VNEA Tourney in Vegas has Greens fees

Da Bank...Well he's not on the board now. He is a private individual, who owns a company providing pool tables for independent pool events (he does LOTS of events, not just the VNEA). He is HIRED, as TD, to run the Valley national tournament. BTW, Valley is owned by Brunswick. So, in effect, the VNEA has nothing to do with the tables. Whether the lines are blurred here, or not, doesn't matter to me. :smile:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, certainly you can't believe what you just wrote there.

"the VNEA has nothing to do with the tables."

yet,

"Gary has been a VNEA board member"


Try to give that story to the feds if you are ever accused of insider trading and see what happens.


I personally think that if all the pool during the whole tournament is covered after the green fees that it would be a good deal for me as I'd be playing 10+ hours a day every day.

I think if the VNEA and Gary created an honest figure based on the average sales per team last year that this is obviously a better system.
 
Well the free practice concept has some issues with it, methinks.

1) How are they going to enforce free practice only for the people who have registered for tournaments and hence, paid the green fees? With the quarter/token deal, it didn't matter.

2) What of the guy who registers for several events vs. the guy who only registers for one? The first guy is going to pay a lot more in total greens fees than the second guy - and granted, he'll be playing more as far as matches go, granted - but the second guy could well play as much, if not MORE, than the first guy simply by practicing a lot. (Yeah, it's kinda a minor nitpicky thing, but it's there.)

Perhaps they've considered these things and thought "Eh, no big deal". Besides, there's only so far one can go to try and make things "fair for everyone" and also "block the scumbags who will try and take advantage". :P
 
Gary Benson

Da Bank...Well he's not on the board now. He is a private individual, who owns a company providing pool tables for independent pool events (he does LOTS of events, not just the VNEA). He is HIRED, as TD, to run the Valley national tournament. BTW, Valley is owned by Brunswick. So, in effect, the VNEA has nothing to do with the tables. Whether the lines are blurred here, or not, doesn't matter to me. :smile:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

There is always a lot of talk about great tournament directors, I think Gary is right up there at the top. I realize he has a lot of help out there, but you gotta give him credit. That's quite a task to get all those tables set up, and manage all the stuff out there. I have no problem with him making money off the tourney, but I think the fee is just a bit high. Especially if they don't leave them open all the time for practice.
 
Sam...I agree with you here. It's a thankless job, for the most part (Randyg will agree with me here, I bet), and a TON of work! Most TD's are underpaid (if paid at all), and I bet Gary makes his dough more from the tables than the tournament.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Don't understand

I do not understand why the sanctioning bodies,can not pay for all table time at these big tournaments.as much money as they make through out the year off all of their players,rape the local payouts so their "vegas" nationals can have a good payout,make the players and teams spend a ton of money on the trip to and from vegas,and then have the balls to charge green fees like this.we ran our vnea league operator out of town after we figured out how much he was skimming our payout,and our league has grown every year since,our little league offers teams a chance to win 1,700.00 in 26 weeks of division play and our league championship pays 2300.00 for 1st,only cost 50.00 to enter,and our weekly fees are 6.00 a night, not bad for a 30 team league.
 
I do not understand why the sanctioning bodies,can not pay for all table time at these big tournaments.as much money as they make through out the year off all of their players,rape the local payouts so their "vegas" nationals can have a good payout,make the players and teams spend a ton of money on the trip to and from vegas,and then have the balls to charge green fees like this.we ran our vnea league operator out of town after we figured out how much he was skimming our payout,and our league has grown every year since,our little league offers teams a chance to win 1,700.00 in 26 weeks of division play and our league championship pays 2300.00 for 1st,only cost 50.00 to enter,and our weekly fees are 6.00 a night, not bad for a 30 team league.

HUH?????

Truely you are joking. How many tournaments have you personally ran????..randyg
 
HUH?????

Truely you are joking. How many tournaments have you personally ran????..randyg

Randy- Danny has been the League Operator and Tournament Director for Zim's Rack 8-Ball League and the Gateway Amateur Tour since 2005, when we started both of them. He has ran over 120 tournaments for us in 3.5 years and probably half that before we even started the league and tour.

ALL leagues are great for whatever reasons, but not all leagues are raping the players wallets though. Most "sanctioned" leagues are based on the concept of qualifying for Nationals, which is generally in Vegas. In order to qualify for Nationals, there's rarely any money at the local level, because the weekly dues are thinned out so much for Nationals, Home Office and League Operators... it's NUTS!!!

Danny does know what he's talking about, we've played in the BCA, APA, VNEA and several other smaller indenpendent leagues; have won championships in all of them and have been screwed by all of the league operators and "hcp" systems. That's why we created our own league, for players by players!

