Varner on Fats You will love this.

[maha]

I think it would be great to match em up with a Spot and go at it.
Races to 15, both of em get NOW at their age, get 7 on the wire.


NOW
What's your pick, Filler of Sigel?

half the race. i go for the old guys.
and if you are still playing id bet on you as well with that spot. and be stealing.
im holding my hand on my heart if you get the message for that game.

all in their absolute best prime the one that gets the best breaks with luck wins. assuming standard equipment at the time of the old guys prime.

 

[sammylane12]

totally wrong he played pro speed when younger. less as he got older same as any pool player.

Totally wrong, he never played pro speed, not ever. Maybe you have some third tier pro to compare him to but he could not match up even with the best and, as far as I know rarely if ever tried. He had no chance against Ronnie Allen, Wimpy, Jersey Red or any of those guys. Hell, Mosconi beat him playing one pocket, a game where experience is supposed to matter. Mosconi was not a one pocket player but had no problem beating Fats at his own game. Fats made good games for himself, that was his skill.

 

[sammylane12]

Since he played even with Hubert, possibly better in youth, I think Nicky speaking about these men skills, will have more credence.
It's easy to have an....Opinion..... we all have them.
But.....
When others speak about Rudolph, that were never around this person in the 60's - 70's, and who never met his wife of over 40 years who knew em better than anyone.
It just shows me more about those, who speak w/o true knowledge of this person.

Ask Earl what he think of Fat`s game

 

[JAM]

This is a really cool thread, a wonderful read if you're a pool enthusiast like me. I have a collection of Minnesota Fat stories that I've accumulated over the years for a pool-related project, but here's one of my favorites, a cut-and-paste of Keith McCready's experience with the Fat Man.

I think I was the last guy that he played for money before he passed.

I was in St. Louis competing in a pool tournament when I was about 19 or 20. Many of the best pool players of that era were in attendance, including Ronnie Allen who was good friends with the fat man. I was the up-and-coming star at this time, my game not even at its peak, and Fats, I believe out of curiosity, wanted to see how good I played. He had been hearing about this young kid from California, and Ronnie, with his usual gift of gab, got the game going.

I was one of the very few privileged individuals given this opportunity to gamble with Minnesota, as he liked to be called, and what a show it was, one of the best times I have ever had in my life and something that I will never forget.

I played him a nickel a game, 8 to 7, one-pocket, and then I spotted him 10 to 8 playing banks. He was a perfect gentleman, very funny, and the games were all pretty close. We were cutting up with each other, and if you think I'm funny, you should have seen him. He was the ultimate entertainer when he was at the table, a real crowd-pleaser, and this was a very unique show between a living legend and a kid. "How do you like me now, Junior?" he would bellow out after making a good shot. And then as he would approach his next shot, he would turn to the crowd and make gestures towards me.

I ate it up, laughing just as hard, if not harder, as everybody else. The whole joint was pulling for Fatty, which I don't blame them. If I wasn't playing, I would have been rooting for him too.

I ended up beating him out of 8 dimes, and he paid me off: $4,000 in five-hundred-dollar bills and the rest in C-notes. He autographed every single one of those five-hundred-dollar bills as he handed them to me. They were priceless, and I sure do wish I still had them.

I was on the road with a guy named Charlie the Ape then, and for whatever reason, Charlie went south with my winnings, stealing every single one of those signed five-hundred-dollar bills. But there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from me, and that is this wonderful memory, one I will always cherish, of playing Rudolph Wanderone a/k/a Minnesota Fats.

Years later, I was living in Nashville, and word came out that Fats was very ill and in the hospital. I went to see him and he knew who I was, and even though he didn't feel good, he still maintained his sense of humor. He was talking about old times, laughing and smirking. A week later, he passed.

While Fats is long gone, his larger-than-life stories live on, much like this pool thread. What separated Minnesota Fats from the rest was his ability to promote himself wherever he went and leave people with a smile on their faces. It's a different pool world today, I guess, and there will never be another pool entertainer like Fats.

