~ Vintage Player ~

Great info guys, originally I was leaning towards JW and never ruled it out. Surprising as it is, the few people that have seen the cue did not say JW as their first guess. The joint on the cue is about .820 and the diameter at the Hoppe ring is 1.3 and the wrap is 12 7/8 long. The wrap is cortland and I’m no archeologist but the patina on the cue is definitely consistent with a pre 1980’s. I had a Joss from around 1970 and it looked newer than this cue. Not saying this one is that old or older but by any means...sometimes it’s hard to get a good read from pictures.

With the massive interest rate banks are paying right now I might end up selling this one and investing...:scratchhead:
 
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$TAKE HOR$E said:
Great info guys, originally I was leaning towards JW and never ruled it out. Surprising as it is, the few people that have seen the cue did not say JW as their first guess. The joint on the cue is about .820 and the diameter at the Hoppe ring is 1.3 and the wrap is 12 7/8 long. The wrap is cortland and I’m no archeologist but the patina on the cue is definitely consistent with a pre 1980’s. I had a Joss from around 1970 and it looked newer than this cue. Not saying this one is that old or older but by any means...sometimes it’s hard to get a good read from pictures.

With the massive interest rate banks are paying right now I might end up selling this one and investing...:scratchhead:
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You must be an archaeologist, because this cue is 1970s for sure. A very nice example
 
As I said earlier it is in the right family of makers.

It isn't really countersunk or piloted, just chamfered. This could be done to clean up a pin hole bore that chipped a little on original installation. It could also be done if the pin were replaced.

Slight differences like that can be found in many makers works. They might make one or a few cues with a slightly different process or technique. Easy enough. Unless you have seen one, you will never know they existed.

Example: "So-and-so never made a piloted joint cue, only flat face." And then you see one and are astounded by it. Example: Bill McDernott. We all know he made some piloted later, but many will say he never made one early on. We now know he did 100% for sure.

Ideologist posted a cue he knew was a JW.

The lack of a logo and a less yellowed finish can be explained by a refinish. A less yellowed finish can be explained by a cue not exposed to much UV...stored for a long time. Exposure to UV accelerated yellowing.

At any rate, JW is the most reasonable explanation as the source of the cue.

But as I said earlier, I would love to see Stroud chime in on the cue.

.
 
Chopdoc said:
The lack of a logo and a less yellowed finish can be explained by a refinish. A less yellowed finish can be explained by a cue not exposed to much UV...stored for a long time. Exposure to UV accelerated yellowing.
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I donno if this helps but it’s a decent comparison I reckon...even though the SW is purpleheart. I highly dislike logos or makers marks on cues, if I were alive in the 70’s and had a cue made it would definitely be a mystery cue in today’s market :D :thumbup:
 

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$TAKE HOR$E said:
I donno if this helps but it’s a decent comparison I reckon...even though the SW is purpleheart. I highly dislike logos or makers marks on cues, if I were alive in the 70’s and had a cue made it would definitely be a mystery cue in today’s market :D :thumbup:
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It isn't just the finish that gets darker and or yellow or other color, the wood itself darkens and grain appearance changes with that.

The ultimate effect depends on the wood, the finish, and the cumulative exposure to UV.

Funny about your position regarding marks and logos. It's exactly that which can put us in a tail spin on old cues. LOL! :grin:

Indeed, any maker could take a custom order to be made without a logo or mark if he wished. Even some of the ones we consider mass producers will do it. For example Schmelke will delete the logo on any cue you order on request.
 
Chopdoc said:
As I said earlier it is in the right family of makers.

It isn't really countersunk or piloted, just chamfered.

.
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You may call it a chamfer. I call it a countersink. A countersink is a very visiable, angled space between the pin and the ivory. A chamfer is barely taking material off the inside or outside of a material, to get a smoother product, not visible to the naked eye. Ever handloaded ammo, Doc?

For example, a chamfer on a rifle or pistol cartridge is just the slightest edge taken off the inside or outside of the cartridge wall to make sure the bullet will seat, and to make sure the cartridge will chamber. I've only done this thousands of times. This baby is a countersink, not a chamfer.

I have popcorn every time this thread comes up.

All the best,
WW
 
Chopdoc said:
It isn't just the finish that gets darker and or yellow or other color, the wood itself darkens and grain appearance changes with that.

