Warm up strokes
- Thread starter nelldrake
- Start date
I would suggest that you have yourself taped when you don'
t know it is happening. If you know it, your conscious mind is going to influence the routine you want to observe.
t know it is happening. If you know it, your conscious mind is going to influence the routine you want to observe.
Let's make this clear. I'm not talking about changing your warmup process on every shot. This is about adapting to what you have to physically accomplish at the table, which the pros do very well. They are master adapters. That's all I'm saying here, and I am really shocked to find that there is even a debate about it.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe we have different definitions of what warmup strokes are supposed to accomplish for a player. Perhaps you think it's only about your eyes and aim. I don't know. Just guessing. For me and based on my observations of top players, it's more than that. Warmup strokes also help a player to calibrate his touch for the upcoming shot. Sorry, but that part is often a conscious process and very necessary, particularly on touchy shots. A touch standing still feels different than a touch in motion, and for most (or maybe all) players as far as I can tell, it's vitally important to find it in motion before you strike the cb on certain shots. That's just one example of many many different types of situations. I have no problem explaining it to my clients and they seem to have no problem understanding it. So, I'm not sure why this is thought of as being so difficult or unnecessary to teach.
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I gotta go with the instructors. How many times has someone asked "How do I stay at a consistent level?" or " How do the great players play so well without practice or after long layoffs?" or I played great last week and I stink this week. How come?"
To be consistent you need to get rid of the variables.
or simply
To be consistent you need to be consistent.
To be consistent you need to get rid of the variables.
or simply
To be consistent you need to be consistent.
Fran...It's just two different schools of thought. MOST players have no desire to become a pro (or to try and copy what "they" do). You teach what "the pros do" (some of them)...we teach what the millions of poolplayers out there want to learn...how to become more consistent, to improve their own games. There is really no debate. You teach "old school" techniques...we teach "new school" techniques. There's certainly room for both. Which one works better is in the eye of the beholder.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Oh OK, I get it now. And here I was thinking I was being progressive. Instead, I'm just being "Old School." Got it. Thanks.
Fran Crimi,
BCA Master Instructor
Former WPBA touring pro
(This is for the poster who wrote that he was going to have to go with the instructors.
Oh OK, I get it now. And here I was thinking I was being progressive. Instead, I'm just being "Old School." Got it. Thanks.
Fran Crimi,
BCA Master Instructor
Former WPBA touring pro
(This is for the poster who wrote that he was going to have to go with the instructors.
Fran
I didn't mean any disrespect and frankly wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that.
All I was meaning to say is if there's too many variables from day to day or week or month then its really hard to figure which one(s) is a cause for trouble/inconsistency.
I'm not an instructor but it seems to me teaching a novice stricter rules apply while personal style being accepted as the player progresses. I don't think anybody would try to tell Efren to change to a pendulum for instance. And by the same token there's probably not many instructors the recommend the pump.
No offense taken. I thought it was cute. I happen to be online a lot lately doing some work so I'm frequenting the site often lately and I must say it's been a learning experience.
About variables --- sure, too many can become troublesome --- No doubt about it. However, there are some that we perhaps should consider as important and even necessary to leave in our games. Is there anybody you know who takes the exact same number of warmup strokes before every shot? Of course not.
The next question you have to ask is, well, if they don't, then are they doing a bad thing when they change it up? The answer I think, is sometimes yes, if it's for the wrong reason. I think that this is what guys like Randy and Scott are trying to get players to avoid.
But often times, no, the changeup is not for the wrong reason. I think it's important for us to recognize this fact. I believe that players can learn to be consistent without having to try to train themselves to act in a robotic fashion, because the 'human' part of us isn't always a bad thing and shouldn't be perceived that way.