 

[Mensabum]

I

you cant rate old people against young people in sports.

how do you think maybe the two greatest players in history varner and segal who both are alive and still hitting balls would do against filler and gorst or svb right now..

of course they would lose and if you watched as an idiot you would say they never would have had a chance when younger.

I just saw Nick in St. Louis earlier this week. He looked great. In good shape. We talked about that video about Fats and he said the same thing. 'Catch a gear.' Nick said he was heading to Houston for a seniors one hole tournament. I bet the entire field is hoping for car trouble. Lol.
Didn't he win that last year??

 

[bbb]

I

I just saw Nick in St. Louis earlier this week. He looked great. I'm good shape. Said he was heading to Houston for a seniors one hole tournament. I bet the entire field is hoping for car trouble. Lol.
Didn't he win that last year??

Varner Finally Snaps Off Senior One Pocket - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM

The Eighth Annual Senior One Pocket Championship was held this past weekend at Bogies in Houston, TX. Owner Cody Parish and his staff welcomed players and fans back to Bogies. Immediate Smiles, PoolActionTV.com & Bogies added $5,000 to this double elimination event. To qualify for this event,

www.azbilliards.com

 

[ibuycues]

totally wrong he played pro speed when younger. less as he got older same as any pool player.

I consider Nick Varner (a good friend) one of the absolute best players in the history of our sport.
And a very straight talker.

If Nick says he played great, and took off top pros on multiple occasions for jarring amounts,
that’s good enough for me. I’ve upped my view of Fats in his prime. Certainly more than shortstop!

As an aside, I saw Fats more than once in 1973-4 at Joe Burns’ place in Dayton in the back of the mall.
Forest Park Billiards. He didn’t play at all but he sure could cause action and hold your attention!

Will Prout

 

[Mensabum]

Varner Finally Snaps Off Senior One Pocket - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM

The Eighth Annual Senior One Pocket Championship was held this past weekend at Bogies in Houston, TX. Owner Cody Parish and his staff welcomed players and fans back to Bogies. Immediate Smiles, PoolActionTV.com & Bogies added $5,000 to this double elimination event. To qualify for this event,

www.azbilliards.com

Thanks!!

 

[Bob Jewett]

Even the NYTimes, which is usually pretty good for an obit, wasn't sure.
...

Evidently they did not have access to the US Census records of 1920 from New York City, or didn't bother to look.

From the Fox book we have
Living in Washington Heights (upper Manhattan)
Father: Rudolph Sr.,
Mother: Rosa
Sisters: Rosie, Julie, and Jerry

From the 1920 Census, we have in New York City the following entries for a family (screen shots below):
Living on 183rd St. (house number unclear) which is at the north end of Washington Heights
Head/Father: Wandderon, Rudolp, renter, male, white, age 37 married, immigrated 1907?, attended school? no, can read? yes, can write? yes, birthplace Switzerland, tongue Ger., ... speaks English? yes, occupation, superintendent, business Apt House

Family member: Rose, wife, age 38, year immigrated 1907, ...

Family member: Rose, daughter, age 15, immigrated 1907, ...

Family member: Julia, daughter, age 13, immigrated 1907, ...

Family member: Rudolph Jr., son, age 7, born in New York

Family member: Bertha, daughter, age 1 8/12, native born (illegible)

From this I conclude:
This family listed in the 1920 US Census was Fats' family,
There was some confusion by the census taker over how to spell both Rudolp and Wandderon. Note that Junior's name was clearly spelled Rudolph. The taker also thought that "Swiss" was a language, but corrected it to Ger.
Mom's real name might have been Rose or Rosa.
Fats was the first of the children to be born in the US after the family immigrated in 1907.
Rosie may have been named Rose.
Julia was called Julie.
Sister Jerry was actually named Bertha and was the baby of the family. Her mother Rosa was about 36 when she was born.

