Warped butts and ivory joints

G

gtaylor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey guys

Gotta few questions for you if you could so indulge.

I have had a bunch of cues were the butts have warped on me. All are under 3 yrs old. Constructions are different obviously and are all done by TOP name cue makers. Some are worse than other but all have the joints coming off the table in some form. Some are very severe and some barely noticeable.

This said - is this typical or is it just a point where the cues are being cut too fast and to heavily. Also, are the cues that are laminated butts (like carmelli) less prone to this?

Finally, and a very big point. Is that I have a few homes around the country and I am curious if moving from East coast, to the south, to the desert of AZ if these climate changes really mess with the cues.


As for the joints. I have had a few ivory joints with cracks even while just sitting in the case. Cues have been test hit by potential buyers but always in my presence. Cues never broken with and shafts are still BRIGHT white, no sessions played on them. Still, cracked joints.


Thoughts? and any potential warranty / "fix it free" possibilities?


Greg
 
gtaylor said:
Hey guys

Gotta few questions for you if you could so indulge.

I have had a bunch of cues were the butts have warped on me. All are under 3 yrs old. Constructions are different obviously and are all done by TOP name cue makers. Some are worse than other but all have the joints coming off the table in some form. Some are very severe and some barely noticeable.

This said - is this typical or is it just a point where the cues are being cut too fast and to heavily. Also, are the cues that are laminated butts (like carmelli) less prone to this?

Finally, and a very big point. Is that I have a few homes around the country and I am curious if moving from East coast, to the south, to the desert of AZ if these climate changes really mess with the cues.


As for the joints. I have had a few ivory joints with cracks even while just sitting in the case. Cues have been test hit by potential buyers but always in my presence. Cues never broken with and shafts are still BRIGHT white, no sessions played on them. Still, cracked joints.


Thoughts? and any potential warranty / "fix it free" possibilities?


Greg
Click to expand...

Sounds very much that the problems you are having is not the cues nor materials fault but rather the climate and atmosphere were they are being kept. Cues really need a very stable atmosphere to stay stable. They should be protected from swings in temperature and humidity. I don't know where you live but it sounds as though the cues are being stored in a very dry place like Los Vegas. This would cause the ivory joint to crack while just sitting in a closet.

Better made cues are not suddenly being made with short cuts that would cause your cues to develop faults. One cue, maybe, a number from different mfg is a sure sign that the problem lies elsewhere.

Dick
 
Dick,

I think you are right...most of the issues i have had have been in AZ or in Denver. Both are rather dry
 
Due to some part it is the cue makers construction, I work with Ariel Carmeli, we do a lot of repairs, we have seen cues from nearly every maker come through the shop, It is very surprising how many cues from certain makers are not straight, the ivory problem is due to climate, most cue makers can not guarantee the ivory because of climate changes, but as for the butts warping as long as you purchased directly from the maker, each cue maker is different but I have heard of some that will fix the problem or replace the cue, not all cue makers will respond that way, but these cue makers that make right and stand by there product are the ones that you would be wanting to do continued business with.
 
Hi,

Ivory joints are always a crap shoot the way I see it. People get it into their minds that they want them even after being told they can crack. All feed back to a player is all about the density of the material. Ivory does not have a magical effect. It has grain and that's where cracks occur.

Ivory ferrules on the other hand are not as problematic as I see it from my experience. I think because there is less grain in the smaller dia and the fiber pads.

As far as butts warping, coring the cue parts defiantly helps and A Joint cues with wraps do much better with laminated handles IMO. Fully cored cues built on a laninated dowels stay very straight from my experience.

Rick
 
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gtaylor said:
Hey guys

Gotta few questions for you if you could so indulge.

I have had a bunch of cues were the butts have warped on me. All are under 3 yrs old. Constructions are different obviously and are all done by TOP name cue makers. Some are worse than other but all have the joints coming off the table in some form. Some are very severe and some barely noticeable.

This said - is this typical or is it just a point where the cues are being cut too fast and to heavily. Also, are the cues that are laminated butts (like carmelli) less prone to this?

Finally, and a very big point. Is that I have a few homes around the country and I am curious if moving from East coast, to the south, to the desert of AZ if these climate changes really mess with the cues.


As for the joints. I have had a few ivory joints with cracks even while just sitting in the case. Cues have been test hit by potential buyers but always in my presence. Cues never broken with and shafts are still BRIGHT white, no sessions played on them. Still, cracked joints.


Thoughts? and any potential warranty / "fix it free" possibilities?


Greg
Click to expand...

Buy a humidifier . Store those cues at 45% humidity. You might be shocked when suddenly they no longer have a warp.
Years ago a cue made by my mentor warped coming from Singapore to New Mexico. It was sent to him. When the cue got to the shop, it straightened out after a few days . Later I saw the same cue after it was resold. The cue was then owned by a decent one-pocket player in San Francisco . I checked the cue . It was dead straight . The owner loved the cue and would not let it for the world.
Call those makers whose cues warped. Let them know. Ask them why they don't use laminated coring dowels .
I've had a few of those laminated dowels. I sold all of them. They had a muffy sound to me.
Laminated dowels are not the answer to bad or unseasoned wood all the time.
One piece full length core is not the answer to a bad jointed cues all the time .
Tad cues have been around for decades . They are still known to be straight.
I don't know of any other name with full core laminate cue that has a better reputation than Tad's cues. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I fail to understand how plywood maple that is about 3/4 to 7/8 in diameter is more stable than a good one piece maple handle. Unless that maple handle shouldn't have made it to the cue . If you can't trust your maple handle to stay straight, how do you trust your maple shaft to stay straight ? It is after all a lot thinner AND longer . Switch to laminated maple shaft too ? Why not ?

