Wanted: deflation of custom cue prices!

[icon]

dealers in the past, John Wright in particular, have really helped to get many these top cue makers on the map.

i agree but the internet has made this type of dealer obsolete

The vast majority of consumers being on the net now has helped immensley, too. With only a few exceptions, dealers do not consume a lot of the best cuemaker's orders.

yes, and the percentage of cue makers production going to dealers will continue to decline

Please don't take this personally, but I don't think you know as much about dealing cues as you seem to about supply and demand. Furthermore, I know of no cue dealer that supports himself or his family entierly with sales of custom cues.
Save maybe one in the central part of the US.

remember, his wife does have a job

There just is not much money to be made in it. Most all dealers also are collectors themselves.

Sean

with the internet a lot of business channels have changed and continue to change. i would think as time goes by brokers will become even more dependent on selling previously owned cues as opposed to selling new cues from maker relationships.

 

[skins]

with the internet a lot of business channels have changed and continue to change. i would think as time goes by brokers will become even more dependent on selling previously owned cues as opposed to selling new cues from maker relationships.

good point and to add, we used to trust the opinons of past brokers to point us in the direction of "the best" cuemakers because they were the ones who dealt with them and thier cues on a daily basis. they got to see the asthetics and, if a player, experience the hit (albeit dry hitting of course ). today the brokers are somewhat the same but because of the internet the "collector" has also become more visible and is another "tool" to help those in search of "the best". the internet and sites such as this one have made the masses more aware of the opinions and collections of these, as i would say, "cue professionals" and people will use these new "tools" to a benefit. more people are learning about which cues are sought after and that makes them want them also. more people are after the limited number of cues out there as well as jumping on to the long waiting lists of many cuemakers. just another reason why we won't, nor should we, see cue price deflation anytime in the near future.

 

[The Beginner]

I am just happy that im not a cue collector so i don't have to worry about each individual cue maker in the market...lolz...and to all the collectors...goodluck and happy buying custom cues ..more power to all the cue makers too...HAPPY HOLIDAY TO ALL!!!!

 

[classiccues]

Originally Posted by cueaddicts
dealers in the past, John Wright in particular, have really helped to get many these top cue makers on the map.

Icon: i agree but the internet has made this type of dealer obsolete

IMHO the internet has been a good thing. As the number of cuemakers has increased, cuedealers have increased. The new guys are finding out what Sean and I already know. I do not see cue dealers becoming obsolete at all. In fact like I said, its increased immensely. I will run down my list of dealers off the top of my head, Pool Table Magic, Cueaddicts, Dick Abbott, Don Sherman, Scott Murphey, Cornerstone, Highend, Erik Lee, Spanky, Cosmo, Jesse Nikon, Tony Datlow, Martyne Bachman, Newcues2you?, Indy cues, Chady, Bushwacker, Joe Salizar, Keith Walton, IDcues, Joe Sanko, Hammerhead, Cuesnthings, SusieQ I listed 25 without thinking hard, I bet in the states there might be another 10-20. I am not even going into the world arena, I am just talking stateside. So I don’t think cuedealers are going anywhere.

Icon: yes, and the percentage of cuemaker’s production going to dealers will continue to decline

Before there were cuedealers, the custom cuemaker took the orders. This has never changed. The only time dealers really had the in, was as Sean alluded to, when they helped put the cuemaker on the map. Dealers will always have “ins” but then so do the people of privilege. You think everyone waits 7 years? Or 10? LOL that’s too funny. Dealers will still get there share, because thankfully there is still SOME loyalty to be found.

Icon: “with the internet a lot of business channels have changed and continue to change. i would think as time goes by brokers will become even more dependent on selling previously owned cues as opposed to selling new cues from maker relationships.”

I think 60-70% of most dealer’s sales are of pre-owned. As I have stated before, if you want to move cues, you now have to seriously consider trades. But trading still is an adventure. No dealer is going to take a Schon in trade for a Searing. This is where the internet has helped quite a bit, a person can more easily sell a cue outright, than haggle a trade. Believe me; I appreciate this more than most.

As far as deflating prices, you are seeing it, just some people aren’t as aware of it. Case in point, when a hot cuemakers cools down, the cues steadily decline. But there will always be the cues from certain deceased and a few active cuemakers that will always bring a premium.

Joe

 

[icon]

Originally Posted by cueaddicts
dealers in the past, John Wright in particular, have really helped to get many these top cue makers on the map.

