Waxing the cue ball? WTF is Kaci talking about now?

[T411]

I think the point is that pool has a storied history of hustling, cheating, and just general shady characters - much of which is tied to the gambling culture.

Matchroom is trying to bring a level of professionalism to the game - it must clearly define what is crossing the line, and have a robust mechanism in place for enforcement.

Lumping gambling and cheating together still blurs the lines and that kind of thinking doesn’t do pool any favors. The truth is, you’re never going to separate gambling from pool. They’ve been tied together for over a century, for better or worse. The negative connotations that come with pool are part of its history, shady characters, hustlers, smoky rooms, and money changing hands. That is the real deal. It’s also part of what gave the game its soul, its edge, and its legends.

Gambling isn’t the problem, cheating is. There’s a difference between a guy betting $100 on himself in a tough race to 7or 11 and someone waxing cue balls to gain an edge. The first is competition. The second is cheating.

I love this game, but it’s like boxing in many ways. It always had a rough image, and parts of that image are earned. But professionalism and grit can coexist. If Matchroom or anyone else wants to raise the game’s profile, they don’t need to sanitize the sport, just draw a fat line between ethics and cheating. And enforce it without exception.

 

[fjk]

A local guy like that had some similar moves. One was a kind of push shot on the cue ball when it's frozen. He elevated about 45 degrees and came in slowly and then pushed the cue ball - he didn't stroke it.

Ha, this same guy did something similar. I have no idea is this is legal or not: when he needed to take an intentional in one pocket or straight pool but pushing a tad too far would give something up, he put the tip right down on the felt and then slowly pushed in to tap the cueball. He told me the drag of the felt provided way more control. I've used that one and it's true...you can touch the cue without the risk of moving it (which is hard to do with a normal, gentle stroke).

 

[Badpenguin]

Lumping gambling and cheating together still blurs the lines and that kind of thinking doesn’t do pool any favors. The truth is, you’re never going to separate gambling from pool. They’ve been tied together for over a century, for better or worse. The negative connotations that come with pool are part of its history, shady characters, hustlers, smoky rooms, and money changing hands. That is the real deal. It’s also part of what gave the game its soul, its edge, and its legends.

Gambling isn’t the problem, cheating is. There’s a difference between a guy betting $100 on himself in a tough race to 7or 11 and someone waxing cue balls to gain an edge. The first is competition. The second is cheating.

I love this game, but it’s like boxing in many ways. It always had a rough image, and parts of that image are earned. But professionalism and grit can coexist. If Matchroom or anyone else wants to raise the game’s profile, they don’t need to sanitize the sport, just draw a fat line between ethics and cheating. And enforce it without exception.

I referred to it as dirty gambling to differentiate between regular ole gambling and cheating/hustling.

Likewise, you are never going to separate gambling from cheating, they attract one another like stink on shit. With (US) pool, it is a particularly bad association that has kept pool from the mainstream for decades, and kept pool in bars.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

I don't wash my hands after using the bathroom so I can rub it on the table.

Yes, I do wear my shooting glove with me. I don't take it off for the bathroom.

You shake your Johnson with your bridge hand or are you an amphibious #1'er? lol

 

[T411]

I referred to it as dirty gambling to differentiate between regular ole gambling and cheating/hustling.

Likewise, you are never going to separate gambling from cheating, they attract one another like stink on shit. With (US) pool, it is a particularly bad association that has kept pool from the mainstream for decades, and kept pool in bars.

Again regular gambling is not cheating. I don’t see what’s so hard to grasp about that. If someone doesn’t want to play for money, don’t. Nobody’s forcing anyone to put up a dime. But frowning on those who do, or conflating gambling with cheating, is lazy thinking.

Gambling doesn’t corrupt pool… cheating does. And frankly, if you’re worried about being hustled, don’t gamble. That’s a personal choice just like anything in life. It you step into something without knowledge or awareness, you may get burned. That doesn’t mean the game or the gamble is inherently dirty.

In the U.S., pool has always carried a set of connotations. Yes, some of them come from gambling, but let’s be real, its “rough reputation” had as much to do with smoke filled pool hall, alcohol, and women and kids being kept out as it ever did with playing for money. We didn’t stigmatize the bet we stigmatized the environment.

And now some folks act like gambling is what held pool back. That’s revisionist history. All major sports have gambling attached to them and some openlly , others under the table. The only difference is those sports were legitimized by media, institutions, and big money. Pool never had that chance.

Also do you really think the top international players don’t gamble? You think Filler, Gorst, or Ouschan never bet on a set? That’s a naive take. The difference is, in many other countries, gambling around pool doesn’t carry the same connotations that’s built into American pool. It is just part of the competitive fabric for them. In fact, that’s likely one reason players abroad are often more battle tested than our American players.

