VISION CENTER vs DOMINANT EYE

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i beleive finding your vision center is more important
than just knowing your eye dominance
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center

in the eye dominance thread RandyG said
"Our cue stick should be in a place where we know we are pointing at our selected target.

I know many right eyed-left handers and vise versa.

My answer is: don't worry about your eye dominance, get your cue stick into a position where you see it's pointing at your target.

Now all you have to do is deliver the stick on that line."

what do the rest of you think??
 
i beleive finding your vision center is more important
than just knowing your eye dominance
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html#vision_center

in the eye dominance thread RandyG said
"Our cue stick should be in a place where we know we are pointing at our selected target.

I know many right eyed-left handers and vise versa.

My answer is: don't worry about your eye dominance, get your cue stick into a position where you see it's pointing at your target.

Now all you have to do is deliver the stick on that line."

what do the rest of you think??

I agree 100%! Get the stick pointed at the target and hit it! Sounds easy enough. In fact I know if I can line up 1/16 of an inch off each time (like I am doing now) that eventually with care I will be spot on all the time.

Ken

p.s. "easy enough" was tongue in cheek btw :thumbup:
 
We are all individuals.

One size does not fit all.

No cookie cutter approach will work for everyone.

One has to see a true straight line as a straight line.

If one sees a mis-alignment as straight, one will struggle with misses.

To play better pool one should correct such a problem if one can.

Whatever it takes to see a true straight line as straight & not a mis-alignment as straight will be beneficial.

If one can not correct this type of issue on their own or with the help of an eye doctor, one should probably contact Mr. Gene regarding his Perfect Aim program.

JMHOs
 
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I do NOT agree with Randy and Scott at all!

I struggled for years not knowing why I missed when I had no knowledge about my dominant eye.
I tried to change hundreds of things in my stroke and grip and stance although my error WAS NOT in my stroke/stance/grip etc.

If I knew what I know now I would probably had saved at least 5 years of frustration! And believe me I spent several months 8-10 hours a day- 4-5 days a week training ALONE at the table!

I played years and years adjusting conciously my aim due to experience in order to make the balls on so many shots because I knew I would miss them when I aimed at them in the way I perceived them.

Still I was able to have some success
and run 102 balls in straight pool but my level of play had often a swing between semi pro and total sucker
in the same day and I just did not know why...

I perceived cuts to the left different than cuts to the right before finding my perfect location of my dominant eye!

I played aiming with my right eye my left eye with both eyes... changed the position of my eyes over the cue 20 times.


Today i can just aim like I perceive the shots. My consistency went through the roof.

Finding your perfect location for your vison center / dominant eye is as crucial as a consistent stroke and is often even the reason for stearing as your subconcios is aware that something is wrong!

You^ve got to see it right to do it right-
There are NO COMPROMISES!

There is "no just do it and it will come to you some day" for 90% of the players unless you play 6 hours +x a day for several years.

In case your are not among these lucky 10% you have to work on it- videotape yourself and write down what you observe adjust and do this again and again to get it down!

But when you get it down it is a completely new world!

EKKES
 
I do NOT agree with Randy and Scott at all!

I struggled for years not knowing why I missed when I had no knowledge about my dominant eye.
I tried to change hundreds of things in my stroke and grip and stance although my error WAS NOT in my stroke/stance/grip etc.

If I knew what I know now I would probably had saved at least 5 years of frustration! And believe me I spent several months 8-10 hours a day- 4-5 days a week training ALONE at the table!

I played years and years adjusting conciously my aim due to experience in order to make the balls on so many shots because I knew I would miss them when I aimed at them in the way I perceived them.

Still I was able to have some success
and run 102 balls in straight pool but my level of play had often a swing between semi pro and total sucker
in the same day and I just did not know why...

I perceived cuts to the left different than cuts to the right before finding my perfect location of my dominant eye!

I played aiming with my right eye my left eye with both eyes... changed the position of my eyes over the cue 20 times.


Today i can just aim like I perceive the shots. My consistency went through the roof.

Finding your perfect location for your vison center / dominant eye is as crucial as a consistent stroke and is often even the reason for stearing as your subconcios is aware that something is wrong!

You^ve got to see it right to do it right-
There are NO COMPROMISES!

There is "no just do it and it will come to you some day" for 90% of the players unless you play 6 hours +x a day for several years.