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(disclaimer: not an instructor)
In several of his books, Phil Capelle teaches a variable warmup routine--recommending that one shoots only when the "green light" goes off in your head. I have been doing this for a couple of years, and sometimes the green light goes off after 2-3 strokes, sometimes 6-7. While I think it really helps me hone in on the precise OB contact point or stroke speed, I found that I spent all of my "extra" strokes focusing on the OB and often end up putting unintended english on the CB. When I discovered this and tried to correct it by switching my eye pattern back and forth a couple of more times, it really ruined my rhythm.
I'm currently switching to a strictly 3.5 strokes (1.5 while eye on CB, 2 on OB) followed by SPF routine, in an effort to really solidify the eye pattern. I feel that once it's ingrained, spending an extra stroke here or there probably wouldn't hurt much. I would very much appreciate any comments/feedbacks on these efforts.
By the way, Jasmin Ouschan is another pro who has a strict, 3-stroke warmup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QumQ7JsduuA&feature=related
In several of his books, Phil Capelle teaches a variable warmup routine--recommending that one shoots only when the "green light" goes off in your head. I have been doing this for a couple of years, and sometimes the green light goes off after 2-3 strokes, sometimes 6-7. While I think it really helps me hone in on the precise OB contact point or stroke speed, I found that I spent all of my "extra" strokes focusing on the OB and often end up putting unintended english on the CB. When I discovered this and tried to correct it by switching my eye pattern back and forth a couple of more times, it really ruined my rhythm.
I'm currently switching to a strictly 3.5 strokes (1.5 while eye on CB, 2 on OB) followed by SPF routine, in an effort to really solidify the eye pattern. I feel that once it's ingrained, spending an extra stroke here or there probably wouldn't hurt much. I would very much appreciate any comments/feedbacks on these efforts.
By the way, Jasmin Ouschan is another pro who has a strict, 3-stroke warmup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QumQ7JsduuA&feature=related
Hi all,
if i have a student, who s more kind of a beginner-or perhaps also a good shooter (but without any psr) i prefer to start burnin in a psr. This can be with drills like the motherdrills or similar practice-drills. Right on the beginning i ll explain him why and how etc- and he decides how many pre-strokes would be comfortable for him. (further more explaining him what is needful and what would be a no go, if he would decide for too many pre-strokes f.e). During this explanation i ll also ever explain him about this "point-of-no-return"-- from my experience that is very often the key, where students are beginning to understand about the need of a pre-shot-routine. And until now it has been a good way to teach. So here i think, all of "us" are in common.
The point Fan Crimi shown up a bit earlier i also like (about pro s etc)- but how Scott or also RandyG are praying a lot:Each is individual. Usualy, if you re working with a far experienced player, you need to be also more kind of psychologist- They usualy have created rituals over the years- and if they ve reached some little successes or tournament wins, they re sometimes a bit resistent. And if they then have reached the point, where they re not increasing anymore....real hard work for both sides begins (instructor and student). I m no friend of acting like a "Dictator"- i always try to explain why and how-but with far experienced players it can be different in my opinion. Just now i have an example-- the player already shot really great high-runs (near 100 in straight) and he s really a good shotmaker. But when i started to help him via internet/webcam he presented unbelievable bad habits-and bad fundamentals.
In his way the key was to show him, that he can just increase, if he s getting rid of some really bad habits, because they ruin every idea of executing a repeatable stroke including hitting the cueball permanently there, where he was aiming for. (still unbelievable for me, that he was able to hit sometimes so many balls).
He understood after a while, why it is important to work out a PSR-especially for him, in his case, bc he had to start new, and burn it in, until it s bulletproofed- so that he has not to think about it anymore.
it s 3 weeks ago now-and he made amazing big steps forward. Including a PSR with 3 pre-strokes- on extreme hard shots maye 4-but it s funny, that he often *stops* and get back from the table then (point of no return) bc it felt already strange for him(think just this 1 more stroke is forcing him to be too long down for the shot) -and makes me grin sometimes^^. Just showing, that he already burned in this thing. I don t care if a player is using perhaps 1 more pre-stroke on a very important shot under pressure. (don t make sense for me at all-but if it helps him...)
