Was asked to run local tournaments, but I'm in a bit of a pickle

Kadillac

Kadillac

Registered
A local bar owner approached me and asked me to run weekly (non-league) cash tournaments in her bar. She wants to get players in neighboring towns to come play in the tournaments, and maybe have big charity tournaments to bring in more players.

That's all well and good, and I'd be delighted to do it, but there are a couple of problems. Any advice on how to overcome these obstacles would be appreciated.

1: The tables are sub par, not well maintained and not level. I offered to replace all of the tables with brand new equipment, but the bar owner does not want to offend the current equipment owner and league operator. I don't feel like players will be inclined to want to travel to play on equipment that is not good quality.

2: There are only 4 tables in the bar, and they are not positioned well. There just isn't adequate space to shoot. We have had tournaments with about 17 people, and 4 tables are just not enough for more players than that, much less a big tournament.

3: I have no idea what to do about a handicap system for a non-league tournament, no way to even the playing field between between the beginners and the league players with high averages.

4: She wants to have the tournaments on Tuesday nights. Horrible night! People have to work the next day, and players will not travel during the week to play (we live in the middle of nowhere).

Help! LOL
 
You are in a pickle! She wants the world with a string around it, but she's unrealistic about what it will take to achieve that.

Best you can do is put it all down on paper, requirement by requirement.

New equipment
Five tables with x-amount spacing
Friday or Saturday night
Handicapping problem (although there's nothing she can do about that, she needs to know it's a problem).
Etc.

I suspect she doesn't need or want the business on Friday or Saturday nights, so that will be a deal-killer right off the bat.

The most important thing is don't get involved in anything that you don't think has a good chance of success. Pushing a heavy ball uphill isn't fun.
 
You would think she would love to have brand new diamond tables in her bar, but I guess not.

Any ideas on how to handicap a walk-in tournament? The only thing I can think of is giving the ladies an edge by not requiring them to win as many games. I'm at a loss for the guys, though. Of course it's no fun when one person walks in and wins week after week because they are a 10 average. I played in tournaments at another bar for about 6 months, and I have to say it was very discouraging never getting past 3rd place when playing the same people over and over.

bdorman said:
You are in a pickle! She wants the world with a string around it, but she's unrealistic about what it will take to achieve that.

Best you can do is put it all down on paper, requirement by requirement.

New equipment
Five tables with x-amount spacing
Friday or Saturday night
Handicapping problem (although there's nothing she can do about that, she needs to know it's a problem).
Etc.

I suspect she doesn't need or want the business on Friday or Saturday nights, so that will be a deal-killer right off the bat.

The most important thing is don't get involved in anything that you don't think has a good chance of success. Pushing a heavy ball uphill isn't fun.
Click to expand...
 
Kadillac said:
A local bar owner approached me and asked me to run weekly (non-league) cash tournaments in her bar. She wants to get players in neighboring towns to come play in the tournaments, and maybe have big charity tournaments to bring in more players.

That's all well and good, and I'd be delighted to do it, but there are a couple of problems. Any advice on how to overcome these obstacles would be appreciated.

1: The tables are sub par, not well maintained and not level. I offered to replace all of the tables with brand new equipment, but the bar owner does not want to offend the current equipment owner and league operator. I don't feel like players will be inclined to want to travel to play on equipment that is not good quality.

2: There are only 4 tables in the bar, and they are not positioned well. There just isn't adequate space to shoot. We have had tournaments with about 17 people, and 4 tables are just not enough for more players than that, much less a big tournament.

3: I have no idea what to do about a handicap system for a non-league tournament, no way to even the playing field between between the beginners and the league players with high averages.

4: She wants to have the tournaments on Tuesday nights. Horrible night! People have to work the next day, and players will not travel during the week to play (we live in the middle of nowhere).

Help! LOL
Click to expand...
I would call this an in-house handicapped league. What game are you playing and how long do you want a match to take? Depending on the answer, there are simple handicapping systems you could use.

Here's one simple format:

People play in groups of 4 starting as soon as they come in the door starting at 6PM. Cheap entry and race to 1 or 2 games. The winner in each group of 4 plays in the finals starting at 9PM (or so). Losers can get back in line to be in another group up until 8PM or the tournament is full. "Full" might be a total of 32 entries for 8 finalists. The final 8 might play longer races.