Icon: i agree but the internet has made this type of dealer obsolete

I do not see cue dealers becoming obsolete at all. So I don’t think cuedealers are going anywhere.

joe, i was referring to a cue dealer like john wright as sean described. i never said or implied that dealers in general were becoming obsolete

Icon: yes, and the percentage of cuemaker’s production going to dealers will continue to decline

Before there were cuedealers, the custom cuemaker took the orders. This has never changed. The only time dealers really had the in, was as Sean alluded to, when they helped put the cuemaker on the map. Dealers will always have “ins” but then so do the people of privilege. You think everyone waits 7 years? Or 10? LOL that’s too funny. Dealers will still get there share, because thankfully there is still SOME loyalty to be found.

it has nothing to do with loyalty! it has to with access and information

Icon: “with the internet a lot of business channels have changed and continue to change. i would think as time goes by brokers will become even more dependent on selling previously owned cues as opposed to selling new cues from maker relationships.”

I think 60-70% of most dealer’s sales are of pre-owned. As I have stated before, if you want to move cues, you now have to seriously consider trades. But trading still is an adventure. No dealer is going to take a Schon in trade for a Searing. This is where the internet has helped quite a bit, a person can more easily sell a cue outright, than haggle a trade. Believe me; I appreciate this more than most.

As far as deflating prices, you are seeing it, just some people aren’t as aware of it. Case in point, when a hot cuemakers cools down, the cues steadily decline. But there will always be the cues from certain deceased and a few active cuemakers that will always bring a premium.

so you no longer think "95% of cue prices are ridiculous" or "i think most cues are over priced" or "i think cue prices are funny" like you posted yesterday?

Joe

btw i'm not sure, but i believe the retail on that new barry listed on marks site is about $2500. if barry already has about 10 years worth of orders - using your formula ($2500)+(10*100) the asking price should be $3500 for the low range and ($2500)+(10*150) = $4000 for the high.
so either your formula or the listed price is way off.

 

[classiccues]

joe, i was referring to a cue dealer like john wright as sean described. i never said or implied that dealers in general were becoming obsolete:

Then you have me confused. Like John Wright in what way? John did what everyone did. Took photos, sent them out.. did consignments.. So unless you are aware of something I am not. Did you know Joel Hercek was a dealer at one time?

it has nothing to do with loyalty! it has to with access and information:

In what way? If a cuemaker has a 2/5 or 7 year wait, the information and access is irrelevent. As far as the secondary market, you might find more available in general. Maybe now you have instant access to 5 dealers and 5 from the general populous. Which is a great thing.

so you no longer think "95% of cue prices are ridiculous" or "i think most cues are over priced" or "i think cue prices are funny" like you posted yesterday

Nope I still think that. Thats has nothing to do with what I said.

btw i'm not sure, but i believe the retail on that new barry listed on marks site is about $2500. if barry already has about 10 years worth of orders - using your formula ($2500)+(10*100) the asking price should be $3500 for the low range and ($2500)+(10*150) = $4000 for the high.
so either your formula or the listed price is way off.

I don't know the retail on that Barry.. but I heard that his basic cue was 2000but I cannot confirm this. Using that formula for a Barry, since he is not taking orders, the value can be construed as either an infinite number, or the base adder could be 100/150 or 250/300. Doesn't matter does it? Now add the multiplier for an unused, mint in box example. I also said you can ask whatever you want, whatever the market will bare.

Joe

 

[icon]

Then you have me confused. Like John Wright in what way? John did what everyone did. Took photos, sent them out.. did consignments.. So unless you are aware of something I am not. Did you know Joel Hercek was a dealer at one time?

pre internet if someone wanted to know about a cue they called john wright! he was the hub of the cue world. like sean mentioned he could get put a cue maker on the map.
with the internet, information is available to everyone and spreads a lot quicker. there is no longer a need for a single hub to disperse information and no broker has the clout that john wright had in his day.

yes, i was aware that joel was a broker at one time and that for a time he worked with mark. why do you ask?

In what way? If a cuemaker has a 2/5 or 7 year wait, the information and access is irrelevent. As far as the secondary market, you might find more available in general. Maybe now you have instant access to 5 dealers and 5 from the general populous. Which is a great thing.

i wasnt referring to makers with lengthy wait lists. but as a cue makers wait list gets longer what purpose would it serve to sell at a discount to a broker?

Nope I still think that. Thats has nothing to do with what I said.

suit yourself

I don't know the retail on that Barry.. but I heard that his basic cue was 2000but I cannot confirm this. Using that formula for a Barry, since he is not taking orders, the value can be construed as either an infinite number, or the base adder could be 100/150 or 250/300. Doesn't matter does it? Now add the multiplier for an unused, mint in box example. I also said you can ask whatever you want, whatever the market will bare.

Joe

i couldnt agree more! $6850 for a $2500 barry on the secondary market is extremely fair!
in fact i dont think you are asking enough! maybe you should go to $7850?

 

[pbat2751]

I'm happy with what I paid for my custom cue!

I'll second that...

Remember your buying a functional piece of art. Your either willing to pay the $ or move on.