Felt a bit off-topic-sorry for that. I just wanted to bring on the point again, that every is so individual, that it is not really (in my opinion) doable, to teach each player the same way. Sometimes you have to be tricky.
The biggest problems are to solve first: that the student believes you! and that he has the absolute willing! And that he has to do structured practice-sessions with a goal!
Without these 3 things each session is senseless.
lg from overseas- and hope the english was not too low (and maybe a bit offtopic).
lg
Ingo
if i have a student, who s more kind of a beginner-or perhaps also a good shooter (but without any psr) i prefer to start burnin in a psr. This can be with drills like the motherdrills or similar practice-drills. Right on the beginning i ll explain him why and how etc- and he decides how many pre-strokes would be comfortable for him. (further more explaining him what is needful and what would be a no go, if he would decide for too many pre-strokes f.e). During this explanation i ll also ever explain him about this "point-of-no-return"-- from my experience that is very often the key, where students are beginning to understand about the need of a pre-shot-routine. And until now it has been a good way to teach. So here i think, all of "us" are in common.
The point Fan Crimi shown up a bit earlier i also like (about pro s etc)- but how Scott or also RandyG are praying a lot:Each is individual. Usualy, if you re working with a far experienced player, you need to be also more kind of psychologist- They usualy have created rituals over the years- and if they ve reached some little successes or tournament wins, they re sometimes a bit resistent. And if they then have reached the point, where they re not increasing anymore....real hard work for both sides begins (instructor and student). I m no friend of acting like a "Dictator"- i always try to explain why and how-but with far experienced players it can be different in my opinion. Just now i have an example-- the player already shot really great high-runs (near 100 in straight) and he s really a good shotmaker. But when i started to help him via internet/webcam he presented unbelievable bad habits-and bad fundamentals.
In his way the key was to show him, that he can just increase, if he s getting rid of some really bad habits, because they ruin every idea of executing a repeatable stroke including hitting the cueball permanently there, where he was aiming for. (still unbelievable for me, that he was able to hit sometimes so many balls).
He understood after a while, why it is important to work out a PSR-especially for him, in his case, bc he had to start new, and burn it in, until it s bulletproofed- so that he has not to think about it anymore.
it s 3 weeks ago now-and he made amazing big steps forward. Including a PSR with 3 pre-strokes- on extreme hard shots maye 4-but it s funny, that he often *stops* and get back from the table then (point of no return) bc it felt already strange for him(think just this 1 more stroke is forcing him to be too long down for the shot) -and makes me grin sometimes^^. Just showing, that he already burned in this thing. I don t care if a player is using perhaps 1 more pre-stroke on a very important shot under pressure. (don t make sense for me at all-but if it helps him...)
Felt a bit off-topic-sorry for that. I just wanted to bring on the point again, that every is so individual, that it is not really (in my opinion) doable, to teach each player the same way. Sometimes you have to be tricky.
The biggest problems are to solve first: that the student believes you! and that he has the absolute willing! And that he has to do structured practice-sessions with a goal!
Without these 3 things each session is senseless.
lg from overseas- and hope the english was not too low (and maybe a bit offtopic).
lg
Ingo
Hi lg....Nice post. I agree.... Pre shot routine is very important. I like to study other sports too, like golf and tennis. It sounds like you do too.
I noticed that when a pro golfer's ball lands in tall grass, we usually see him take a few extra practice swings in that grass (away from his ball, of course). It helps him get the feel for what he has to do with that shot.
I noticed that when a pro golfer's ball lands in tall grass, we usually see him take a few extra practice swings in that grass (away from his ball, of course). It helps him get the feel for what he has to do with that shot.
This has been an interesting discussion and I have just one more thing to add to it.
I have always liked the idea of having a completely set routine, including the same number of warm-up strokes. However, in my previous post I mentioned that I couldn't get past hearing my voice counting to me on every shot. So I gave up on the idea.