How to handicap depends on the game. At 8 ball, you could use one of the points scoring methods. At nine ball, you could spot winning balls -- you probably don't have enough tournament time to give games on the wire. If people like to play rotation, you might try 6 ball instead of nine ball.

As for the other problems.... Make a condition of your help that she fix up two of the tables -- new cloth and enough room around them to shoot comfortably. I think the other tables will get fixed soon after she starts hearing the comments.
 
Possible to make it work

Kadillac said:
A local bar owner approached me and asked me to run weekly (non-league) cash tournaments in her bar. She wants to get players in neighboring towns to come play in the tournaments, and maybe have big charity tournaments to bring in more players.

That's all well and good, and I'd be delighted to do it, but there are a couple of problems. Any advice on how to overcome these obstacles would be appreciated.

1: The tables are sub par, not well maintained and not level. I offered to replace all of the tables with brand new equipment, but the bar owner does not want to offend the current equipment owner and league operator. I don't feel like players will be inclined to want to travel to play on equipment that is not good quality.

2: There are only 4 tables in the bar, and they are not positioned well. There just isn't adequate space to shoot. We have had tournaments with about 17 people, and 4 tables are just not enough for more players than that, much less a big tournament.

3: I have no idea what to do about a handicap system for a non-league tournament, no way to even the playing field between between the beginners and the league players with high averages.

4: She wants to have the tournaments on Tuesday nights. Horrible night! People have to work the next day, and players will not travel during the week to play (we live in the middle of nowhere).

Help! LOL
Click to expand...
There is an opportunity here to make this work. It is a process of priorities.

Start with the night of the week. What time do local leagues start? Estimate the distance to some of the towns near Vernal(Roosevelt, Dutch John, and maybe Bonanza), and how long it takes to drive there using that start time as a base. Players will drive for a good event. There are advantages for the bar owner to have it on Friday Nights. It is a misconception that it takes away from bar revenue.

The Amusement Vendor is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the tables. Explain to them the purpose for the recovering and releveling for tournaments(tell them you will gladly display their banner in the table area as an advertisement), and these tournaments increase their revenue also. Make sure that this includes a new set of balls, and any house cues that need replacing. Investment reaps Rewards. The room owner has to be commited to keeping the equipment clean and serviceable.

I have to run, but I'll be back later with a few more tips. PM me if you like and I am happy to help.

Carl
 
Kadillac said:
You would think she would love to have brand new diamond tables in her bar, but I guess not.

Any ideas on how to handicap a walk-in tournament? The only thing I can think of is giving the ladies an edge by not requiring them to win as many games. I'm at a loss for the guys, though. Of course it's no fun when one person walks in and wins week after week because they are a 10 average. I played in tournaments at another bar for about 6 months, and I have to say it was very discouraging never getting past 3rd place when playing the same people over and over.
Click to expand...
Yes, a fundamental part of the system must be automatic adjustment of the ratings. See here for an example: http://sfbilliards.com/NPL_info.txt -- just read through the text and ignore the formatting.

From the sound of it you can't play very long matches, so games on the wire is a problem.
 
Don't handicap it, just let everyone know if they win they have to sit out the next week. That way you pretty much always have a different winner. handicapping can get political, and cause many arguements. And i dont know why people don't pay down the field a little more you can put most of the money in 1st thats fine but offer a couple free entries or a dam tshirt or something and you'll have more people coming in.
 
We would be playing 8 ball. I like the 3 point scoring system a lot. It seems like people can't bag as easily.

*Dumb question alert* What is 'making it to the hill'? I have never heard that term before lol

Bob Jewett said:
I would call this an in-house handicapped league. What game are you playing and how long do you want a match to take? Depending on the answer, there are simple handicapping systems you could use.

Here's one simple format:

People play in groups of 4 starting as soon as they come in the door starting at 6PM. Cheap entry and race to 1 or 2 games. The winner in each group of 4 plays in the finals starting at 9PM (or so). Losers can get back in line to be in another group up until 8PM or the tournament is full. "Full" might be a total of 32 entries for 8 finalists. The final 8 might play longer races.

How to handicap depends on the game. At 8 ball, you could use one of the points scoring methods. At nine ball, you could spot winning balls -- you probably don't have enough tournament time to give games on the wire. If people like to play rotation, you might try 6 ball instead of nine ball.

As for the other problems.... Make a condition of your help that she fix up two of the tables -- new cloth and enough room around them to shoot comfortably. I think the other tables will get fixed soon after she starts hearing the comments.
Click to expand...
 