 

[classiccues]

Icon: "pre internet if someone wanted to know about a cue they called john wright! he was the hub of the cue world. like sean mentioned he could get put a cue maker on the map. with the internet, information is available to everyone and spreads a lot quicker. there is no longer a need for a single hub to disperse information and no broker has the clout that john wright had in his day."

I agree with the internet being able to spread the word in a lot quicker fashion. But I don't believe it immediately gives a new cuemaker a waiting list. New cuemakers don't get flooded with orders because of the internet. Do you buy cues from guys that just "pop" up out of nowhere? They still have to in a sense pay their dues, sometimes a new cuemaker can get a little lift hooking up with a dealer.

"Icon: yes, i was aware that joel was a broker at one time and that for a time he worked with mark. why do you ask?"

Just curious...

"Icon: i wasnt referring to makers with lengthy wait lists. but as a cue makers wait list gets longer what purpose would it serve to sell at a discount to a broker?"

This is where I refered to loyalty. If a guy puts you on the scene and takes the chance, you need to take care of that guy. The dealer took care of the cuemaker when he had no customers, or didn't have the amount he had previously. Using the internet a cuemaker may ultimately reach that goal, but it still could take time. Especially now with the amount of cuemakers there are.

Icon:i couldnt agree more! $6850 for a $2500 barry on the secondary market is extremely fair!in fact i dont think you are asking enough! maybe you should go to $7850?

Well Jeff since I knew you were chomping at the bit to comment on the price of this cue, I will say this. Its what the market is at right now, comments like this are why other dealers, won't put prices on their websites. You of all people should be happy, think of what it makes your cues...

Joe

 

[icon]

Icon: "pre internet if someone wanted to know about a cue they called john wright! he was the hub of the cue world. like sean mentioned he could get put a cue maker on the map. with the internet, information is available to everyone and spreads a lot quicker. there is no longer a need for a single hub to disperse information and no broker has the clout that john wright had in his day."

I agree with the internet being able to spread the word in a lot quicker fashion. But I don't believe it immediately gives a new cuemaker a waiting list. New cuemakers don't get flooded with orders because of the internet. Do you buy cues from guys that just "pop" up out of nowhere? They still have to in a sense pay their dues, sometimes a new cuemaker can get a little lift hooking up with a dealer.

joe, i didnt say the internet immediately gave a cuemaker a waiting list or that they get flooded with orders. sure, sometimes a new cue maker can get a lift from hooking up with a dealer.

"Icon: yes, i was aware that joel was a broker at one time and that for a time he worked with mark. why do you ask?"

Just curious...

joe, you know what they say about curiosity! hope you don't have any cute little kittens!

"Icon: i wasnt referring to makers with lengthy wait lists. but as a cue makers wait list gets longer what purpose would it serve to sell at a discount to a broker?"

This is where I refered to loyalty. If a guy puts you on the scene and takes the chance, you need to take care of that guy. The dealer took care of the cuemaker when he had no customers, or didn't have the amount he had previously. Using the internet a cuemaker may ultimately reach that goal, but it still could take time. Especially now with the amount of cuemakers there are.

joe, this is a nice sentiment! but in the real business world peoples loyalties are always ultimately to themselves.

Icon:i couldnt agree more! $6850 for a $2500 barry on the secondary market is extremely fair!in fact i dont think you are asking enough! maybe you should go to $7850?

Well Jeff since I knew you were chomping at the bit to comment on the price of this cue, I will say this. Its what the market is at right now, comments like this are why other dealers, won't put prices on their websites. You of all people should be happy, think of what it makes your cues...

Joe

joe, if you look back at your thread "new cues up...." post #14 i was the second person to defend your price and your right to price it as you see fit. but after you mocked your own price i felt kind of silly trying to defend someone that doesnt even believe in his own price. and then you gave a formula which i just used to come up with a value. i was never "chomping at the bit to comment on the price" but was chomping at the bit to comment on you appearently not standing behind marks pricing of a cue you were trying to sell.

 

[classiccues]

Icon: "joe, this is a nice sentiment! but in the real business world peoples loyalties are always ultimately to themselves."

This unfortunately as I have found out is very true.

Icon: "joe, if you look back at your thread "new cues up...." post #14 i was the second person to defend your price and your right to price it as you see fit. but after you mocked your own price i felt kind of silly trying to defend someone that doesnt even believe in his own price. and then you gave a formula which i just used to come up with a value. i was never "chomping at the bit to comment on the price" but was chomping at the bit to comment on you appearently not standing behind marks pricing of a cue you were trying to sell."

I never mocked my own price. I just said generally speaking cue prices are out of whack. I totally stand behind Marks price, I don't have to agree with the market though...

Joe

 

[SPINTHEBALL]

Joe, what's your thoughts on the 360?

 

[classiccues]

Joe, what's your thoughts on the 360?