Well, I have been thinking about this the past couple of days and it dawned on me that I was maybe doing this wrong. Maybe instead of counting to myself 1....2....3.....4......shoot, I should have tried something more rhythmic like dunt....dunt.....dunt....dunt.......shoot. The "dunt" is supposed to be like a musical sound if you catch my drift. So instead of counting you are just sort of doing beats.
My thinking on this is I don't want the analytical part of my brain engaged while I'm down on the shot. For me, the counting seemed to awaken that portion of my brain. I think it is best to do my thinking while I'm standing. When I enter my PSR I would like the more creative portion of my brain to take over.
So now I'm back on the fence. I may just leave well enough alone or I may give the set number of warm-up stokes another try.
***I watched that Jasmin clip and she definitely uses 3 warm-up strokes every time. I still think it is a small minority of top players that use this approach. q1
I have always liked the idea of having a completely set routine, including the same number of warm-up strokes. However, in my previous post I mentioned that I couldn't get past hearing my voice counting to me on every shot. So I gave up on the idea.
Well, I have been thinking about this the past couple of days and it dawned on me that I was maybe doing this wrong. Maybe instead of counting to myself 1....2....3.....4......shoot, I should have tried something more rhythmic like dunt....dunt.....dunt....dunt.......shoot. The "dunt" is supposed to be like a musical sound if you catch my drift. So instead of counting you are just sort of doing beats.
My thinking on this is I don't want the analytical part of my brain engaged while I'm down on the shot. For me, the counting seemed to awaken that portion of my brain. I think it is best to do my thinking while I'm standing. When I enter my PSR I would like the more creative portion of my brain to take over.
So now I'm back on the fence. I may just leave well enough alone or I may give the set number of warm-up stokes another try.
***I watched that Jasmin clip and she definitely uses 3 warm-up strokes every time. I still think it is a small minority of top players that use this approach. q1
You would make a good teacher. I think your post shows that you are very observant. Regarding your warmup strokes, you might want to try this:
1. Make sure you've answered all the questions you're supposed to answer while you're standing.
2. If you find that a particular shot is tricky and that you require additional warmup strokes, think of doing those additional strokes first to calibrate whatever 'feel' you are looking for, and then settle down into your normal rhythm pattern of strokes. This way, you will do your calibrating first, followed by your normal eye movement and stroke timing pattern.
Well now Fran...We can agree on this post. You absolutely must make all shooting decisions standing up. Once your bridge hand hits the table, we don't call those extra strokes warmups. Randy calls it 'fiddling'...I call it moving your cue while you confirm your aim. Once you're "done" fiddling or aiming, the real warm up cycle begins. That cycle, whatever it is (1, 2, 3 strokes...whatever) still, in our opinion should remain consistent...although it may be repeated in several increments (with a stop after each cycle to let your brain 'decide' if it's "right" or not), on difficult shots. Sorry if I got your 'dander' up!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Oh OK, I get it now. And here I was thinking I was being progressive. Instead, I'm just being "Old School." Got it. Thanks.
Fran Crimi,
BCA Master Instructor
Former WPBA touring pro
(This is for the poster who wrote that he was going to have to go with the instructors.
Did you play on any TV tables?
Well now Fran...We can agree on this post. You absolutely must make all shooting decisions standing up. Once your bridge hand hits the table, we don't call those extra strokes warmups. Randy calls it 'fiddling'...I call it moving your cue while you confirm your aim. Once you're "done" fiddling or aiming, the real warm up cycle begins. That cycle, whatever it is (1, 2, 3 strokes...whatever) still, in our opinion should remain consistent...although it may be repeated in several increments (with a stop after each cycle to let your brain 'decide' if it's "right" or not), on difficult shots. Sorry if I got your 'dander' up!
Thanks Fran and Scott, these comments are very reassuring! Especially since I found myself, after a month of working on the consistent routine, naturally doing exactly the same calibrating/fiddling/movement aiming before a set routine at my league last night!