There will be plenty of incentives. The owner is great about giving away awesome prizes and throwing in money for tournaments. For charity tournaments, we would do a 50/50 pot, plus prizes donated from local businesses.

I was thinking 1st and 2nd pay out, 3rd gets entry fee back and top female gets a cut.

BigDaddyInc. said:
Don't handicap it, just let everyone know if they win they have to sit out the next week. That way you pretty much always have a different winner. handicapping can get political, and cause many arguements. And i dont know why people don't pay down the field a little more you can put most of the money in 1st thats fine but offer a couple free entries or a dam tshirt or something and you'll have more people coming in.
Click to expand...
 
Kadillac said:
There will be plenty of incentives. The owner is great about giving away awesome prizes and throwing in money for tournaments. For charity tournaments, we would do a 50/50 pot, plus prizes donated from local businesses.

I was thinking 1st and 2nd pay out, 3rd gets entry fee back and top female gets a cut.
Click to expand...

Well thats fine, but dont give them the entry fee back, give them a free entry certificate or something, that way they will most likely be back next time. It will change their thinking a little bit. Next week they will think "do i wanna play in that tourny tonite"? And then they will say to themselves might as well i have that free entry! And i wouldnt bother handicapping an 8ball tourny makes it take longer. I would do single game double elimination. Anyone can win one game of 8ball whether it be by luck or skill. And if you must handicap it just have the winner sit out the next week.

I played in a tourny that did that and they had 40 players or more every week and it wasnt handicapped, just winner sits out next week.
 
Poor equipment must be addressed. She needs to approach her vendor with her intentions, and let him decide if he wants to take care of the problem or have her switch vendors. She may not want to offend him, but its her and all of her employees butts on the line if she doesn't take the steps needed to improve her business.

As far as handicaps, DONT. You will save yourself a lot of headaches if you run a scratch tourney. When I ran tournaments one of my most popular was a race to 3 loser breaks format. Keep the entry low enough so people can afford it. The short races in nine ball makes it so an upset is much more likely to happen. And loser breaks helps the weaker players feel like they are more involved in the set even when they lose. The short races also helps with only having 4 tables.

If one person starts consistently winning you can have them set out a week after a win. But if you use this format I would be amazed if you have the same person win all the time. Short loser break tournaments really shakes things up when it comes to who wins.

Another bar had a race to 1 eight ball tourney. They were drawing 40 players and ran it on six tables. Talk about a coin flip tournament LOL. But the players loved it cause anyone can win one game to win a match.

Keep in mind who you are trying to get in the bar, its not the top players. Its the average players that just want to come out and have a good time.


Woody
 
woody_968 said:
Poor equipment must be addressed. She needs to approach her vendor with her intentions, and let him decide if he wants to take care of the problem or have her switch vendors. She may not want to offend him, but its her and all of her employees butts on the line if she doesn't take the steps needed to improve her business.

As far as handicaps, DONT. You will save yourself a lot of headaches if you run a scratch tourney. When I ran tournaments one of my most popular was a race to 3 loser breaks format. Keep the entry low enough so people can afford it. The short races in nine ball makes it so an upset is much more likely to happen. And loser breaks helps the weaker players feel like they are more involved in the set even when they lose. The short races also helps with only having 4 tables.

If one person starts consistently winning you can have them set out a week after a win. But if you use this format I would be amazed if you have the same person win all the time. Short loser break tournaments really shakes things up when it comes to who wins.

Another bar had a race to 1 eight ball tourney. They were drawing 40 players and ran it on six tables. Talk about a coin flip tournament LOL. But the players loved it cause anyone can win one game to win a match.

Keep in mind who you are trying to get in the bar, its not the top players. Its the average players that just want to come out and have a good time.


Woody
Click to expand...

What he said.
 
Good idea!! I will do that, instead. I'm sure I could come up with some free entry certificates! Thanks!

The reason I want to handicap (or at least score) the players is because I want to keep track of the players on my website by rank. That way, if we decide to do team tournaments or anything, I can handicap the teams accordingly, and players can keep track of their progress.

BigDaddyInc. said:
Well thats fine, but dont give them the entry fee back, give them a free entry certificate or something, that way they will most likely be back next time. It will change their thinking a little bit. Next week they will think "do i wanna play in that tourny tonite"? And then they will say to themselves might as well i have that free entry! And i wouldnt bother handicapping an 8ball tourny makes it take longer. I would do single game double elimination. Anyone can win one game of 8ball whether it be by luck or skill. And if you must handicap it just have the winner sit out the next week.

