Yeah I guess all the top pros that play each other and use a jump cue 10 times a set...and hit the object ball almost every time need to practice their safeties more too
. Johnnyt
Weak kickers with jump cue jump from "C" to "B"
- Thread starter Johnnyt
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Yeah I guess all the top pros that play each other and use a jump cue 10 times a set...and hit the object ball almost every time need to practice their safeties more too
. Johnnyt
I agree with you that you should strive to hook your opponent better but....
If jump cues are allowed how come it's illegal to use just a shaft to jump? I have a friend who can jump over a ball with a credit card thickness between the cue and object ball. (this is probably why)
The right shooter with the right jump cue (legal size) can get over a ball a half inch away. Granted you should always strive to leave your opponent dead hooked--But is it really fair that they just pull out a magic stick and hop over a ball less than a ball thickness away?
In my opinion (my ideal world) if you can't shoot the jump shot with a full size cue you shouldn't be shooting it at all. It changes the game tremendously, not for the better.
Although whatever the rules are I won't complain to anybody. Just play my best and try to win. If jump cues are allowed I will bring mine. If they are not I will leave mine at home.
Dudley
Do you believe break cues are as much of an advantage as a jump cue???
I also will use a jump cue if the rules allow it. Because it is too much of an advantage for those with them whether I like what they do for the game or not...
my $.02
Dudley
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Yes, for example, you can hook yourself and keep the inning by playing through the air. What a joke!
The break cue came about because breaking with your own stick causes deformities in your cue tip, which can reduce performance, and also because it causes you to go through tips much more often. A break cue more than pays for itself over time, reducing the long-term cost of playing for the serious player. The jump cue, alternatively, has increased the cost of playing serious pool without giving the game anything at all in return. I know the jump cue is here to stay, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
I was playing in a local 9ball league last night, it is a singles handicap league that basically you play all the other players (over 40) and the top 16 go into a playoff.
Last night I played my country #1 player, he spotted me 2 games in a race to 6.
I played very good and got to the hill and it was 5-3 to me.
I rushed a shot and missed, he run out 5 - 4
I broke dry (alternating breaks) he run up to the 6, he missed it leaving it hanging at the pocket but got the cue ball behind the 7 and hooked me...
I could have kicked it but the jump shot offered a better percentage of pocketing AND getting a good position for the 7, I took the jump.....
I made it and run out for the win....
We had some good safety battles in that match when we both had to kick 2 and 3 rails leaving each other safe.
Bottom line, you have to master all types of shots in order to be able to play in top form and win!
But this whole thread did not start about top players, this thread started talking about the amateur players.
In most case that I've seen when an amateur player jumps, he usually hops for a good contact and not foul.... hopefully to pocket a ball.... there is no way they can actually control the cue ball. If they get lucky than so be it, no one can beat luck (just ask Efren....) If you are a better player then overall you'll get more wins. Nobody become an A player by a lucky shot or a lucky jump.... statistics always even up eventually... (regardless of what Efren is saying.... :grin-square
Last night I played my country #1 player, he spotted me 2 games in a race to 6.
I played very good and got to the hill and it was 5-3 to me.
I rushed a shot and missed, he run out 5 - 4
I broke dry (alternating breaks) he run up to the 6, he missed it leaving it hanging at the pocket but got the cue ball behind the 7 and hooked me...
I could have kicked it but the jump shot offered a better percentage of pocketing AND getting a good position for the 7, I took the jump.....
I made it and run out for the win....
We had some good safety battles in that match when we both had to kick 2 and 3 rails leaving each other safe.
Bottom line, you have to master all types of shots in order to be able to play in top form and win!
But this whole thread did not start about top players, this thread started talking about the amateur players.
In most case that I've seen when an amateur player jumps, he usually hops for a good contact and not foul.... hopefully to pocket a ball.... there is no way they can actually control the cue ball. If they get lucky than so be it, no one can beat luck (just ask Efren....) If you are a better player then overall you'll get more wins. Nobody become an A player by a lucky shot or a lucky jump.... statistics always even up eventually... (regardless of what Efren is saying.... :grin-square
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Unfortunately I play league(8 & 9 ball) on 6.5 foot barboxes. Without the jump cue a missed kick which may not be easy or available will more than likely lead to a loss. I would rather take the jump shot & either get a good hit or pocket the ball than give up ball in hand.
Imo the jump or kick is heavily dependent upon table size & the type of game being played. Opposition skill along with the individuals comfort in type of shot selected should be weighed carefully as well.
Imo the jump or kick is heavily dependent upon table size & the type of game being played. Opposition skill along with the individuals comfort in type of shot selected should be weighed carefully as well.
