I'm crazy. But I don't think so. I'm not a pool scientist but I know what high deflection feel like.

I think when it comes to him asking me advice I'm going to step back. I'm better off staying totally out of any equipment conversations. I'll send him a link to this thread and he can read through and do his own experiments and make his own decisions. I think I've already spent my annual budget of attention on equipment, time to go back to putting balls in the hole. Thank you!
 
Tin Man said:
I use a 12.4 Revo. I didn't buy it for performance, but rather for durability. The thing is a juggernaut. No dings, no wearing down. At the end of World War III there will be nothing left but cockroaches and Revo shafts.

A year ago I had the chance to hit with a student's Cuetec Cynergy. I remember really liking it. It had almost identical deflection to my Revo but had the feel of a wood shaft. I didn't switch or anything, but just remember liking it.

Yesterday I had a different student with a Cuetec Cynergy. I was astounded at how much it deflected. It was like a traditional maple shaft! Now look, I like a little deflection. I actually had a 314-2 wood shaft one time that had so little deflection I never really liked it. I actually like the feel of the ball shoving a little bit when I use spin and speed. But man, this shaft yesterday deflected so much I never would've believed it was LD.

I hate talking equipment. I've played for 30 years and switched equipment exactly twice, once 20 years ago when I went LD, and once 5 years ago when I went Carbon Fiber. I think it's all a waste of focus and people should just pick something that works and learn to play the game. But I have a ton of students ask me about these things and yesterday the guy asked if I liked the hit of his cue and I was just really shocked. Couple of questions:

Is it true that there might be a huge difference in deflection from shaft to shaft even among the same brand? Or am I imagining things? Or is it possible the butt of the cue is making a difference (I always believed it was just the first 10" of the shaft that mattered)?

The guy is asking if he should buy a different cue and I'm not sure if I should tell him to try a different Cynergy shaft, try a different kind of shaft altogether, or just roll with what he has. I just think his cue had so much deflection it didn't seem optimal. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Varying table conditions can yield a false sense of how much or how little cueball deflection a shaft has.

A changed ferrule can drastically change the amount of cueball deflection.

Adding a fiber pad can increase cueball deflection. I had a low squirt shaft that I added two fiber pads to get it to where I liked it.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks for the replies gang!

OK, so I certainly didn't do anything scientifically. When I hit with someone's cue I just hit a handful of shots (low outside stun shots, high inside three railers, bicycle draws, etc) with pretty heavy spin and good strokes and see how it compares to mine. Some cues deflect more than mine, others less, but I can generally get a feel for the hit pretty quick. So yes, last year I remember thinking it hit almost the same as mine, this year I was blown away by how much it deflected. Quite possibly poor testing or poor memory.

But I do know that the cue I hit with yesterday deflected significantly. I think it was the 11.8 taper because it was thinner than my cue which is 12.4. He's training today as well, I'll try it again and see if I'm crazy. But I don't think so. I'm not a pool scientist but I know what high deflection feel like.

I think when it comes to him asking me advice I'm going to step back. I'm better off staying totally out of any equipment conversations. I'll send him a link to this thread and he can read through and do his own experiments and make his own decisions. I think I've already spent my annual budget of attention on equipment, time to go back to putting balls in the hole. Thank you!
Click to expand...
As mentioned by others, the Revo is generally considered the lowest-deflection CF shaft, and Cynergy, while still LD, has more. That has been my experience, as well. I used to play with a 12.5 Cynergy but switched to an 11.8 and could notice a reduction in deflection. So I agree with your assessment that people who play regularly can generally get a good feel for these things. That said, I've made mistakes before (shot with a cue for a bit and gotten one impression then shot with it again a week or so later and realized I'd made a mistake in analysis of some kind.)

Ultimately, while it's possible he has a dud (or even a fake/clone), without actually being there to try the shaft it's impossible to get feedback from an online forum. And if it is a dud (say the foam got filled in too deep) then I'm guessing Cuetec would honor the warranty, although it's another can of worms how one would even make that determination.

Your student may simply want to try another Cynergy shaft and see if there is a difference. And try CF shafts from other manufacturers if he has that access. And simply choose what works best for him.
 
Being a hands on mechanical guy I have to believe tip shape and hardness can effect deflection.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks for the replies gang!