Here are the screen shots of the hand-written census:

 

[garczar]

Totally wrong, he never played pro speed, not ever. Maybe you have some third tier pro to compare him to but he could not match up even with the best and, as far as I know rarely if ever tried. He had no chance against Ronnie Allen, Wimpy, Jersey Red or any of those guys. Hell, Mosconi beat him playing one pocket, a game where experience is supposed to matter. Mosconi was not a one pocket player but had no problem beating Fats at his own game. Fats made good games for himself, that was his skill.

100%. There were a lot of guys who'd have swam thru a mile of shit to play Fats. He was a match-up artist and showman. Great for the game no doubt but never a great player.

 

[Mensabum]

Varner Finally Snaps Off Senior One Pocket - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM

The Eighth Annual Senior One Pocket Championship was held this past weekend at Bogies in Houston, TX. Owner Cody Parish and his staff welcomed players and fans back to Bogies. Immediate Smiles, PoolActionTV.com & Bogies added $5,000 to this double elimination event. To qualify for this event,

www.azbilliards.com

Thanks!!

 

[Mensabum]

100%. There were a lot of guys who'd have swam thru a mile of shit to play Fats. He was a match-up artist and showman. Great for the game no doubt but never a great player.

For the most part you may be correct. Keep in mind that anyone with that much knowledge of the game and time on the table is liable to hit Dead Stroke and beat anybody on that given day.
Even The Fat Man.
I had the honor of meeting him in Rockford IL back in '78 or '79 and he was doing exhibitions at the World's at his age then!! First class entertainer and Shark.
Great White.

 

[garczar]

For the most part you may be correct. Keep in mind that anyone with that much knowledge of the game and time on the table is liable to hit Dead Stroke and beat anybody on that given day.
Even The Fat Man.
I had the honor of meeting him in Rockford IL back in '78 or '79 and he was doing exhibitions at the World's at his age then!! First class entertainer and Shark.
Great White.

He was never capable of beating top players without a spot. Doing anything. That was his schtick, match-up artist.

 

[arnaldo]

I guess the second person from the bottom - listed as Rudolph Jr. Son, Age 7 is our Rudy W. -- Age 7. That would confirm a 1913 birthdate (Same year that my mother was born). Great genealogical /detective work, Bob !!! My mom.s father bought a brand new Tin Lizzie Ford that year for $500.
Arnaldo

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Mensabum]

He was never capable of beating top players without a spot. Doing anything. That was his schtick, match-up artist.

That was my opinion for most of my life, but after hearing all these guys saying the opposite threw me. Idk if it's speak not ill of the dead and they're inflating his ability, which I have no problem with, or they honestly thot he was better than he was. I'll never know.
I will give benefit of the doubt to the guys who actually played him and hold my judgement in check for now.
I never did care for all the bluster and verbal volleyball.
But like you said, that was his schtick and he played it for all it was worth. Love him or hate him, he left an indelible impression on the game.

 

[j2pac]

This is a really cool thread, a wonderful read if you're a pool enthusiast like me. I have a collection of Minnesota Fat stories that I've accumulated over the years for a pool-related project, but here's one of my favorites, a cut-and-paste of Keith McCready's experience with the Fat Man.

I think I was the last guy that he played for money before he passed.

I was in St. Louis competing in a pool tournament when I was about 19 or 20. Many of the best pool players of that era were in attendance, including Ronnie Allen who was good friends with the fat man. I was the up-and-coming star at this time, my game not even at its peak, and Fats, I believe out of curiosity, wanted to see how good I played. He had been hearing about this young kid from California, and Ronnie, with his usual gift of gab, got the game going.

I was one of the very few privileged individuals given this opportunity to gamble with Minnesota, as he liked to be called, and what a show it was, one of the best times I have ever had in my life and something that I will never forget.

I played him a nickel a game, 8 to 7, one-pocket, and then I spotted him 10 to 8 playing banks. He was a perfect gentleman, very funny, and the games were all pretty close. We were cutting up with each other, and if you think I'm funny, you should have seen him. He was the ultimate entertainer when he was at the table, a real crowd-pleaser, and this was a very unique show between a living legend and a kid. "How do you like me now, Junior?" he would bellow out after making a good shot. And then as he would approach his next shot, he would turn to the crowd and make gestures towards me.