I'm not going to get into details about our league system or payouts (if somone wants to know email Danny or myself), but it's pretty damn hard to beat what we have to offer!

Zim
 
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BCA Pool League

BCAPL should NOT be included in the list of the leagues being discussed.

We are different style of league and I take offense in the insinuation that the BCAPL is 'raping the players'. We are NOT a handicap league. You do NOT have to win any kind of championship to go the National championships.

Although every BCAPL operator is free to allocate the prize monies as they see fit-our history shows the average BCAPL league pays out around 75%-85% on the local level!

You are giving out BAD information. The BCAPL does not get ANY part of the weekly fees and our dues are only $10 per year. I think you have done us a great disservice with some of your information.

I will agree that some of the national systems are 'in it for the money' - but the BCAPL is NOT one of them.

Please adjust your post accordingly.

Thank You,

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCA Pool League
 
Everyone in the building will be taking advantage of free practice. No tables to be had. Trust me it is going to be a cluster****

Thats what I am thinking.

The price is way too much irregardless, $35 per a player for singles? Sure you could try to practice, but the tables are going to be packed most of the time.

This is going to blow up in their faces, the VNEA already has a tough time of it compared to the show the BCA puts on, this is most certainly not going to help.
 
BCAPL should NOT be included in the list of the leagues being discussed.

We are different style of league and I take offense in the insinuation that the BCAPL is 'raping the players'. We are NOT a handicap league. You do NOT have to win any kind of championship to go the National championships.

Although every BCAPL operator is free to allocate the prize monies as they see fit-our history shows the average BCAPL league pays out around 75%-85% on the local level!

You are giving out BAD information. The BCAPL does not get ANY part of the weekly fees and our dues are only $10 per year. I think you have done us a great disservice with some of your information.

I will agree that some of the national systems are 'in it for the money' - but the BCAPL is NOT one of them.

Please adjust your post accordingly.

Thank You,

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCA Pool League

Mark-
No corrections necessary in my post! I mentioned the BCA in a list of leagues that we have competed in and won in. No where do I mention any leagues when I'm referring to "raping" the players! Two seperate paragraphs!

Zims Rack 8-Ball League:
Player Membership (per session): $5.00
Player Nightly Fees: $6.00 (5 to payout, 1 to LO)
Team Entry Fee: $50.00 (25 to division awards, 25 to Annual League Championship)
Home Location Fee (per home match): $10.00 (LO expenses)

We offer 3 sessions per year; Winter, Spring & Summer. We do not charge a Team Entry Fee or Player Membership Fee for the Summer Session, it's just to keep players playing and customers in the establishments.
We currently have 33 teams in 3 divisions, each division has it's own payout each session with teams from each division from each session qualifying for the Annual League Championship.

We ARE a HCP'd league with what our players feel is the best HCP System in use anywhere. We are designed for the average-below average player, but not limiting the level of play in our league.

We will grow in time, and as sponsorships come our way and finances grow!

Mark- I am not 100% up to speed on the current BCAPL system and I wish you the best of luck!

Zim
 
I do not understand why the sanctioning bodies,can not pay for all table time at these big tournaments.as much money as they make through out the year off all of their players,rape the local payouts so their "vegas" nationals can have a good payout,make the players and teams spend a ton of money on the trip to and from vegas,and then have the balls to charge green fees like this.we ran our vnea league operator out of town after we figured out how much he was skimming our payout,and our league has grown every year since,our little league offers teams a chance to win 1,700.00 in 26 weeks of division play and our league championship pays 2300.00 for 1st,only cost 50.00 to enter,and our weekly fees are 6.00 a night, not bad for a 30 team league.

For those teams that go to Nationals with APA, they do not pay any *coins* in the tables for their Team Events. The tables are open. They must pay for practice and mini's, etc... but the team event tables are free.
Just one of those things that most people don't realize.

Each league has its' own merits - which is why some people choose one over the other. The National Tournaments are just a small part of that - but everyone *chooses* which league they play in.

It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of man-hours, support, advertising, bookkeeping, insurance etc.... to produce one of these events - no matter which league is hosting it. There are also the travel costs for getting all of the support staff, tournament directors, referees, etc... out there. Housing them is not cheap either. Then lets look at the cost - per table - of getting them out there.......the trucking, the drivers, the mechanics, the insurance, the housing for both directions, etc... then getting them set up, etc.... the list goes on. Oh, feeding all of the support staff - could go on.

