Vintage cue ID help

phreaticus

Well-known member
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Hi,

I recently acquired these among a batch of cues. So far I’ve been able to tentatively glean that the engraved full splice is a Portuguese Sampaio (vintage unknown) and the two butterfly cues are AE Schmidt, most likely from 1950’s, competitors to BW Willie Hoppe cues of the era.
Could any experts help confirm, deny, clarify? Any/all info is greatly appreciated.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All of that could very well be true, just from the photos. so what else do you need to know? value?- range of $150 or so each ,maybe a bit more as well- cues like this are OK but not in great demand. just my 2 cents.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
All of that could very well be true, just from the photos. so what else do you need to know? value?- range of $150 or so each ,maybe a bit more as well- cues like this are OK but not in great demand. just my 2 cents.
Hi, I'm aware that they aren't super special/unique, I guess I was mostly interested to confirm whether the info I had was correct, and to get more accurate ideas of their ages if possible. I'm not a knowledgeable collector, I just like old full splice cues for my own enjoyment - I find their history & workmanship interesting. Thanks
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
AES -- second only to brunswick in many respects. What an enviable position to be in for 50 to 100 years.
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
I have never seen anything but a brass joint on Sampaio cues, maybe it has been changed out? The shaft on that cue looks like it may have been modified from a older Brunswick shaft.

Middle cue could be a Katz cue and looks to be in fine shape.

The cue on the right is also a nice cue with the figured forearm.

AE Schmidt was certainly a competitor and sometimes used water slide decals with their name on them.

Nice collection.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
I have never seen anything but a brass joint on Sampaio cues, maybe it has been changed out? The shaft on that cue looks like it may have been modified from a older Brunswick shaft.

Middle cue could be a Katz cue and looks to be in fine shape.

The cue on the right is also a nice cue with the figured forearm.

AE Schmidt was certainly a competitor and sometimes used water slide decals with their name on them.

Nice collection.
Thanks very much for the information. The far right one that seems to be an AES - hits incredibly well, just as great as some of my 1920-1930's BW cues. Something about these old pieces of wood that is just amazing. I used to make fun of fat old guys that collect cues... Originally, I started sniffing out these old things to make a nice conversion, but now that I have a handful of nice old ones in excellent shape, including some amazing 1 pc 26.5 and titlists - I've discovered there is nothing quite like a 2am solo barefoot/underwear session with a 100+ year old cue that hits solid as hell and I can't bring myself to chop any of them up. That's probably a little bit TMI :ROFLMAO:
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A lot of the feel in older well made cues has as much to do with the wood available back then as anything else- maybe more so than anything else. I rarely see any cues being made today with the wood density of cues from many years ago, some may dispute that; but you can look at a lot of cues or even wood baseball bats from the 20s thru the 60s and I definitely see a difference in the woods.

Straight grain maple was a tighter grain in general years ago, the eyes in Birdseye Maple were smaller, tighter and more dense years ago, ebony was heavier and also more dense - ash and hickory as well - if one cannot see it in older pool cues- just pick up a pro baseball bat from, say the 1930s or 40s - rap your knuckles against the wood bat barrel - the wood is as hard as concrete.

Your appreciation for these older cues is so refreshing to hear - I enjoy the art of cue making and it's final products just about as much as playing the game itself - there are not too many sports where hand made equipment in custom shops can present themselves as a hobby by itself - music and it's associated instruments can also fall into this category of performance and appreciation for the tools of the trade.

I have sometimes picked up some very inexpensive cues that played fantastic- way above expectations- it was not because the construction technique was any different from the entire batch, it was because that one cue out of maybe thousands in a run had unique wood properties.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BTW, I once owned a cue that looked like your cue that you label as a Sampaio. Mine was a carom cue, it had the same joint pin characteristics as yours and the handle was similar as well. Mine was not a Sampaio, the shaft was stamped with a Spanish name, and it could have been from another maker in Spain, Portugal, or South America - I never could find the origin of the cue , even with extensive research. It was quality made and contained ivory inlays and was similar to yours- The shaft was stamped " Castello"
 

kgoods

Consistently Inconsistent
Gold Member
That top one appears to be a Boetzel, check out this thread and see Lizardking's reply (second post). It looks just like the second one from the bottom in that pic. Does it say Made In Germany or Made In West Germany anywhere on it? The only thing that throws me off is the joint is a little different.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/this-old-cue.503157/
 

Cuebuddy

Mini cues
Silver Member
Thanks very much for the information. The far right one that seems to be an AES - hits incredibly well, just as great as some of my 1920-1930's BW cues. Something about these old pieces of wood that is just amazing. I used to make fun of fat old guys that collect cues... Originally, I started sniffing out these old things to make a nice conversion, but now that I have a handful of nice old ones in excellent shape, including some amazing 1 pc 26.5 and titlists - I've discovered there is nothing quite like a 2am solo barefoot/underwear session with a 100+ year old cue that hits solid as hell and I can't bring myself to chop any of them up. That's probably a little bit TMI :ROFLMAO:
I really love the old cues as well. Here is some of my collection a few years back, I still add to it.
 