I ate it up, laughing just as hard, if not harder, as everybody else. The whole joint was pulling for Fatty, which I don't blame them. If I wasn't playing, I would have been rooting for him too.

I ended up beating him out of 8 dimes, and he paid me off: $4,000 in five-hundred-dollar bills and the rest in C-notes. He autographed every single one of those five-hundred-dollar bills as he handed them to me. They were priceless, and I sure do wish I still had them.

I was on the road with a guy named Charlie the Ape then, and for whatever reason, Charlie went south with my winnings, stealing every single one of those signed five-hundred-dollar bills. But there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from me, and that is this wonderful memory, one I will always cherish, of playing Rudolph Wanderone a/k/a Minnesota Fats.

Years later, I was living in Nashville, and word came out that Fats was very ill and in the hospital. I went to see him and he knew who I was, and even though he didn't feel good, he still maintained his sense of humor. He was talking about old times, laughing and smirking. A week later, he passed.

While Fats is long gone, his larger-than-life stories live on, much like this pool thread. What separated Minnesota Fats from the rest was his ability to promote himself wherever he went and leave people with a smile on their faces. It's a different pool world today, I guess, and there will never be another pool entertainer like Fats.

Thank you for recounting that story. A very nice read, and I am sure one helluva memory for Keith.

 

[garczar]

That was my opinion for most of my life, but after hearing all these guys saying the opposite threw me. Idk if it's speak not ill of the dead and they're inflating his ability, which I have no problem with, or they honestly thot he was better than he was. I'll never know.
I will give benefit of the doubt to the guys who actually played him and hold my judgement in check for now.
I never did care for all the bluster and verbal volleyball.
But like you said, that was his schtick and he played it for all it was worth. Love him or hate him, he left an indelible impression on the game.

He may have caught a gear here-n-there but day in/day out he avoided 'good' players like the plague. He sized people up for a score not pride or some useless trophy. The top players of his era would have run over him playing even. I know a man who used to run the road with 1p HOF'r Squirrel Carpenter. He said that Fat's wouldn't play Marshall in any way. Marshall Carpenter was a beast who would have BBQ'd Fat's had they matched-up. Fat's was a great showman and good for pool tho, no doubt about that. Everyone knew his name, no one could name any of the top players other than Mosconi.

 

[maha]

just because a person doesnt play the top players doesnt mean he isnt among them. he was smart not dumb like most top players with a big ego to prove. he played to win the money. and winning the money isnt beating the best at the time and ruining your action.
and fats was 15 or more years older than squirrel. fats was 45 and on his downside when squirrel was 30. but when they were around each other fats was in his 50"s and squirrel was 40 and still in top playing shape.

and as said you cant compare an older players speed against a younger one.

and he did play many top players who stupidly gave him too big a spot and couldnt handle his skill sets.

 

[Mensabum]

He may have caught a gear here-n-there but day in/day out he avoided 'good' players like the plague. He sized people up for a score not pride or some useless trophy. The top players of his era would have run over him playing even. I know a man who used to run the road with 1p HOF'r Squirrel Carpenter. He said that Fat's wouldn't play Marshall in any way. Marshall Carpenter was a beast who would have BBQ'd Fat's had they matched-up. Fat's was a great showman and good for pool tho, no doubt about that. Everyone knew his name, no one could name any of the top players other than Mosconi.

Sigel did that to a certain extent. Not speaking ill of Mike in any way, just that he would pick tournaments based on the field and go from there. Many would consider that smart play.
I guess my opinion of Fats has come full circle.
I've spoken of players who aren't with us anymore and their games seem better in recollection than they may actually have been in real life, good example being my father.
Funny how that works.
And imo, it's all good.

 

[lfigueroa]

My recollection is that Fats had numerous scores against top flight players like Lassiter, Shorty, and the memorable slow hustle of Richie Florence, albeit with a spot, who at the time was one of the best players in the country.

I also recall Freddy or Billy saying that Fats was an inconsistent player but capable of capable of catching a gear that would scare even the big dogs.

Lou Figueroa