So the notion that gambling and cheating are inseparable? That’s not a fact… that’s a projection. They only become inseparable when you can’t differentiate. A problem the rest of the world doesn’t have.

 

[evolau]

I think there are too many eyes watching fir anyone to wax the balls. At our home tables which are 6 Olhausen Grand Champions tables and 6 sets of Aramith balls. We would run them thru every morning thru the high speed ball cleaner and spray 75% alcohol solution and clean the balls. Our reasoning was to rid the balls of oils and left over grim from people handling the balls the previous day. I watched all the matches and I think Kacli needs to apologize to the Phillipino players for insinuating that they cheat. He just got waxed, not the cue ball.

 

[cueman]

you think that or know that? big difference.

My son was told after the match that while he had gone to the bathroom the guy took a cloth out of his case and cleaned the cue ball with it. The guy totally changes his style of play to zero draw shots and my son is miscuing when drawing. I am 99% sure he waxed the cue ball.

 

[xproskier]

only seen it done, not done it myself. silicone spray on a microfiber cloth then gentle uniform wipe on the table (including rails). all this after vacuuming and cleaning table ofc. i think it was a pure silicone spray for automotive purposes

Played Earl Strickland in FL a few years back and he sprayed and wiped the table for about 45 min. Had a microfiber towel and I wasn't exactly sure what was in his secret little spray bottle. Said to me it was because of the humidity. Cloth did play faster when he finished and he went 3-1 on me.

I have personally siliconed a few CB’s on slow tables when practicing at foreign locations to emulate my own table at home which has some pretty fast Simonis on it. Draw is definitely amplified and sidespin a bit more noticeable. Though not a common ritual of mine, I only do it for my long practice sessions and only when alone.

I do however, wonder how it affects the tip in the short or long term? I mean, it’s not like the CB is soaking wet. But over time?? I use a G2 medium and wonder if it eventually hardens or softens it. Anyone with thoughts on this??

 

[billiards_watch]

You have to remember in humid and hot weather your chalk (Pyro) will cake up. I've had my chalk for two summers now and last year it caked up quite a bit and you can apply much easier. This summer the owners have been blasting the A/C so I don't notice chalk on the cue ball. Over time it will start to roll roll like shit and the residue will affect play.

 

[mjantti]

Around 1977, I played a little trick on one of my regular practice partners, who was the house man at Star Billiards in Santa Rosa. He was also, so far as I know, the person who coined the term "squirt" (AKA cue ball deflection). I had recently discovered the joys of waxing and I slipped a prepared cue ball onto the table.
View attachment 840380
With the cue ball behind the line I asked him to shoot a stop shot on a ball near the far corner pocket. The cue ball drew straight back two diamonds. I said, "No, just stop the ball." Again, he drew the cue ball back two diamonds. He knew exactly how he had to hit the ball for a stop shot on that broken in but clean cloth and a normal cue ball. I then explained to him what was going on.

I didn't know you had such a wicked side in you, Bob!

 

[Badpenguin]

Gambling doesn’t corrupt pool… cheating does. And frankly, if you’re worried about being hustled, don’t gamble. That’s a personal choice just like anything in life. It you step into something without knowledge or awareness, you may get burned. That doesn’t mean the game or the gamble is inherently dirty.

We will just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[DynoDan]

Again regular gambling is not cheating. I don’t see what’s so hard to grasp about that. If someone doesn’t want to play for money, don’t. Nobody’s forcing anyone to put up a dime. But frowning on those who do, or conflating gambling with cheating, is lazy thinking.

Gambling doesn’t corrupt pool… cheating does. And frankly, if you’re worried about being hustled, don’t gamble. That’s a personal choice just like anything in life. It you step into something without knowledge or awareness, you may get burned. That doesn’t mean the game or the gamble is inherently dirty.

In the U.S., pool has always carried a set of connotations. Yes, some of them come from gambling, but let’s be real, its “rough reputation” had as much to do with smoke filled pool hall, alcohol, and women and kids being kept out as it ever did with playing for money. We didn’t stigmatize the bet we stigmatized the environment.

And now some folks act like gambling is what held pool back. That’s revisionist history. All major sports have gambling attached to them and some openlly , others under the table. The only difference is those sports were legitimized by media, institutions, and big money. Pool never had that chance.

Also do you really think the top international players don’t gamble? You think Filler, Gorst, or Ouschan never bet on a set? That’s a naive take. The difference is, in many other countries, gambling around pool doesn’t carry the same connotations that’s built into American pool. It is just part of the competitive fabric for them. In fact, that’s likely one reason players abroad are often more battle tested than our American players.