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PhilosopherKing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the first on the left may be Dutch or Scandinavian or maybe French.

The middle cue, as I told you when I sold it, is a primo example.

I dug-up what I think may be the original shipping tube for the single butterfly, I’ll post a picture as it may help with an id.
 

PhilosopherKing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the first on the left may be Dutch or Scandinavian or maybe French.

The middle cue, as I told you when I sold it, is a primo example.

I dug-up what I think may be the original shipping tube for the single butterfly, I’ll post a picture as it may help with an id.
Looks like it says Brunswick… Nice.

The black case, I believe, is original to the first cue on the left.

The olive/brown case is original to the double-butterfly.
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gcmortal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have the almost the same cue as the middle one, red veneer instead of blue, with the olive/brown case. Mint condition, closet queen.

Glad y'all are less lazy than me about getting the darlings identified. :giggle:

Only Schmidt cue catalog picture I am able to find is from 1969, not it.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
That top one appears to be a Boetzel, check out this thread and see Lizardking's reply (second post). It looks just like the second one from the bottom in that pic. Does it say Made In Germany or Made In West Germany anywhere on it? The only thing that throws me off is the joint is a little different.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/this-old-cue.503157/

Wow, super helpful - thank you very much. Indeed my top cue in the pics looks almost identical to that Boetze, right down to the round, crumbly, deteriorating orange bumper. Local table mechanic buddy told me that was a Sampaio because he has one very similar, but his is cleary marked with a logo and has a brass collar. I did a few pics of some Sampaio’s that looked somewhat similar, but that Boetze seems almost identical. Too bad the pc from Lizardking that older thread doesn’t show the cue joints...

All 3 of my cues in question have no names, logos, insignia, or writing of any kind, only the weight stamps. I’ve looked over them very closely, nada.
 
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phreaticus

Well-known member
A lot of the feel in older well made cues has as much to do with the wood available back then as anything else- maybe more so than anything else. I rarely see any cues being made today with the wood density of cues from many years ago, some may dispute that; but you can look at a lot of cues or even wood baseball bats from the 20s thru the 60s and I definitely see a difference in the woods.

Straight grain maple was a tighter grain in general years ago, the eyes in Birdseye Maple were smaller, tighter and more dense years ago, ebony was heavier and also more dense - ash and hickory as well - if one cannot see it in older pool cues- just pick up a pro baseball bat from, say the 1930s or 40s - rap your knuckles against the wood bat barrel - the wood is as hard as concrete.

Your appreciation for these older cues is so refreshing to hear - I enjoy the art of cue making and it's final products just about as much as playing the game itself - there are not too many sports where hand made equipment in custom shops can present themselves as a hobby by itself - music and it's associated instruments can also fall into this category of performance and appreciation for the tools of the trade.

I have sometimes picked up some very inexpensive cues that played fantastic- way above expectations- it was not because the construction technique was any different from the entire batch, it was because that one cue out of maybe thousands in a run had unique wood properties.
Thanks for sharing Mike. I’m definitely a believer in age/density of the woods having a huge impact to cue feel & durability.
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
Looks like it says Brunswick… Nice.

The black case, I believe, is original to the first cue on the left.

The olive/brown case is original to the double-butterfly.
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Thanks for helping me try to figure them out.

I couldn’t quite get your meaning with the Brunswick comment - I can’t spot BW anywhere in the pics. What am I missing?

Thx
 

phreaticus

Well-known member
Thanks very much for all the info & help gang. In case anyone else is interested, it seems the first cue, the engraved one that I thought might be a Sampaio - is most likely either a german Boeztel or french Hiolle carom cue. It has attributes of both, hard to say...

For the double butterfly (middle cue in pics), found this thread, which features some cues with almost identical points & joints. Seems BW made carom cues like these themselves & via 3rd party contracts that looked like this, could be Rieper, Oliver Briggs, Luscher, or Katz... Apparently these come up from time to time, and are very difficult to precisely ID - as I’m clearly discovering!

Way too time consuming for me to dig further, but if anyone has other leads that could help narrow down my mystery cues, I’m all ears.

Thanks & cheers ✌️
 

SSDiver2112

2b || !2b t^ ?
Here is a link to some old BW catalogs if you want to dig through.

 
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