In case your are not among these lucky 10% you have to work on it- videotape yourself and write down what you observe adjust and do this again and again to get it down!

But when you get it down it is a completely new world!

EKKES

Sorry that you had that much trouble with aiming.

Each student is very different. Finding their correct vision center should not take a lifetime of playing.

To each their own
randyg
 
You know I know you're 100% correct....

I do NOT agree with Randy and Scott at all!

I struggled for years not knowing why I missed when I had no knowledge about my dominant eye.
I tried to change hundreds of things in my stroke and grip and stance although my error WAS NOT in my stroke/stance/grip etc.

If I knew what I know now I would probably had saved at least 5 years of frustration! And believe me I spent several months 8-10 hours a day- 4-5 days a week training ALONE at the table!

I played years and years adjusting conciously my aim due to experience in order to make the balls on so many shots because I knew I would miss them when I aimed at them in the way I perceived them.

Still I was able to have some success
and run 102 balls in straight pool but my level of play had often a swing between semi pro and total sucker
in the same day and I just did not know why...

I perceived cuts to the left different than cuts to the right before finding my perfect location of my dominant eye!

I played aiming with my right eye my left eye with both eyes... changed the position of my eyes over the cue 20 times.


Today i can just aim like I perceive the shots. My consistency went through the roof.

Finding your perfect location for your vison center / dominant eye is as crucial as a consistent stroke and is often even the reason for stearing as your subconcios is aware that something is wrong!

You^ve got to see it right to do it right-
There are NO COMPROMISES!

There is "no just do it and it will come to you some day" for 90% of the players unless you play 6 hours +x a day for several years.

In case your are not among these lucky 10% you have to work on it- videotape yourself and write down what you observe adjust and do this again and again to get it down!

But when you get it down it is a completely new world!

EKKES

Mr Ekkes bought my Perfect Aim video about 2 or 3 years ago and was elated about what he had learned. I don't know exactly how much he understood about the dominant eye at that time but what he learned from Perfect Aim took it to another level.

Here is one of the conversations we had on the internet. This was sent to my manager and he sent it to me:

Hi there, This just got in from a fellow named Ekkes from Germany that has requested to be set up as a distributor. He has his own pool school and is very well know among the pool world in germany and the surrounding areas over there.

Now enough about me let's start to talk about the important stuff... YOU AND "PERFECT AIM"

1. Congratulations for having figuered out the system and having made the DVD
I orderd the DVD about 10 days ago and had it in the mail on Wednesday. This stuff is hot!
I worked on your system for 8 hours and I got to tell you, that you have done a great job!
Actually my personal aiming system is quite similar but what I didn't figure out before, was the fact that the eye's dominance turn on cut shots. Although I always did it consciously on super thin cut shots along the rail. It is crazy that no one figuered this out before, although it is right in front of your face - just like you said.
his explains why many players have more difficulties with cuts to the left than to the right - or the other way round.
When you are in the zone, your eyes will probably do this automatically- but when you try to shoot shoot under pressure or any other time when you aim consciously you absolutely have to know with which eye you have to aim and where this eye have to be located in relationsip to the cueball and objectball.
Otherwise you have a 50% chance to miss the shot.
This is about as good as it gets. I didn't put the whole e-mail on here for privacy reasons. I get e-mails like this all the time. Most people don't just put the info on AZ billiards and I think it is because they really don't have a reason to do so unless I tell them to put their oppinion on the site to let everyone else know.
Again you can go to the site or sift through the thread. I'm sure you will see plenty. Have a great pool weekend Geno......

Bottom line is once a player has learned Perfect Aim or really knows how this dominant eye works with the brain there is no way you can tell the players that this is a non issue.

Mr Ekkes was already an accomplished player. And a very admired teacher in Germany. He knew exactly what he had when he learned this info.

I've have taken the eye dominance to another level since then. And there is no way when I get done with a student that they would ever think the eye dominance doesn't matter.

The nice thing is Mr Ekkes can continue teaching Perfect Aim with his See system and I can continue teaching Perfect Aim with my Perfect Aim.

If the other teachers don't understand it and don't care about it they just can't teach anyone the most valuable piece of info a player could possibly learn.

If players knew how much this would help their game, not just knowing but knowing how to use it correctly, Mr Ekkes and I would be so busy we wouldn't know what to do.