If the argument is wear and tear on the cue for a break cue. It can also be the same for jumping. A long jump shot with draw can be very tramatic on a cue. Granted the jump cue can make the shot easier but so can modern break cues. Imagine how good Bobby Jones would have been with modern golf equipment or how great Gordie Howe would have been with modern hockey equipment. They were great without it but would have been even greater with it.
maybe the problem isisn't so much that these kids are learning how to jump so they can't kick. But all you do is kick so you can't jump.
Jumping is Huge. one of my friends who is going to be playing professionaly soon. Has got to be one of the best jumpers in Canada among the higher end players. And it is awsome. It makes hooking him that much harder.
placing a ball between you cue ball and the object ball is easy. learn to freeze the ball and they cant jump anyway.
Jumping is Huge. one of my friends who is going to be playing professionaly soon. Has got to be one of the best jumpers in Canada among the higher end players. And it is awsome. It makes hooking him that much harder.
placing a ball between you cue ball and the object ball is easy. learn to freeze the ball and they cant jump anyway.
I dont think anyone is jumping their way from a C to a B player and I dont think kicking is the difference either.
If a C player jumps a ball in and ends up with position consistently, I question his C player status as it is. It doesnt take much to make contact with a ball, but there is much more involved if you are trying to run out.
To me the difference between a C and B player is someone who doesnt put themselves in the situation to jump/kick as much. The other difference is getting out with an open table. A C player doesnt get out as often and if they DO with a jump shot... then either they are underrated or got lucky.
I also dont think a jump from B to A player involves the jump cue much either. An A player who cant kick, IMO, is a B player. Kicking is just as/more important than jumping at the higher levels and if you cannot kick, you wont last long. There are just too many situations you cannot jump your way out of.
Im just saying that a jump shot may save you once in a while, but I dont think its the reason for a jump in playing ability.
If a C player jumps a ball in and ends up with position consistently, I question his C player status as it is. It doesnt take much to make contact with a ball, but there is much more involved if you are trying to run out.
To me the difference between a C and B player is someone who doesnt put themselves in the situation to jump/kick as much. The other difference is getting out with an open table. A C player doesnt get out as often and if they DO with a jump shot... then either they are underrated or got lucky.
I also dont think a jump from B to A player involves the jump cue much either. An A player who cant kick, IMO, is a B player. Kicking is just as/more important than jumping at the higher levels and if you cannot kick, you wont last long. There are just too many situations you cannot jump your way out of.
Im just saying that a jump shot may save you once in a while, but I dont think its the reason for a jump in playing ability.
I don't jump on my table-I didn't own or use a jump cue for years, I kick pretty good (lots of golf), After playing in a tourney and seeing some of the benefits I started jumping, not to hit a ball but to make the ball and continue the run out. It is a powerful and useful tool to have, I use it sparingly but with great results. It would not bother me if they banned 'em, they're banned on my table cause I don't like the excessive skid marks.
I agree 100%.
To add, with jump cues, what used to be a decent safety, aint anymore. You need to play em tighter. Also, there aren't that many situation where jumping is the right shot. If you're talking about A players and up, jumping to just make the hit, is most likely a sell out anyway, you'll probably be racking.
Lastly, whether jump cues/jumping is good, bad or ugly...doesn't matter. You will benefit from it as much as you get beat by it, assuming you have the skill.
Eric
Sorry to say, but most pros I've seen aren't that great at kicking either, including 2 of the 3 you mentioned (and we know I don't mean Efren
) It's clear they just haven't made it a priority.It's kinda embarrassing to watch pro pool from a three-cushion player's perspective when it comes to this because we know the level of safety play and kicking could be so much higher. While their offensive games are unbelievably strong, even pro players give up BIH or sell out way too much from mediocre safeties that would have to be much tighter against good kickers. It's just now with the jump cues the mediocre safeties don't cut it anymore. They should never have cut it in the first place IMO.
I like jump cues and the extra, um, dimension they add to the game
I think it forces everyone to play better. I rarely use them, though, since kicking is usually a better option with more control for me. When you jump you're accuracy is reduced since you never know just how high off the table you'll contact the OB (unless it's far enough away that you're rolling again.) Robert
Yeah I guess all the top pros that play each other and use a jump cue 10 times a set...and hit the object ball almost every time need to practice their safeties more too
10 would be an overstatment. And yes if theyre leaving enough room for someone to jump over it then they need to pracitce theyre safties too.
But leaving em a jump isnt always a bad thing either. Its a low percentage shot, like freezing the cueball and the object ball on opposite sides of the table. Its a low percentage bank. Sometimes that all you can do.
At least they dont cry about the other guy being a better jumper or breaker or kicker than them. They go out and practice it more.Thats why theyre pros. But I guess if all your hustling is the mailman and the painters and lawn guys then play any rules you want.