The one on Ebay? The joint doesn't look original and who knows what that wrap is. If you are looking for a project, maybe its the right cue. Then the arguement will be who do you use for resto? I would use Rubino..

Joe

 

[pathman]

My retort

Complete disagreement. As I see it, dealers in the past, John Wright in particular, have really helped to get many these top cue makers on the map. The vast majority of consumers being on the net now has helped immensley, too. With only a few exceptions, dealers do not consume a lot of the best cuemaker's orders.

Please don't take this personally, but I don't think you know as much about dealing cues as you seem to about supply and demand. Furthermore, I know of no cue dealer that supports himself or his family entierly with sales of custom cues. Save maybe one in the central part of the US. There just is not much money to be made in it. Most all dealers also are collectors themselves.

Sean

I think you guys are by far the easiest to deal with out of all the brokers I've encountered, and I do believe that you're crew and the guys at classicues are honest to goodness collectors and appreciate the cues. However, I think you are in the minority of cue brokers. I don't mean to slam anyone for making a buck, but I think the whole idea of custom cues consists of a customer and builder agreeing on the specifics and pricing of a cue. I do have a problem with the inconsistent pricing between builder and dealer and the fact that a lot of dealers seek to always consider what you have junk and what they have somehow better and special. At the end of the day, my hat is off to anyone who can make money in this racket and I appreciate all the dealers at the shows, they provide me with a great deal of entertainment.

 

[classiccues]

I think you guys are by far the easiest to deal with out of all the brokers I've encountered, and I do believe that you're crew and the guys at classicues are honest to goodness collectors and appreciate the cues. However, I think you are in the minority of cue brokers. I don't mean to slam anyone for making a buck, but I think the whole idea of custom cues consists of a customer and builder agreeing on the specifics and pricing of a cue. I do have a problem with the inconsistent pricing between builder and dealer and the fact that a lot of dealers seek to always consider what you have junk and what they have somehow better and special. At the end of the day, my hat is off to anyone who can make money in this racket and I appreciate all the dealers at the shows, they provide me with a great deal of entertainment.

Thanks for the kind words. As far as trading / dealing thats a whole 'nother thread. Because as I am sure Sean will agree, the flip side is we see some customers wanting to get full boat on used cues, (which they are allowed to try and get) and cues we cannot move. One of the hardest things to try and tell people is "hey, its a nice cue, but there is limited market" which by the way is the reason that person is trying to trade out of it.

Joe

 

[cueaddicts]

i couldnt agree more! $6850 for a $2500 barry on the secondary market is extremely fair!
in fact i dont think you are asking enough! maybe you should go to $7850?

It looks like this particular cue example is a moot point....it looks to already have a sale pending.

Once again, fair or not, what the customer is willing to pay is the determining factor. Since this cue sold so quickly, it could be argued that Mark may not have been asking quite enough.....

Sean

 

[bruin70]

Wanted: deflation of custom cue prices!

at some point, the asian market bubble will pop.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

If you spend any time at a pool hall you will find a vast assortment of quality used cues at unbeatable prices, especially when players lose a bankroll, quit pool, decide they need a new cue NOW, fall on hard times and need to get a couple hundred bucks for their Joss West, ect. Of course this method takes patience.

 

[manwon]

Inflated Custom Cue Market

Hello, out there after reading many of the posts I have come to a conclusion concerning this topic. The main problem is not inflation it is however, to many so called cue makers. Today, anyone can buy a CNC machine and make low quality cues from substandard materials and dump them on ebay. If eBay is your main market you more than likely have problems. First, you can never get what you feel you deserve for your work, due to the nits who shop there looking for bargains. Second, these same nits do not know in most cases the difference between the Asian crap and true custom cues anyway, so unless cue makers want to give their work away or unless they know that the quality is poor they would not sell it on ebay. Last there is only one way to purchase a true custom or collectors cue. First research the cue maker, second find a dealer selling his cues and try them out, and last expect to pay for quality, but if you want junk or asian Crap or deffective items shop ebay then you will get what you deserve.

 

[WilleeCue]

Hello, out there after reading many of the posts I have come to a conclusion concerning this topic. The main problem is not inflation it is however, to many so called cue makers. Today, anyone can buy a CNC machine and make low quality cues from substandard materials and dump them on ebay. If eBay is your main market you more than likely have problems. First, you can never get what you feel you deserve for your work, due to the nits who shop there looking for bargains. Second, these same nits do not know in most cases the difference between the Asian crap and true custom cues anyway, so unless cue makers want to give their work away or unless they know that the quality is poor they would not sell it on ebay. Last there is only one way to purchase a true custom or collectors cue. First research the cue maker, second find a dealer selling his cues and try them out, and last expect to pay for quality, but if you want junk or asian Crap or deffective items shop ebay then you will get what you deserve.

Well said.