Who was the Guy that said the world was round????????????????????

Everyone else thought it was flat.........

Nice post there Mr Ekkes and good luck..........
 
Sorry that you had that much trouble with aiming.

Each student is very different. Finding their correct vision center should not take a lifetime of playing.

To each their own
randyg

Pool is a lifetime endeavor for many players and as such during our lifetime of playing we have to learn to adapt and address changes especially in our vision....

Finding the correct vision center is an ongoing process. You just don't find it and forget it as your vision will change over the years. This is why it is very important for some players to understand HOW to find and create consistent dominance and head position....

For those of you that believe that dominance is a myth... You are completely off in left field... Or maybe not in left field but you are not even considering that you cannot understand limitations that others may face. Vision is a pretty personal thing and we usually just assume that everyone must see the same way we do... Don't they??? Absolutely not!!!

Many of us were not blessed with perfect vision... Convergence Issues, Astigmatism, fatigue, blood sugar issues ect. all can impact how we see from day to day....

I can aim the cue on my intended path and it will look right basically anywhere under either eye or between the 2 eyes... What I know from experience is that if I center the cue under my chin that I will always miss left of my target... As I have gotten older I miss more to the left than I did just a few years ago.....

Before I spoke with Gene I was at a loss for what to do.... I actually played in the 2010 Music City Open aiming every shot to the right of the pocket 3inches... I put up a 6pack and several 2s and 3s before I got knocked out but it was in no way a fun experience... Imagine not being able to just trust your eyes....

As far as Vision center VS Dominant eye... It's just semantics in the end... Vision center is how the eyes work together to create the proper shot picture... Dominance has the greatest influence on how the vision center is created... Can you find your vision center without knowing dominance? Yes... Can you know your dominance and not be able to find your vision center? Absolutely.....

Chris
 
I do NOT agree with Randy and Scott at all!

I struggled for years not knowing why I missed when I had no knowledge about my dominant eye.
I tried to change hundreds of things in my stroke and grip and stance although my error WAS NOT in my stroke/stance/grip etc.

If I knew what I know now I would probably had saved at least 5 years of frustration! And believe me I spent several months 8-10 hours a day- 4-5 days a week training ALONE at the table!

I played years and years adjusting conciously my aim due to experience in order to make the balls on so many shots because I knew I would miss them when I aimed at them in the way I perceived them.

Still I was able to have some success
and run 102 balls in straight pool but my level of play had often a swing between semi pro and total sucker
in the same day and I just did not know why...

I perceived cuts to the left different than cuts to the right before finding my perfect location of my dominant eye!

I played aiming with my right eye my left eye with both eyes... changed the position of my eyes over the cue 20 times.


Today i can just aim like I perceive the shots. My consistency went through the roof.

Finding your perfect location for your vison center / dominant eye is as crucial as a consistent stroke and is often even the reason for stearing as your subconcios is aware that something is wrong!

You^ve got to see it right to do it right-
There are NO COMPROMISES!

There is "no just do it and it will come to you some day" for 90% of the players unless you play 6 hours +x a day for several years.

In case your are not among these lucky 10% you have to work on it- videotape yourself and write down what you observe adjust and do this again and again to get it down!

But when you get it down it is a completely new world!

EKKES

Tap, tap, tap! This is exactly what I would've said. Good post!

Best,
Mike
 
I think Ekkes, Geno, Randy, Scott, and others, are all on to something?
They just need to get together and figure it all out?:smile:
Maybe I'll finally learn to play this game? ? :D
 
Look guys, I don't want to sound like a whiney whatever, but if you do a search on 'vision center' you will find something completely different than what you are discussing here.

There must be a name for what you're talking about that doesn't coincide with a store.

C'mon...what's the correct term for what you're discussing? There is aiming involved in other sports. What do they call it?

Maybe 'line of sight'?
 
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As far as Vision center VS Dominant eye... It's just semantics in the end... Vision center is how the eyes work together to create the proper shot picture... Dominance has the greatest influence on how the vision center is created... Can you find your vision center without knowing dominance? Yes... Can you know your dominance and not be able to find your vision center? Absolutely.....

Chris

that is why i beleive knowing your vision center is more important
( but i think its good to know both)
but i am not an instructor
 
that is why i beleive knowing your vision center is more important
( but i think its good to know both)
but i am not an instructor

Do you mean line of sight? How about using a term that more than just a few people will relate to? Would that be too much to ask??
 