Also, there is no bible out there that says you have to use maple under the wrap ALL the time . There are plenty of alternatives . Some might actually match better with some wood used in the forearm.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Buy a humidifier . Store those cues at 45% humidity. You might be shocked when suddenly they no longer have a warp.
Years ago a cue made by my mentor warped coming from Singapore to New Mexico. It was sent to him. When the cue got to the shop, it straightened out after a few days . Later I saw the same cue after it was resold. The cue was then owned by a decent one-pocket player in San Francisco . I checked the cue . It was dead straight . The owner named loved the cue and would not let it for the world.
Call those makers whose cues warped. Let them know. Ask them why they don't use laminated coring dowels .
I've had a few of those laminated dowels. I sold all of them. They had a muffy sound to me.
Laminated dowels are not the answer to bad or unseasoned wood all the time.
One piece full length core is not the answer to a bad jointed cues all the time .
Tad cues have been around for decades . They are still known to be straight.
I don't know of any other name with full core laminate cue that has a better reputation than Tad's cues. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I fail to understand how plywood maple that is about 3/4 to 7/8 in diameter is more stable than a good one piece maple handle. Unless that maple handle shouldn't have made it to the cue . If you can't trust your maple handle to stay straight, how do you trust your maple shaft to stay straight ? It is after all a lot thinner AND longer . Switch to laminated maple shaft too ? Why not ?

Also, there is no bible out there that says you have to use maple under the wrap ALL the time . There are plenty of alternatives . Some might actually match better with some wood used in the forearm.
Click to expand...

Joe,

We all know that maple can move. Experienced cue makers that use laminated maple handles understand they are very stable more so than plain straight grained.

From my experience full coring with the lams produces a cue that stays straight. Gluing with expansion poly a tube to a straight turned laminated rod makes one hell of a stable structure.

If you buy kiln dried wood let it accilmate to your shop a couple of weeks or so you are good to go. Baby sitting wood and taking cuts on it over long periods of time is something I do care to participate in. Even when you do everything correctly they can still move after the cue is sold. Laminated maple handles and cored forearms are cheap insurance to keep A Joint Cues straight. Many swear by that configuration.

Buy 10 laminated handles from Atlas. Put them between centers and take three .010 cut between centers then hang them. Now do the same with maple. Come back and put them in the lathe in six month and tell me how many lams move compared to the maple. I did that drill and know the answer. Hint, all of the lams where straight in six months.

Cues that warp are not cool for everyone involved.

JMO,

Rick
 
scdiveteam said:
Joe,

We all know that maple can move. Experienced cue makers that use laminated maple handles understand they are very stable more so than plain straight grained.

From my experience full coring with the lams produces a cue that stays straight. Gluing with expansion poly a tube to a straight turned laminated rod makes one hell of a stable structure.

If you buy kiln dried wood let it accilmate to your shop a couple of weeks or so you are good to go. Baby sitting wood and taking cuts on it over long periods of time is something I do care to participate in. Even when you do everything correctly they can still move after the cue is sold. Laminated maple handles and cored forearms are cheap insurance to keep A Joint Cues straight. Many swear by that configuration.

Buy 10 laminated handles from Atlas. Put them between centers and take three .010 cut between centers then hang them. Now do the same with maple. Come back and put them in the lathe in six month and tell me how many lams move compared to the maple. I did that drill and know the answer. Hint, all of the lams where straight in six months.

Cues that warp are not cool for everyone involved.

JMO,

Rick
Click to expand...

So, what's preventing you from switching to FLAT LAM maple shafts ?

I turned a bunch of 17-ply maple dowels. I wun't impressed.
 
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I core everything but I would not touch a laminated shaft.........

No one I have sold a cue to has noticed a "muffled hit" from a maple core........... on the contrary, everyone says my cues have a great hit............

Kim
 
JoeyInCali said:
Buy a humidifier . Store those cues at 45% humidity. You might be shocked when suddenly they no longer have a warp.
Years ago a cue made by my mentor warped coming from Singapore to New Mexico. It was sent to him. When the cue got to the shop, it straightened out after a few days . Later I saw the same cue after it was resold. The cue was then owned by a decent one-pocket player in San Francisco . I checked the cue . It was dead straight . The owner loved the cue and would not let it for the world.
Call those makers whose cues warped. Let them know. Ask them why they don't use laminated coring dowels .
I've had a few of those laminated dowels. I sold all of them. They had a muffy sound to me.
Laminated dowels are not the answer to bad or unseasoned wood all the time.
One piece full length core is not the answer to a bad jointed cues all the time .
Tad cues have been around for decades . They are still known to be straight.
I don't know of any other name with full core laminate cue that has a better reputation than Tad's cues. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I fail to understand how plywood maple that is about 3/4 to 7/8 in diameter is more stable than a good one piece maple handle. Unless that maple handle shouldn't have made it to the cue . If you can't trust your maple handle to stay straight, how do you trust your maple shaft to stay straight ? It is after all a lot thinner AND longer . Switch to laminated maple shaft too ? Why not ?

Also, there is no bible out there that says you have to use maple under the wrap ALL the time . There are plenty of alternatives . Some might actually match better with some wood used in the forearm.
Click to expand...

Tad switched to laminated maple handles in the 90's, before he passed away he told me because the cues were slightly warping when they sent them to Japan. Even seasoned maple will still move when you put enough humidity surrounding it.
 
Zirroe said:
Tad switched to laminated maple handles in the 90's, before he passed away he told me because the cues were slightly warping when they sent them to Japan. Even seasoned maple will still move when you put enough humidity surrounding it.
Click to expand...

Flat lam ?
Or pie lams from Dominiak/CueStock ?
 
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