Tap,Tap,Tap
Thats all I was trying to say, What "used" to be a good saftey isnt anymore and some guys just cant stand it. Instead of playing better safties theyd rather outlaw the jump cue. And youll benifit from the jump cue just as much as youll get beat by it. Like slopping a ball in playing 9 ball. Over time the rolls will even out.
I remember quite distinctly one time I was at a tournament where Mr. Strickland was giving an exhibition and he was famously ranting about his dislike of jump cues.
After the exhibition he set up a one rail kick shot and proceeded to miss it several times. I foolishly offered him some advice about using a simple system that pretty much guaranteed a hit on that shot every time. He wouldn't listen, said something about being a World Champion and proceeded to shoot it a few more times and finally made the shot.
My friend and I walked to another table and I set up the same shot - used the system taught to me by Jimmy Reid - and made it on the first try. Subsequently I shot at it three or four more times and hit the ball every time.
My point with this story is that no one has to be a weak kicker. You just have to take advantage of the immense amount of information out there and learn the systems.
I have seen Mr. Tom Rossmann do clinics where he literally takes c-class players and makes them into world class kickers in ten minutes by teaching them some diamond systems. This is not information that takes years to learn. Certainly it takes time to learn the subtle parts of kicking such as how to judge the table and rails, how to adjust for spin and speed, and so on. But it is possible for anyone who can count and who can remember simple rules to learn to kick with amazing accuracy in a matter of minutes.
The jump cue allows any person with a decent stroke to make the cue ball go over another ball fairly easily. And that is where the advantage of having a jump cue versus not having one stops. It is a physically daunting task to jump a ball without a jump cue. The range of possible shots are limited greatly by the person's physical ability, by their skill, and even by the type of cue they are using, i.e. a Predator shafted cue "jumps" far worse than a Tim Scruggs for example.
So the jump cue does make that aspect easier just as having a tip with chalk makes it easier to apply spin than playing without a tip.
A player must still master at least the very basics of speed control to jump only to achieve a hit on the object ball. This by itself is skill although low grade variety.
If a c-class player buys a jump cue and learns just enough to be able to judge the speed and angle of the hit to clear most object balls and they use this instead of kicking when kicking would be the appropriate shot then it is my opinion that they are not only not going up in class as a player due to having a jump cue but they are relegating themselves to c-class dipping down into d-class. I say this because they have forgotten that no tool can be a substitute for mastery of that tool.
No diamond system automatically makes a player a world class kicker. Only truly ingesting and learning that system to the point where it is habit and one can then build on it makes one a world class kicker.
The same applies to the jump cue. Merely owning one and learning the very basics of it's use is the same as a would be house builder who tries to build a house with one hammer and one type of nails only.
I personally would never ban the use of jump cues at my house. Whenever a person plays me who is improperly using the jump cue, or who uses it when he should kick, I take the opportunity to instruct them in the proper use or proper choice. If they don't know how to kick then I will instruct them in the use of the diamond system or whichever system is appropriate. Where they take it from there is up to them.
For myself I think of it as a personal challenge to outplay an exceptional jumper. I also will out think a weak jumper by intentionally giving them jump shots that have high sell-out chances.
I have sadly seen quite a few professional players miss easy jump shots because they too buy into the idea that the jump cue does all the work. On the other hand I have seen many pros who are very very accomplished with the jump cue. These pros always please the crowd with their well played masterful jump shots. In their hands there is no doubt that the jump cue is a tool which brings a lot more to the modern game of pocket billiards.
After the exhibition he set up a one rail kick shot and proceeded to miss it several times. I foolishly offered him some advice about using a simple system that pretty much guaranteed a hit on that shot every time. He wouldn't listen, said something about being a World Champion and proceeded to shoot it a few more times and finally made the shot.
My friend and I walked to another table and I set up the same shot - used the system taught to me by Jimmy Reid - and made it on the first try. Subsequently I shot at it three or four more times and hit the ball every time.
My point with this story is that no one has to be a weak kicker. You just have to take advantage of the immense amount of information out there and learn the systems.
I have seen Mr. Tom Rossmann do clinics where he literally takes c-class players and makes them into world class kickers in ten minutes by teaching them some diamond systems. This is not information that takes years to learn. Certainly it takes time to learn the subtle parts of kicking such as how to judge the table and rails, how to adjust for spin and speed, and so on. But it is possible for anyone who can count and who can remember simple rules to learn to kick with amazing accuracy in a matter of minutes.
The jump cue allows any person with a decent stroke to make the cue ball go over another ball fairly easily. And that is where the advantage of having a jump cue versus not having one stops. It is a physically daunting task to jump a ball without a jump cue. The range of possible shots are limited greatly by the person's physical ability, by their skill, and even by the type of cue they are using, i.e. a Predator shafted cue "jumps" far worse than a Tim Scruggs for example.