Do you mean line of sight? How about using a term that more than just a few people will relate to? Would that be too much to ask??

No, it's a reasonable request you're making IMO, but I like the term, "vision center" because it describes centering that spot/that sagittal plane of the player's face atop the line of aim. Dr. Dave was the first person to use "vision center"...?

Otherwise, we have "bring your line of sight and the line of aim into one line" or "bring your line of sight above the imaginary line of aim on the table" and most people (I think) would ask, "Are they not the same line already? Isn't my line of sight what I'm aiming at and can see?"
 
Well, then 'vision center' will only be limited to the people who have access to that particular information provided by limited sources. Anyone who does a search online will be directed to their nearest Vision Center store.
 
Do you mean line of sight? How about using a term that more than just a few people will relate to? Would that be too much to ask??

Sorry Fran :)

i also used the shortcut *vision-center* very often. But more because it s not my mother-language. I will try to use it in the future the way it should be :-)
 
The only method i use to make corrections on this theme is the *sight-right* method. I ve been taught this in the 80 s- nowadays they make big money with a simple piece of wood and this method, lol.

This method itself and a qualified guy who helps you out there- in my opinion all you need.
 
Hi there Fran........

Do you mean line of sight? How about using a term that more than just a few people will relate to? Would that be too much to ask??

Your one of the most respected instructors on here and you do that with your knowledge. I'm impressed.

What I am talking about here is something that nobody has taken to this level before and it can be taught to anyone with great success.

There are players teaching what I teach now because it works so well and everyone has these problems to a certain extent. Some more and some less.

I can't come up with a different name because the whole thing is like a package.

Kind of like buying a car with out the tranny. Or reverse.

Once a person really understands the whole picture in and out it's real obvious.

When you learn something that nobody is really doing or seeing with a distinct knowledge of how it really works, who's the one to name it.

It's aiming and it fits together with itself and pool like a glove.

It has to do with everything you do in pool.

That's why i call it Perfect Aim. It is the Perfect spot that we are all trying to achieve and now someone can show anyone how to find it for themselves.

Chances of someone finding this on there own is very slim to none. Nobody did it before.

Someday there will be 50 teachers out there teaching what I teach. Then there will be a thousand. And when that happens this pool world will be so much better off because the players will all have the most important knowledge that they could ever get to help their game.

That's why I'm on the road everyday, teaching and playing having so much fun showing this to players one on one and watching that great big smile when they see the light as Rodney Morris said after I showed him this.

He knew how important this was. Because he saw it with his own eyes.

Vision center is pretty vague. You can be making your right eye work dominant a little or the left and your still in your vision center and can't really tell where perfect is unless you know how to find it. Many shots almost force the other eye to work as dominant.

Until a player can master this they are just not getting the most out of their game unless they are hitting a million balls and then they could still get better with this knowledge.

Got to go. Got a lesson at 2:00.......
 
I too do not like the term 'vision center'.

Vision center would seem to imply the center of one's vision. To most that would mean directly betwen the eyes, in the center.

What needs to be done is for one to get what ever their 'aiming vision' is, right eye, left eye, somewhere between the eyes, centered along the cue line so they can aim & direct the cue where they want to aim it, which naturally is along the shot line.

So, one needs to get one's 'aiming vision' or 'alignment vision' what ever that is as described above 'centered' over the cue so as to allow one to 'see' where the cue is actually aligned.

I think the terms 'aiming vision' or 'alignment vision' is a more appropriately description.

We are simply discussing vernacular & what would be 'better' for a layman.

If one knows what is meant by 'vision center' then it's a moot point.

But I think Fran's point is appropriate. How many in the general pool playing population know what is actually meant by the term 'vision center'?

Tell them to get their 'vision center' over the cue & see how many put the cue centered between their eyes. Do that in the text format of AZB where you can not see what they are doing & how much actual damage is being done to people's game.

If one is right eye dominant & sees a straight line aim with their right eye then that is their "vision center' by Dr. Dave's definition. I would think most people would do an aiming process by using their dominant eye, whether it be right or left & then some are somewhere in bewteen. So to say get your dominant eye over the cue could be incorrect.

Get your 'aiming vision' or your 'alignment' vision' over the center of the cue, seems more readily communicative. At least to me.
 
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