Damn. I'm most likely wrong then. Maybe I was thinking of some other tips.
I need a correction.
Freddie <~~~ wrong again
Water Buffalo Tips - reality
- Thread starter Cornerman
- Start date
I need a correction.
Freddie <~~~ wrong again
Just curious, but you realize a baby water buffalo is called a calf, right?
Makes me wonder what kind of calf skin they used. Calf is actually non-specific.
I am sure not all the old tips were water buffalo, but as far as I know most of the mainstream ones we know were.
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Sorry, but not even close to buffalo tips. I understand there's somewhat of a competition on these pool threads, but the early Champion and Crown tips are calfskin, made from cows.
Some ways you can tell. A water buffalo tip is pretty dark, and tends to be pretty thick. A calfskin tip, made from a cow, is lighter colored, like the old Champion tips are, and are considerably thinner than a water buffalo tip. The texture is completely different as well. The calfskin tips are much softer than the water buffalo tips, and when fairly new, you can feel a bit of moisture as you finish them, unlike the buffalo tips, which are pretty hard.
Keep them coming...
Also, show me some buffalo in France in the 60s...
All the best,
WW
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Being around cattle my entire life, I can't say I know of many calves with hide nearly thick enough for a tip. Even a grown steer hide at the high point on the back would be considered thin for a tip. I won't disagree that they were made from cattle calves, because I don't know that for a fact. I do, however, have serious doubt. If indeed they were made from cattle instead of buffalo, then I'd need to see factual evidence to believe it. Otherwise all we can do is bat notions back & forth with no confirmation.
As for color & texture, that's nearly nothing to do with species and a whole lot to do with tanning process. And if the French were importing ebonies & rosewoods from all over the planet to make cues, it would be foolish to think they weren't importing hides. Again, I'm not going to argue either direction on the leather for those old tips, except for Tweeten tips which are water buffalo. I just have serious doubts that it was cattle calf skin until there's tangible proof otherwise.
As for color & texture, that's nearly nothing to do with species and a whole lot to do with tanning process. And if the French were importing ebonies & rosewoods from all over the planet to make cues, it would be foolish to think they weren't importing hides. Again, I'm not going to argue either direction on the leather for those old tips, except for Tweeten tips which are water buffalo. I just have serious doubts that it was cattle calf skin until there's tangible proof otherwise.
Fair enough.
But water buffalo calfskin can be light, as can the adult skin.
There aren't any elephants in France either, yet ivory was prominent in billiards. Same with woods like ebony, coco, rosewoods, etc.
I am not arguing, honestly I don't know what calfskin the label on such tips really means. I am wondering.
I am aware that water buffalo calfskin certainly was and is used for book bindings in Europe. And it certainly wasn't necessarily dark. The color depends on the tanning process.
So water buffalo and water buffalo calfskin has been commonly available in Europe for a long time, even though there are no water buffalo in Europe.
I collect antique medical and science texts, that's how I know.
EXAMPLE
Another EXAMPLE
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Since we're talking cue tips from decades ago, it may help to provide some images. On the left in each of the pictures, is a vintage French Champion tip, which, I believe, is made from cow hide. It's pretty tough, like the buffalo. On the right, is a water buffalo tip. As you can see, the Champion is much lighter in color, and discounting the fiber base, is only about a third the thickness of the buffalo tip. Makes sense. The feel is much different as well, much softer for the Champion. I've played them both. They would both be pressed somewhat, which would not account for a difference in thickness. You have to ask yourself as well, have you seen a buffalo cue tip as light in color as the Champion? Or as thin? I haven't. Some would think this comes from the same animal, but I don't. You be the judge.
All the best,
WW
All the best,
WW
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It wasn't just the British who had an empire....
French Indochina was part of the French Empire....until Minh got tired of them.
Nice try. Show me where the light cue tip came from.
Also, the French man who made the tips did not live in Indochina...
All the best,
WW
I just started using black water buffalo tips. Mainly, I just can't stand laminated tips, and I can't seem to find a Le Pro worth a crap anymore. I went through 10 just to find one that didn't accordion on me, and the one I ended up with still plays very soft. Mark Kulungian turned me on to WB tips. I just put one on a couple of days ago, and I love it. The first thought that came to mind was "feels like a old, broken in Le Pro", so I'm glad I saw a couple other posts to that effect too. I thought it was just in my head. Maybe just a tiny bit firmer.
Haven't tried the brown yet. I've heard the black is harder...I've heard the brown is harder...somehow, I have a feeling they're both about the same and probably overlap, though I'd love to at least know which way they intend for it to be.
Haven't tried the brown yet. I've heard the black is harder...I've heard the brown is harder...somehow, I have a feeling they're both about the same and probably overlap, though I'd love to at least know which way they intend for it to be.
many decades ago the old tips were all thin and you didnt cut them down. the champion, le pro, elkmaster, i think were the main ones and they all spread out soon after installation. the buffalo tip wasnt around much but ones i saw and used were much thicker and harder and mushroomed less.
until the moori tip arrived pool tips were lousy.
most still are.
until the moori tip arrived pool tips were lousy.
most still are.
I was also a big fan of the sumos, but had a few that had chunks break off after a miscue.
You ever aware of that happening?
Triangles also break in chunks like that. I use old original mooris when i can, but wb tips( i first used them on andy gilbert cues,i think) really played good.
Looks like a freshly cut LePro, when the coating is no longer on and it hasn't been sealed or burnished yet. It also looks nearly identical to a current Triumph. A triangle is actually lighter color, nearly white sometimes. All three are water buffalo, and all three are colored according to tanning solution. An Elk Master is blue because of the tanning process. That's not chalk. It's white when it's shaved to size after install. It's water buffalo, too. I bet when you install that Champion, shave it to size and burnish it, it'll be dark brown, too. That's a pretty typical color for Chandivert tips.
Like I said, I won't argue that those old Champion tips weren't made from cow calf, because I don't know for certain. I do know enough to have credible doubt, so I won't bite off on cow hide unless there's some documentation to say otherwise. It would be nice to know, just for curiosity sake.
Not so much on the Sumo, but the old version of WB. They were very similar to Sumo back then. Something happened around 2000 where WB changed things up. They went from a tip nearly identical to Sumo(except that they smelled like poop and had no coating) and began making junk that would almost certainly chunk. When Sumo went out, WB changed yet again and began making the tips they make now. I seriously with a company like Tweeten or Chandivert would pick up a solid water buffalo tip like that & maintain a long term consistency. It's frustrating for me, as a builder, to find a nice tip & then they disappear. I'm not a fan of layered tips, but realize their purpose. They exist because of the lack of quality solid tips.
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I have a box of Sumo I must have had for at least 5 years with around 40 tips left. Wanna buy it?
Regards, Dave
$40 shipped?
That's it. WB's from 2000-2005ish were bad about that. I only seen it on Sumo maybe a couple times ever.
I'm in Europe so shipping is a little more expensive.
For $50 I can do a padded envelope (not insured) or $60 as a parcel (insured).
Regards, Dave