The ultimate effect depends on the wood, the finish, and the cumulative exposure to UV.
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Here’s a quick sorta cool story on that. A few weeks ago a friend called and said he had an older Meucci he wanted to sell. It was an Oldie 2 but not an original, this one was from the early to mid 90s I think. It had been in a case for the last 15 years and that cue had a patina like no other cue I’ve seen, newer or decades older. Very cool looking cue even though it was in rough condition. The finish was bad, very rough around the inlays and rings even though it hadn’t been played with in almost 20 years. Another friend of mine had a Predator that did the same exact thing. It took on such a different look it was almost as if it wasn’t even maple. Very mysterious cues can be...
 
WildWing said:
Then you get my award of the day!

All the best,
WW
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I will admit I have more pool cues than guns. :D

But I just picked up an RDB, and my AK pistol and KSG do fit in my saddlebag. :thumbup:

Been shooting since I was 8 years old and still have my first gun. A 1970 Marlin 39 Century Ltd.

My attitude with guns is the same as pool cues. I don't sell, I buy. I have every gun I ever owned except two, one I sold because I couldn't get it back in the country due to the assault rifle ban in the 1990's, the other I gave to a family member because he thought he inherited it and not me...wasn't willing to argue over it. It was a 1950's .22 WMR High Standard revolver. I'll get another at some point. Cool revolver.

My S&W 659 is like my block letter Joss. Old school, got both in 1985 and shoot better with them than anything else.

Plenty more in the safe and hidden in the house.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

.
 
Chopdoc said:
I will admit I have more pool cues than guns. :D

But I just picked up an RDB, and my AK pistol and KSG do fit in my saddlebag. :thumbup:

Been shooting since I was 8 years old and still have my first gun. A 1970 Marlin 39 Century Ltd.

My attitude with guns is the same as pool cues. I don't sell, I buy. I have every gun I ever owned except two, one I sold because I couldn't get it back in the country due to the assault rifle ban in the 1990's, the other I gave to a family member because he thought he inherited it and not me...wasn't willing to argue over it. It was a 1950's .22 WMR High Standard revolver. I'll get another at some point. Cool revolver.

My S&W 659 is like my block letter Joss. Old school, got both in 1985 and shoot better with them than anything else.

Plenty more in the safe and hidden in the house.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

.
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Good to hear you're not a girly-man, Doc. Not that there was any doubt.

Like you, I have more cues than guns. But I have everything from 380 to 45 Auto and 44 Mag. I like recoil. No surprise there. I like things that hit me.

To keep this thread relevant, some are convinced this is a Stroud, and it may be. But, I'll offer one more thing. I've never seen an original Stroud or Janes with a countersink joint, but I have seen a Tim Scruggs with a countersink ivory joint.

Why? Because I think I was probably the first one to order an ivory joint from Tim, soon after he went into business for himself, January 1979. To be honest, I didn't really like the look of it, and it ended up cracking later on. I don't like countersinks.

But anyhow, nobody has mentioned Scruggs, so I thought I would. It is possible this cue could be an early Scruggs. But, it's not 100%. Even though there are those who are 100%.

I would still call it up in the air.

All the best,
WW
 
WildWing said:
But anyhow, nobody has mentioned Scruggs, so I thought I would. It is possible this cue could be an early Scruggs. But, it's not 100%. Even though there are those who are 100%.

I would still call it up in the air.

All the best,
WW
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I believe Scruggs was mentioned. I could be wrong.

As I said I think we are in the right family.

I think it is most likely Stroud...until proven otherwise. That's my medical mind, that's the way we think. It does not mean I think it's settled.

.
 
There is no Scruggs of this vintage with points even remotely this good. The points on a TS were awful through the 1980s. The later stuff is very nice, but the early stuff is positively primitive compared to the cue in this thread.
 
Chopdoc said:
Who did these points/veneers?
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Those are two different cues, right Doc? If the first one is a Joss, the double wide off-white veneer was mainly used in the late 60s and early 70s. I don't recall seeing it after that point. If that's the case it could be been Bill Stroud, Dan Janes, or Tim Scruggs, hard to tell. But that's only if it's a Joss. And if later, probably Dan Janes or his son Steve could have done it, if they had some of that veneer still around.

The second cue, from the dash rings in the joint collar, plus the dark color or the collar, looks like the diamond series, 1981 or 1982, which would have been Dan or Steve Janes.

Not always easy to tell unless a maker says, yep, I made that one. And even then there's some doubt.

All the best,
WW
 
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