Take a bit of time to reflect on the amount of coin these events must have on hand (and where the money comes from to get that coin). For our small 70 or so team events that we have done, we've had to have $10,000 in coin on hand. Out of pocket... take out a loan, however you get it, but you have to have it. That's one reason why we have chosen to charge green fees instead of dealing with coins... we just don't have that kind of cash on hand......then.... what if some of it was stolen?

Just kind of ramblin on here... but my point is that these type of events are not easy or cheap to produce. Yes, there is revenue to be made - but shouldn't there be? I mean, they work tireless days and nights for way more time than the actual event. They are out of pocket usually a hundred thousand or so BEFORE the event..... so they are taking a huge risk and working hard.

I for one, enjoy a well run tournament - as these types of tournaments usually are. If I were doing their job, I would want to get paid - just as you would.

These events are a challenge for the players and a lot of fun to participate in. If they charge greens fees or dollars, make your decision to go or not go and then leave it at that. If you go..... HAVE FUN.....COMPETE HARD. If you don't go, think about where you will be playing next year - which league - or not.

Good Luck to everyone playing in all of the National Championships!
 
For those teams that go to Nationals with APA, they do not pay any *coins* in the tables for their Team Events. The tables are open. They must pay for practice and mini's, etc... but the team event tables are free.
Just one of those things that most people don't realize.

Each league has its' own merits - which is why some people choose one over the other. The National Tournaments are just a small part of that - but everyone *chooses* which league they play in.

It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of man-hours, support, advertising, bookkeeping, insurance etc.... to produce one of these events - no matter which league is hosting it. There are also the travel costs for getting all of the support staff, tournament directors, referees, etc... out there. Housing them is not cheap either. Then lets look at the cost - per table - of getting them out there.......the trucking, the drivers, the mechanics, the insurance, the housing for both directions, etc... then getting them set up, etc.... the list goes on. Oh, feeding all of the support staff - could go on.

Take a bit of time to reflect on the amount of coin these events must have on hand (and where the money comes from to get that coin). For our small 70 or so team events that we have done, we've had to have $10,000 in coin on hand. Out of pocket... take out a loan, however you get it, but you have to have it. That's one reason why we have chosen to charge green fees instead of dealing with coins... we just don't have that kind of cash on hand......then.... what if some of it was stolen?

Just kind of ramblin on here... but my point is that these type of events are not easy or cheap to produce. Yes, there is revenue to be made - but shouldn't there be? I mean, they work tireless days and nights for way more time than the actual event. They are out of pocket usually a hundred thousand or so BEFORE the event..... so they are taking a huge risk and working hard.

I for one, enjoy a well run tournament - as these types of tournaments usually are. If I were doing their job, I would want to get paid - just as you would.

These events are a challenge for the players and a lot of fun to participate in. If they charge greens fees or dollars, make your decision to go or not go and then leave it at that. If you go..... HAVE FUN.....COMPETE HARD. If you don't go, think about where you will be playing next year - which league - or not.

Good Luck to everyone playing in all of the National Championships!

When I was out to the APA nationals a couple years ago we PAID tokens for the team events. Maybe it has changed but i haven't heard that & I can't see the APA giving free tables to anyone. Though I could be wrong as I have not played the APA or been to their nationals in a few years.
 
Sanctioned leagues

My main concern with this post,was to get these league players to thinking about how much money they do not recieve due to sanctioning fees,membership fees,etc. that could otherwise go back in their pocket.

-For example the APA charges players a 25.00 yearly membership and they claim to have 260,000 members,that is 6.5 million dollars,where does it go?

-Another example is Zims APA team got 1st place last session,they had 200.00 in membership fees and over 500.00 in league fees in the session.they only got 135.00 for 1st.what gives?

-Me and Zim show where every dollar goes from our league,to our regional 8 ball tour and we will continue to do so,regardless of how big or small we get.

-That is why we started our league in the 1st place,we would ask a league operator for a spread sheet of where all the fees went and they
either give you the run around or tell you some bs.

-All im saying is that it is time for players to start thinking about where all the money they pay in goes,and I hope and Im sure their are league operators that are not in it solely for the money.

just my 2 cents,Dan
 
Exactly Correct

My main concern with this post,was to get these league players to thinking about how much money they do not recieve due to sanctioning fees,membership fees,etc. that could otherwise go back in their pocket.

-For example the APA charges players a 25.00 yearly membership and they claim to have 260,000 members,that is 6.5 million dollars,where does it go?

-Another example is Zims APA team got 1st place last session,they had 200.00 in membership fees and over 500.00 in league fees in the session.they only got 135.00 for 1st.what gives?

-Me and Zim show where every dollar goes from our league,to our regional 8 ball tour and we will continue to do so,regardless of how big or small we get.

