Vernon Elliott's impossible cross-side bank

belmicah said:
Can you CueTable that one (Efren's impossible cut shot) for us laypersons?
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I think the description in words is not so hard to follow. Imagine you are playing one pocket. There is one object ball on the table and it is on the foot spot. The cue ball is near your opponent's pocket, a few inches from the jaws, and centered on a line from the center of the pocket to the spotted object ball. I hope that everyone can follow this description of the set-up. It's really pretty simple.

There are two standard banks to play -- straight up and down the table and the three cushion shot. Instead, cut the ball straight into your pocket. Yes, it looks impossible. Yes, the cut is more than 90 degrees. And yes, Efren is said to bet on the shot. He probably wants more than one try, though.

In my experience, this cut shot is made with the same stroke as the bank shot pictured in the base note: maximum outside english, as level a cue as possible, and slightly below center. Oh, and a fairly thin hit, but not as thin as you might think.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think the description in words is not so hard to follow. Imagine you are playing one pocket. There is one object ball on the table and it is on the foot spot. The cue ball is near your opponent's pocket, a few inches from the jaws, and centered on a line from the center of the pocket to the spotted object ball. I hope that everyone can follow this description of the set-up. It's really pretty simple.

There are two standard banks to play -- straight up and down the table and the three cushion shot. Instead, cut the ball straight into your pocket. Yes, it looks impossible. Yes, the cut is more than 90 degrees. And yes, Efren is said to bet on the shot. He probably wants more than one try, though.

In my experience, this cut shot is made with the same stroke as the bank shot pictured in the base note: maximum outside english, as level a cue as possible, and slightly below center. Oh, and a fairly thin hit, but not as thin as you might think.
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Does the cue ball miss the other corner pocket on the short rail, or long rail?
 
belmicah said:
Does the cue ball miss the other corner pocket on the short rail, or long rail?
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The cue ball, after contacting the object ball on the spot, hits the far side cushion above the side pocket and then continues three cushions towards "your" corner pocket. If you miss the shot, the cue ball will sometimes come close to knocking the object ball in on a "second try." I suppose for the purpose of betting on this shot, "scratches don't count."
 
belmicah said:
Can you CueTable that one for us laypersons?
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Dear there:

TennesseeJoe, a fine gentleman, drew this shot for me at Derby City Classic 2 months ago. It is slightly different from Bob's version but it tells the same idea. I would love to see the shot in person.

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=205

(In TennesseeJoe's version, the cueball is closer to the first diamond)
 
I will believe Vernon Elliot's bank shot and Efren's cut shot when I see them in person or on video, and not one minute sooner. Pure poppycock.
 
Rarelymisses said:
I will believe Vernon Elliot's bank shot and Efren's cut shot when I see them in person or on video, and not one minute sooner. Pure poppycock.
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I made this bank shot with witnesses last week. To be fair, I was expecting to miss :D it was the first try :)

I wouldn't bet I could make it in 20 tries...

-s
 
Bob Jewett said:
Maybe I'll do Efren's impossible off-the-spot-one-pocket cut shot as well.
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Bob,
I have drawn out the shot for you. using a different ball I measured the angle to be about 87 degrees if cheating the pocket to the long rail side. (added: this means the cut angle is 93 degrees) The picture is too big to upload here please check this new entry in CueTable Public Library.

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=648#post648
 
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cuetable said:
... I have drawn out the shot for you. using a different ball I measured the angle to be about 87 degrees if cheating the pocket to the long rail side. ...
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I'm dubious. The shot straight to the center of the corner pocket would be 90 degrees if the object ball was not on the spot but instead was one ball from the spot towards "your" pocket. Moving the ball to the spot makes the center-of-the-pocket shot something like 93 degrees. I don't think cheating the pocket will give you six degrees.

I'd look at your drawing, but it seems to require something my computer doesn't have.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'm dubious. The shot straight to the center of the corner pocket would be 90 degrees if the object ball was not on the spot but instead was one ball from the spot towards "your" pocket. Moving the ball to the spot makes the center-of-the-pocket shot something like 93 degrees. I don't think cheating the pocket will give you six degrees.

I'd look at your drawing, but it seems to require something my computer doesn't have.
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Hi Bob,
There is a screen shot in png format attached in the same post. (scroll down)

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?t=549

I should be more clear in my post. 87 degrees is the angle between the line of 9B/GhostB and the line of GhostB/EndPt. Which means the cut angle is 93 degrees.

Thanks for pointing it out. :)
 
In looking at the Efren shot, I can see where the CB could have some bounce on it as it approached the OB...you are shooting somewhat jacked up out of the corner. Therefore, emulating Efren's perfect stroke & timing, you would have an infinitesimally small chance of dropping the CB onto the OB for a perfect 90* cut. A 314 would not work for this.