So the jump cue does make that aspect easier just as having a tip with chalk makes it easier to apply spin than playing without a tip.
A player must still master at least the very basics of speed control to jump only to achieve a hit on the object ball. This by itself is skill although low grade variety.
If a c-class player buys a jump cue and learns just enough to be able to judge the speed and angle of the hit to clear most object balls and they use this instead of kicking when kicking would be the appropriate shot then it is my opinion that they are not only not going up in class as a player due to having a jump cue but they are relegating themselves to c-class dipping down into d-class. I say this because they have forgotten that no tool can be a substitute for mastery of that tool.
No diamond system automatically makes a player a world class kicker. Only truly ingesting and learning that system to the point where it is habit and one can then build on it makes one a world class kicker.
The same applies to the jump cue. Merely owning one and learning the very basics of it's use is the same as a would be house builder who tries to build a house with one hammer and one type of nails only.
I personally would never ban the use of jump cues at my house. Whenever a person plays me who is improperly using the jump cue, or who uses it when he should kick, I take the opportunity to instruct them in the proper use or proper choice. If they don't know how to kick then I will instruct them in the use of the diamond system or whichever system is appropriate. Where they take it from there is up to them.
For myself I think of it as a personal challenge to outplay an exceptional jumper. I also will out think a weak jumper by intentionally giving them jump shots that have high sell-out chances.
I have sadly seen quite a few professional players miss easy jump shots because they too buy into the idea that the jump cue does all the work. On the other hand I have seen many pros who are very very accomplished with the jump cue. These pros always please the crowd with their well played masterful jump shots. In their hands there is no doubt that the jump cue is a tool which brings a lot more to the modern game of pocket billiards.
it takes more skill and knowledge to kick well than it does to jump well with a short cue and a phenolic tip. jumping should only be allowed with a full cue with a leather tip.
My apologies. I didn't mean at all to imply that I was anywhere near Mr. Strickland's speed. I have known him for 20 years and been in awe of his game for 20 years.
However in this one instance he was missing the shot multiple times and I stupidly offered to "show him something" that I knew.
All I wanted to say is that with the kicking system I knew, as taught to me personally by Jimmy Reid I can hit the ball that Mr. Strickland was kicking at 100% of the time and make it perhaps 10-20% of the time.
Now, if Mr. Strickland and I were to play a match I am sure that I would hit that ball every time and equally sure that I miss the next 2ft straight in shot I had.
I have no qualifications in this game. I have done the road in one way or another for 3 decades. I have mixed it up with all levels of players, won some and lost most. I realize that I am not even close to the best of the players on this forum which is why I do not offer much in the way of advice.
I was merely relating some instances where jumping and kicking have come up in my travels.
If you don't believe me about Mr. Rossman's ability to impart kicking systems that truly work then I would suggest highly that you seek him out. I have seen him do his lessons in both public and private sessions with amazing results.
And beyond that diamond systems are very old, they are geometrically correct and it is my understanding that most three-cushion players learn them as a starting point to their game.
I stand by my statement that any competent player who can aim at a fixed point, shoot the cue ball in straight line to that point and who can count, add and subtract is capable of becoming a decent kicker in very short order, as in less than one hour if he has the proper instruction, be it book, video, or personal coach.
Will that newfound ability mean that this player will be able to execute perfect kick shots in game situations right afterward? He or she will certainly be able to execute more kicks than they were able to without instruction. But of course they won't know how to add a touch of english here and a tad more speed there. They won't know which side of the ball to kick to or how to use reverse and running english. All that comes with dedicated practice and experience.
Just as the jump cue gives a player a head start by taking a lot of the physical limitations away from the jump shot a kicking system gives a player a head start by taking the guesswork out and replacing it with fixed references from which a player can then adjust.
As for Mr. Strickland. I am quite sure that if he had been in a match situation that he would have hit that ball 100% of the time. As I said, I foolishly offered him advice.
Know the angles of the table first.......
True a lot of players nowadays opt first and foremost the jump shot cuz its easier. In a lot of cases it actually is better for a person to jump a shot because of obstructing balls in the path of the kick but it definitely shows experience and true knowledge of the rails and the angles when a person can kick at the intended ball with precision. I personally only jump when absolutely necessary, kicking is my first choice. Worked for bata, why not me, right?
True a lot of players nowadays opt first and foremost the jump shot cuz its easier. In a lot of cases it actually is better for a person to jump a shot because of obstructing balls in the path of the kick but it definitely shows experience and true knowledge of the rails and the angles when a person can kick at the intended ball with precision. I personally only jump when absolutely necessary, kicking is my first choice. Worked for bata, why not me, right?