So the notion that gambling and cheating are inseparable? That’s not a fact… that’s a projection. They only become inseparable when you can’t differentiate. A problem the rest of the world doesn’t have.

I wonder, do today’s kids gamble at video games? Are ‘gamers’ considered ‘sportsmen’? The demise of the neighborhood poolroom has ruined gambling, not the other way around.
People gambled at pool, just like they gamble in the casinos now: everyone thinks they can beat the odds. I grew up gambling with better players for that very reason. Sure, I lost money, but I learned and got better, while having fun (and building character). I met a lot of hustlers along the way, but very few cheaters.

 

[skor]

To be honest, I haven't read all the posts here, so if this was addressed already, then I'm sorry.

This whole waxing thing got me thinking a bit... waxing the CB won't just affect the way the CB moves but also the contact with the cue tip. If the CB is more slippery, then there will be more miscues, and it'll be harder to apply extreme spin.
This will also affect the guilty part that will require staying closer to the center of the ball and will require quite a stroke to spin the CB; this is something that actually the Filipinos are pretty good at. We did see quite a lot of miscues during the tournament.

 

[Straightpool_99]

To be honest, I haven't read all the posts here, so if this was addressed already, then I'm sorry.

This whole waxing thing got me thinking a bit... waxing the CB won't just affect the way the CB moves but also the contact with the cue tip. If the CB is more slippery, then there will be more miscues, and it'll be harder to apply extreme spin.
This will also affect the guilty part that will require staying closer to the center of the ball and will require quite a stroke to spin the CB; this is something that actually the Filipinos are pretty good at. We did see quite a lot of miscues during the tournament.

That really hasn't been my experience when experimenting with teflon/silicone sprays (for trickshots and fun, NOT cheating)

1. Miscues are not common if you use chalk.
2. Staying close to center is not necessary.
3. As far as action on the cueball, you get more, lots more. You will draw further than ever before, with the same effort.

The one thing that may be reduced is grab on the rails. My experience was that sidespin grabbed slightly less. Still you are getting more roll. The table will play as with brand new cloth, for better and for worse. Less grab on the rail, more slide on the cloth, further roll on the cueball. You could get increased "kill" action with forward spin if the object ball is close to the rail, but with modern cushions this still doesn't happen a lot. Also throw will be reduced. Cut shots will be simplified once you adjust to the reduced throw.

 

[garczar]

My son was told after the match that while he had gone to the bathroom the guy took a cloth out of his case and cleaned the cue ball with it. The guy totally changes his style of play to zero draw shots and my son is miscuing when drawing. I am 99% sure he waxed the cue ball.

Still just hearsay is my point. If so sure just who was this 'pro'?

 

[jbart65]

Gorst talked more about waxing on his podcast yesterday. He says it has been going on for decades. Players have complained about it for quite some time, but nothing was done. Now it is being addressed, he said.

Evidently there are no rules in place against it now, not officially, his partner, Sword, claimed.

Sword related a story about how Diamond had to wax balls/tables some years ago in the Philippines because the heat and humidity caused balls to frequently jump off the table. True? I have no idea.

Sword also insisted the ball/table was being waxed in last year's Hanoi final. He didn't name names, but we know who he was talking about.

I am unconvinced, having watched the full match twice.

 

[Johnson]

Gorst talked more about waxing on his podcast yesterday. He says it has been going on for decades. Players have complained about it for quite some time, but nothing was done. Now it is being addressed, he said.

Evidently there are no rules in place against it now, not officially, his partner, Collins, claimed.

That's Jason Sword his backer/buddy, they both live in SE Indiana and Collins is in Cali.

 

[jbart65]

That's Jason Sword his backer/buddy, they both live in SE Indiana and Collins is in Cali.

Thanks. I stand corrected. Amended my post.

 

[Johnson]

Thanks. I stand corrected. Amended my post.

His brother Alan will be trolling the comments during the podcasts interacting with them. The only manipulating of the balls I've ever heard of was when Frost played Dippy some big 9 ball sets and he ate some chips and greased up all the balls while he racked and they opened the doors and shut the AC off. I thought it was interesting how they thought Fedor and Filler would be heavy favorites over any Asians in a big 10 ball set and big Kaci too!

 

[skogstokig]

His brother Alan will be trolling the comments during the podcasts interacting with them. The only manipulating of the balls I've ever heard of was when Frost played Dippy some big 9 ball sets and he ate some chips and greased up all the balls while he racked and they opened the doors and shut the AC off. I thought it was interesting how they thought Fedor and Filler would be heavy favorites over any Asians in a big 10 ball set and big Kaci too!

there were also two american pros writing on here, one accusing the other of putting the ball in his pocket and adding a foreign substance to it. i guess nothing is new under the sun.