Hi Watchez.....
First of all... I never said that I made millions. As I am sure that Satman - who started this thread - can attest, I live a very meager life. My post - "For our small 70 or so team events that we have done, we've had to have $10,000 in coin on hand. Out of pocket... take out a loan, however you get it, but you have to have it. That's one reason why we have chosen to charge green fees instead of dealing with coins... we just don't have that kind of cash on hand......then.... what if some of it was stolen?"
stated "our of pocket or take out a loan". I was referring to tournament directors and promoters in general. In my case, I could never come out of pocket with $10,000 - so the reference to a LOAN was for our events. Most of the National league tournament directors can come out of pocket through the particular organizations. In most of our events, we have TWO days to collect enough money in coin drop to pay for having 32 diamond tables brought in at $175 each. Do the math yourself and see if we made any money........ I can assure you we did not. But, that is an expense of running a business and a risk you take by having brought in and paid for the tables. My bad.
In MOST areas of the country the League Operators do pay for the players/teams trip and hotel to Vegas. I am sure that there are some operators who do not pay as much as others - but I can assure you that most do pay. Some operators call it a travel fund, yet others choose to pay it out as prize money and let the players make their own arrangements. Of course, even though you do pay for it - sometimes things get twisted around. Last year, a player who had gone out to Vegas had an issue with their credit card. This player was going for mini's - NOT for the main event. I helped them out with their plane fare because if I hadn't - it would have really hurt several players because they were rooming together, getting a car, etc..... So I paid for his plane fare. When he returned, I saw him at league one night and he gave me a check for his airfare. Other members were standing around listening and now - all over that division people are telling others that when you go to Vegas with APA - they pay your way BUT you have to pay them back with any prize money you win. TOTALLY not true - but that's how some things happen. People hear things and don't take the time to really figure out what's going on. I suspect that is the case in many of these situations. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - but I can assure you that it doesn't happen as often as you think.
Regarding the tournament payouts, first off - you are not including any of the National Singles payouts. That tournament is held at a different time of year. There are 4 tiers of play in 8-ball and there is also the 9-ball format- each skill level tier winner earns $15,000 for 8-ball and $10,000 for 9-ball.
Every player that winds up in Vegas for singles earns cash. There is also the Jack and Jill event going on at that time.
One of the other issues that I have with your post is in your comment regarding the payouts being listed. You must realize that NO tournament can list the total payouts until the event numbers are in. You have shown the payout for the Masters Division - which isn't even part of the "main event". Yet, if you look at the numbers closely.... it pays almost as much as some of the other National Championships pay for winning their "Main Event" ($7,500) and is a 3-man team event (you only have to split it 3 ways). In the 8-ball Team Event for APA, the winning team receives $25,000. That, from my humble experience, blows the first place prize for the other tournaments out of the water. AND EVERY team that participates in the Team Events are GUARANTEED money. EVERY team that qualifies for Nationals will earn $350..... here is a quote from their website - "All nationally qualified teams receive $350 when they register at the event." That means, for example in the 8-ball division ALONE.... if there are 630 teams... 600 of them will receive $350 when they walk in the door - they get last place money BEFORE they even play. This total (600 x 350) is $210,000 FOR THE 8-BALL OPEN TEAMS ALONE - for last place! Then you add in the last place $350 for the 9-ball teams and for the ladies teams and I think you will see that the deficit to which you are referring is quickly disappearing. The winning teams from the 9-Ball division earn $15,000 and for the Ladies it is $10,000.
The money in between isn't that bad either. That is what I keep saying - it's okay to question things - but people keep quoting and passing on information that they don't really have or understand - and it creates bad kharma - over and over again for no reason. You also mentioned membership fees and weekly team fees. Again, two separate things. Team fees are collected at the local level and are handled by the league operator - who is a business person and is not doing this for free or for their health. I'm sure that you or anyone out here would not run a league as their primary business and not draw a paycheck....... Membership fees are collected for the National Office. Yes, it is a lot of money. Again - it is a business. It is not there for its' health. I can assure you that NONE of the league organizations pay out all of their membership money and all of their league fees. I don't see anyone bashing them or questioning their motives. The VNEA is supposed to be a non-profit, but they do not pay back 100%. When Mark took over the BCA it had been a "non-profit" organization which was supposed to pay back 100% - Mark immediately realized that these League Operators cannot do the type of job necessary and not receive some compensation, so he modified that. He is a businessman. A good one. He realizes that no one should have to work for free.
Me - I just wish that everyone (all Leagues) could get along and fill their niche. Let the people look at what they have to offer (each one has their own special interest for players) and let the players make their choice without all of the rhetoric. That's all I'm saying..:thumbup: Make pool love - not pool war!
Another thing that is included is the money paid in mini-mania. This accounts for a lot of prize money in itself. The other National Championships used to - when I was attending them - hold out some of the prize money collected from mini's. Not 100% payback. Not sure if this is still true or not. I'm not 100% sure about APA but I believe that their mini's pay back 100%. All of the league National Championship posters usually include this prize money. On the BCA poster, they list $750,000 paid out - but have an asterisk by it. Whether they are using the asterisk to indicate that the amount is based on full fields - or whether they are including the money paid in mini's - I'm not sure because I didn't see any explanation for the * next to the prize money. I am sure that Mark can elaborate more on that than I could -
As far as VNEA goes, I haven't seen one of their posters in a while, but the last one that I saw did not reference their payouts - only its' added money, which I believe was $85,000. I used to go to their events each year and had a great time. I believe though, that it does not pay out nearly the amount of money that either APA nor BCA does - again I haven't seen their numbers in a while.
My point is that APA does pay out more than any of the other National Championships. Yes, if all of the math is done it is over $1,500,000. Yes, there is an entry fee attached - just like the others. Some, if not most League Operators also pay that for their teams going out. It is paid by the League Operator in our area for sure. That is a business decision that each league makes for itself. It's their business and up to them to decide, individually.
This thread started out regarding tournament green fees ........ I posted IN SUPPORT of ALL tournament directors and promoters because I feel that *most* people here at the forums cannot begin to comprehend all of the expenses involved in putting on an event this size. Watchez - you probably understand more about this than anyone else here, but there are others who don't. There are expenses that noone - including ME - can even begin to imagine. Times are hard for everyone, every organization and all tournament promoters and directors. I'm just saying that if the rates have gone up, look at the price of everything else - I'm sure you will agree that we all want our cost of living raises to keep up. Whether these green fees are overkill or not, I don't know. I keep thinking about how a tournament director (not to be named here) budgeted $8,000 in diesel costs to run tables to an event last year - but by the time the event got there, the actual cost was more like $15,000!!!! Ouch! It's this type of thing that makes it such a risk. I'm sure that they learned from their mistake and made changes to their contracts, but still - that's a loss of $7,000 revenue on ONE tournament. Just a thought.......
I'm tired of typing - think I'll go back to bed.....