EDIT: I did a little quick math and the best you can do in 2-dimensions (i.e. no bouncing CB's) & without any magic spin is about an 85* cut (relative to the centerline of the two balls at rest) from that position. If you had a sufficiently loose table, you might be able to get the OB to fall in off the point. The opening would need to be something greater than about 5".
 
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mosconiac said:
In looking at the Efren shot ...
EDIT: I did a little quick math and the best you can do in 2-dimensions (i.e. no bouncing CB's) & without any magic spin is about an 85* cut ...
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I think your geometry is off. The cut is closer to 95 degrees than 85. It is certainly larger than 90 degrees if you put the ball in the middle of the pocket.

In any case, I got out the video equipment yesterday and managed to get both the bank shot and the cut shot onto tape. It took me about two hours, but I have several excuses. The table is a 9-foot GC3 with Simonis 860 that is a few months old. Medium pockets.

Now if I can just find one of my VCRs and figure out how to use the el-cheapo video-to-file card in my computer, I'll see if I can get both shots onto youtube.
 
mosconiac said:
In looking at the Efren shot, I can see where the CB could have some bounce on it as it approached the OB...you are shooting somewhat jacked up out of the corner. Therefore, emulating Efren's perfect stroke & timing, you would have an infinitesimally small chance of dropping the CB onto the OB for a perfect 90* cut. A 314 would not work for this.



Why would a 314 not work for this????
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Bob Jewett said:
... Now if I can just find one of my VCRs and figure out how to use the el-cheapo video-to-file card in my computer, I'll see if I can get both shots onto youtube.
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Well, I got seven clips off the VHS tape, but they're pretty bad quality. Probably due to the built-into-the-TV VCR I was using at the pool hall. The one with Vernon Elliott's bank shot is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEyCQSN8qU0 and the one with the impossible cut shot is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHf3o6FtNnQ but it may take a while for them to be available.
 
jay helfert said:
He would put it right at the point, a little closer than shown in the diagram. Still a super tough shot, but makeable if you have the stroke. Bugs could also do it. He is the only one who could match Vernon bank for bank. Of course Eddie Taylor could make some miraculous shots too. He would bank balls cross side "over" blocking balls. And I swear I saw him make the object ball curve, going slightly around a blocking ball. How, I have no idea to this day. You can ask Buddy about this shot. He saw it to.

Remember we were playing on much different cloth, the old Stevens cloth. It had a lot more 'bite' to it. Meaning it would take the english better. I think this shot can be made today on that slow cloth they used in the IPT events.
I don't know about making it on the slick Simoniz though.
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You hit the nail on the head it was the cloth, Stevens or Mali if you had the stroke alot of things worked differently, Simonis equilizes alot of things.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, I got seven clips off the VHS tape, but they're pretty bad quality. Probably due to the built-into-the-TV VCR I was using at the pool hall. The one with Vernon Elliott's bank shot is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEyCQSN8qU0 and the one with the impossible cut shot is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHf3o6FtNnQ but it may take a while for them to be available.
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Hi Bob:

The videos are great! They illustrated the point well. I have inserted them next to the layouts in CueTable Public Library ( A well implemented forum which can host CueTable, Large Sized Images and Online Videos in threads, specially designed to archive educational information in pool and billiard )

http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=681#post681
http://pl.cuetable.com/showthread.php?p=682#post682

Now people can view the layouts and videos all together on one page nicely without distraction. I have copied the comments as well as a link back to you on YouTube. :)
 
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Fatboy said:
Wow!!!! looks legit to me. good stuff
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In one clip of the impossible cut shot, I over cut the ball and it went about six inches towards the 3/4 diamond on the tough side of the pocket. Several times on the bank shot I over cut the ball and it ended right between the side pockets after going only about a diamond and a half. If you shoot a shot for a whole hour, some strange things will be observed.
 
Nice job Bob! I remember when I first started playing pool I picked up Robert Byrne's book and I remember him talking about you helping him out with many different things in the book. I remember thinking this Bob Jewett guy must know a thing or two! :) So I guess in a roundabout way I credit you for some of the shots I have in my arsenal. Thanks!

Here is a thread I posted a few years back about a shot I learned in Robert Byrne's book. This shot/experience alone was worth the price of the book!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=11306
 
I have a theory about the impossible bank shot ..... I suspect that the cue ball is hitting the object ball twice. The object ball bounces off the cushion and then hits the cue ball again, giving it the proper angle to go in the hole. If you look at the angle of the cue ball after it has traveled about a foot post-impact, that angle is hardly consistent with a single impact. Also, I once had a clueless guy make this impossible bank on me, but the object ball was at the first diamond beyond the side pocket ! I couldn't believe my eyes, but I decided it had to be 2 impacts. Two impacts makes it a bank-carom, not a simple bank shot.
 
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