OK, so I certainly didn't do anything scientifically. When I hit with someone's cue I just hit a handful of shots (low outside stun shots, high inside three railers, bicycle draws, etc) with pretty heavy spin and good strokes and see how it compares to mine. Some cues deflect more than mine, others less, but I can generally get a feel for the hit pretty quick. So yes, last year I remember thinking it hit almost the same as mine, this year I was blown away by how much it deflected. Quite possibly poor testing or poor memory.

But I do know that the cue I hit with yesterday deflected significantly. I think it was the 11.8 taper because it was thinner than my cue which is 12.4. He's training today as well, I'll try it again and see if I'm crazy. But I don't think so. I'm not a pool scientist but I know what high deflection feel like.

I think when it comes to him asking me advice I'm going to step back. I'm better off staying totally out of any equipment conversations. I'll send him a link to this thread and he can read through and do his own experiments and make his own decisions. I think I've already spent my annual budget of attention on equipment, time to go back to putting balls in the hole. Thank you!
Click to expand...
Mine is the 12.5. There has to be a difference between the 11.8 and 12.5, but I don’t know what it is.
 
I'm not a CF user but have hit everything I can get my hands on. I can't explain why my experience differs from others in this thread, but the only CF I've hit that has, what I deem acceptable deflection, is the 10.8mm Cynergy. Everything else pushes the ball around substantially more and the worst of the bunch are the Revo offerings.

Take my observations with a grain of salt.
 
Tin Man said:
I use a 12.4 Revo. I didn't buy it for performance, but rather for durability. The thing is a juggernaut. No dings, no wearing down. At the end of World War III there will be nothing left but cockroaches and Revo shafts.

A year ago I had the chance to hit with a student's Cuetec Cynergy. I remember really liking it. It had almost identical deflection to my Revo but had the feel of a wood shaft. I didn't switch or anything, but just remember liking it.

Yesterday I had a different student with a Cuetec Cynergy. I was astounded at how much it deflected. It was like a traditional maple shaft! Now look, I like a little deflection. I actually had a 314-2 wood shaft one time that had so little deflection I never really liked it. I actually like the feel of the ball shoving a little bit when I use spin and speed. But man, this shaft yesterday deflected so much I never would've believed it was LD.

I hate talking equipment. I've played for 30 years and switched equipment exactly twice, once 20 years ago when I went LD, and once 5 years ago when I went Carbon Fiber. I think it's all a waste of focus and people should just pick something that works and learn to play the game. But I have a ton of students ask me about these things and yesterday the guy asked if I liked the hit of his cue and I was just really shocked. Couple of questions:

Is it true that there might be a huge difference in deflection from shaft to shaft even among the same brand? Or am I imagining things? Or is it possible the butt of the cue is making a difference (I always believed it was just the first 10" of the shaft that mattered)?

The guy is asking if he should buy a different cue and I'm not sure if I should tell him to try a different Cynergy shaft, try a different kind of shaft altogether, or just roll with what he has. I just think his cue had so much deflection it didn't seem optimal. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
That’s one thing that’s great about CF, durability. It sucks when you get a great shaft and after a few years it’s wore down(I don’t use abrasives ever on mine) wood just wears down. Finding a replacement shaft can be a job.
 
Let me give you another, somewhat darker, scenario. With the very high cost and high profit margins on CF shafts, I wouldn’t be surprised to see counterfeits showing up on the used market. We still see this in the tennis world even after prices dropped to somewhat reasonable levels. You might want to ask your student where they purchased the shaft.
 
Tin Man said:
Thanks for the replies gang!

OK, so I certainly didn't do anything scientifically. When I hit with someone's cue I just hit a handful of shots (low outside stun shots, high inside three railers, bicycle draws, etc) with pretty heavy spin and good strokes and see how it compares to mine. Some cues deflect more than mine, others less, but I can generally get a feel for the hit pretty quick. So yes, last year I remember thinking it hit almost the same as mine, this year I was blown away by how much it deflected. Quite possibly poor testing or poor memory.

But I do know that the cue I hit with yesterday deflected significantly. I think it was the 11.8 taper because it was thinner than my cue which is 12.4. He's training today as well, I'll try it again and see if I'm crazy. But I don't think so. I'm not a pool scientist but I know what high deflection feel like.

I think when it comes to him asking me advice I'm going to step back. I'm better off staying totally out of any equipment conversations. I'll send him a link to this thread and he can read through and do his own experiments and make his own decisions. I think I've already spent my annual budget of attention on equipment, time to go back to putting balls in the hole. Thank you!
Click to expand...
Was your testing done with straight in shots???
 
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