-That is why we started our league in the 1st place,we would ask a league operator for a spread sheet of where all the fees went and they
either give you the run around or tell you some bs.

-All im saying is that it is time for players to start thinking about where all the money they pay in goes,and I hope and Im sure their are league operators that are not in it solely for the money.

just my 2 cents,Dan

Dan,

That is exactly correct. We played the APA for 4 years and finally said ENOUGH. We started a small ACS sanctioned league with only 4 teams to start & gave all the money back to the players. By sanctioning it also gave those who wanted the opportunity to go to Vegas for the nationals without running all over the state to qualify for the bulls***. We paid back double the money in our league with only 4 teams as the APA league did with 8 teams in their division. And I am not saying it is only the APA that takes outrageous fees any of these "fanchise leagues" take plenty. The APA to me sticks out as I think it takes the most.
 
Dan and I are working on a much smaller scale than the larger leagues/tours, but still take money out of our pockets to fund various events and reimburse little by little thru donations, sponsorships, smaller tournaments... plus the pleasure of organizing and offering our players quality and fair events.

Based on the membership numbers that Dan provided for the APA, out of $6.5 million, they can't come up with the expense of the Nationals events? (this is just an example)

What about the sponsorships from the industry, casinos... they don't pay anything? You can't tell me that the APA, as business savy as they are, is trading advertising for advertising with ALL of the sponsors!!! I could be wrong, but not likely on this one!

Isn't EVERYONE (players, league operators, home office, sponsors and host locations) suppose to benefit close to equally? If everyone can benefit a little, then it will takes it's course and grow. If someones not happy, failure is in the future!

Zim
 
I've asked this question before, because I just don't understand. What makes pool leagues any different than any other business? I mean, what is it that requires that pool league operators not make any money.... or not make millions? If the new pool room up the street puts up their cash to build their business and then hits a boom and makes millions, do you go up and demand part of the money that you spent on beers back? What is it that makes it a bad thing for a person to earn money doing the FULL TIME job that they have chosen? I feel as long as the players know what they are playing for - and they then choose to play - then it's okay.

APA has given away over $1,500,000 total prize money at National Championships during each of the last three years. Considerably more than the other National Championships - per their adverstising. All of this with less National Championship participants due to having to prequalify. APA leagues also generally pay for the airfare, hotel, etc... for the most part.... so when someone says... all we got back was $200 or so... let's stop and think about the money spent to send teams to Vegas or other championships also. Each APA League is run differently and indeed more is paid out by some than by others - but each is a separate business and I respect that each is allowed to make as much - or as little - profit as they choose - after all, they are the ones that pay the expenses that are associated with their businesses.

My point is that all leagues are not the same...... choose which one you like and then play in it. If you don't like the way the others are ran, don't play, but WHY trash it? Your view of the league is relevant if others ask - by all means tell them - but you guys act like someone is stealing something from you when all they are doing is running a business. Plain and simple.
 
"Me and Zim show where every dollar goes from our league,to our regional 8 ball tour and we will continue to do so,regardless of how big or small we get."

That's cool for you guys - and I wish you luck..... hope you have some other way to pay your bills. If you are not getting paid to run this league then it is considered your "hobby". When you make it your full time employment (and have no other income) and start running several hundred teams over half the state - let me know when you start running out of expense money and start to pay yourself a salary.;)
 
"Isn't EVERYONE (players, league operators, home office, sponsors and host locations) suppose to benefit close to equally? If everyone can benefit a little, then it will takes it's course and grow. If someones not happy, failure is in the future!"

That would be called a "club" I think.... and that's cool if everyone provides an equal amount of expense money and time. However, when one person has to do all of the work and front all of the expense money.... it becomes something different...... Some leagues are run more like a club.... some are run more like a business.... again, it's the players choice of where to play. Some smaller leagues can offer more "hands on" involvement from the league operators and some bigger leagues (APA, BCA and VNEA) can offer more in the way of the National Championships, regional events, State Championships, etc....
 
When I was out to the APA nationals a couple years ago we PAID tokens for the team events. Maybe it has changed but i haven't heard that & I can't see the APA giving free tables to anyone. Though I could be wrong as I have not played the APA or been to their nationals in a few years.

As to my knowledge for the past 5 years or so.... during the team event - for team matches, the tables are open. No tokens, no coins. The tables have been free for those matches. Like I said - practice and mini's are not open.
 
Eieio59 there is a button on the thread called QUOTE. If you want to reply to a certain msg you can hit it and will pull up the person you want to respond to rather than posting 3 times. Hope that helps in the future.

I had asked about the team table fees at the APA nationals out of curiosity as we had to pay by tokens a few years ago. Are you saying for sure they are not charging for the team events there now.
 
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