I played in a tourny that did that and they had 40 players or more every week and it wasnt handicapped, just winner sits out next week.
Click to expand...
 
Kadillac said:
Good idea!! I will do that, instead. I'm sure I could come up with some free entry certificates! Thanks!

The reason I want to handicap (or at least score) the players is because I want to keep track of the players on my website by rank. That way, if we decide to do team tournaments or anything, I can handicap the teams accordingly, and players can keep track of their progress.
Click to expand...

Oh, well that requires to much math for my input lol!!! Maybe you could rank them on thier average finish in the tournies? Like an "a" player might average 1st-4th "b" player 5th-8th and so on. But that would take awhile to get average on everyone. Im sure theres a better way.
 
Kadillac said:
A local bar owner approached me and asked me to run weekly (non-league) cash tournaments in her bar. She wants to get players in neighboring towns to come play in the tournaments, and maybe have big charity tournaments to bring in more players.

That's all well and good, and I'd be delighted to do it, but there are a couple of problems. Any advice on how to overcome these obstacles would be appreciated.

1: The tables are sub par, not well maintained and not level. I offered to replace all of the tables with brand new equipment, but the bar owner does not want to offend the current equipment owner and league operator. I don't feel like players will be inclined to want to travel to play on equipment that is not good quality.

2: There are only 4 tables in the bar, and they are not positioned well. There just isn't adequate space to shoot. We have had tournaments with about 17 people, and 4 tables are just not enough for more players than that, much less a big tournament.

3: I have no idea what to do about a handicap system for a non-league tournament, no way to even the playing field between between the beginners and the league players with high averages.

4: She wants to have the tournaments on Tuesday nights. Horrible night! People have to work the next day, and players will not travel during the week to play (we live in the middle of nowhere).

Help! LOL
Click to expand...


1. You can run a tourny on crappy tables
2. Make it a short race and use a 16 person board
3. Do not handicap
4. The bar owner doesn't need to generate business on Friday or Saturday. That is most likely why they are doing it on Tuesday
 
woody_968 said:
Poor equipment must be addressed. She needs to approach her vendor with her intentions, and let him decide if he wants to take care of the problem or have her switch vendors. She may not want to offend him, but its her and all of her employees butts on the line if she doesn't take the steps needed to improve her business.

As far as handicaps, DONT. You will save yourself a lot of headaches if you run a scratch tourney. When I ran tournaments one of my most popular was a race to 3 loser breaks format. Keep the entry low enough so people can afford it. The short races in nine ball makes it so an upset is much more likely to happen. And loser breaks helps the weaker players feel like they are more involved in the set even when they lose. The short races also helps with only having 4 tables.

If one person starts consistently winning you can have them set out a week after a win. But if you use this format I would be amazed if you have the same person win all the time. Short loser break tournaments really shakes things up when it comes to who wins.

Another bar had a race to 1 eight ball tourney. They were drawing 40 players and ran it on six tables. Talk about a coin flip tournament LOL. But the players loved it cause anyone can win one game to win a match.

Keep in mind who you are trying to get in the bar, its not the top players. Its the average players that just want to come out and have a good time.


Woody
Click to expand...

Woody is 100% correct...as usual. My advice is get on the phone an let him help get you started.

I also offer that money added will help too. One small town would add $100 for 8 paid players, $200 for 16 etc. Adding money helps.

Ken
 
Last edited:
Fair warning.... a local weekly handicapped tournament is probably the most thankless job in pool. I've never been one, but have played in enough of these tournaments over the past 20 years to know its a horrible job.

You will have people crying to you every week, complaining about their rating, their opponents rating, the new players rating, the rules, the format, you name it.

Maybe its different in a bar setting where the level of play is probably a lot less, and the players are mostly out for a good time (I've never played in bars). In a pool room setting with competitive players, its non-stop crying.
 
Kadillac said:
...I offered to replace all of the tables with brand new equipment, but the bar owner does not want to offend the current equipment owner and league operator....
Click to expand...

Kadillac said:
You would think she would love to have brand new diamond tables in her bar, but I guess not....
Click to expand...

Hello,

You mentioned in your posts above twice about new tables. The way I interperted the post, it was as if you would be buying them? That doesn't make any sense. Are you an equipment vendor?

Thanks for the clarification.
 
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