Weak kickers with jump cue jump from "C" to "B"

[Roadie]

You're friends with Earl for twenty years? Or are you aware of his existence? Because, judging by the context of the opening paragraph of your earlier post, you think lowly of his kicking game, and want others to share your opinion, as evident with the scenario you retold of earl missing a one rail kick shot several times. Then you set up the same shot and executed it better than Earl? This doesn't make any sense. :banghead:

On top of that you berated his character, by slipping in his self proclamation of world champion status comment when he refused to listen to your advice.

I don't like a lot of people. But I like Earl because he's just my kinda guy. He's a classic kinda guy. You're blessed!

Here's a video of Earl, I hope it cracks you up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbNdcCdYMNM
:grin:


Sad thing is even through all the condescending remarks by people (mainly peers), Jerks who put youtube videos disrespecting him, he still says he wants to bring home trophys and win championships. I just hope his spirit is not completely broken, because when that day comes, The pool world has one less true champion. They don't come by often. Pay attention to his voice at the end and his eyes he sounds pretty worn out. What a champ!

I am sorry if I offended you. My remarks were not intended that way. I have known Mr. Strickland for twenty years. We have had lengthy conversations many times.

This is one reason why I felt comfortable enough to stupidly offer him some advice.

I was merely using the situation that occurred to illustrate a point that even a player such as myself who is not in Mr. Strickland's league can still learn and use a kicking system which guarantees me the ability to kick and hit just about any ball anywhere on the table at any time.

I used this particular situation because it is well known that Mr. Strickland has a bias against jump cues and I thought that it fit the context of the discussion.

Again, my apologies for offending you.

 

[rbpwrd240]

Dont be Scared

There is a time when a jump is appropriate. You should never limit a player for fear of his success. Maybe you dont jump as good as they do and dont want to see them beat you with there skill. I would say that the game has evolved and to go backwards is silly.

There are diffrent aspects to a persons game.

I.E. Aggressive players, Slow players. Safty players, Run out players. It just depends how your hitting them right then to decide which of these you are going to be. If you dont use and know all the skills and tactics then you are limiting yourself. To not use these skills to get success against all players no matter what there skill level is, is a dire mistake.

If you dont want to see someone pull out a jump cue then get better safes. If your frozen to the ball you cant jump it. :wink:

Alex

 

[Celtic]

Instead of instituting a rule to give yourself and advantage maybe you should tighten up your safety game. If your leaving em enough room to jump then your safeties aren't that good. Obviously good safeties weren't a part of the "old" game of pool

You are missing the point, the balance of a "good" safety and a "good" safety escape has been destroyed by the introduction of jump cues. One now has to make a ridiculously good safety to stop an opponent from having an easy jump shot.

If the jump shot were more difficult, aka with a full length cue, or the person was forced to play a kick or masse, there would be a balance between the difficulty of playing the safety and the playing of the safety excape.

But atm the challenge of playing a safety that actually gives the incomming player a difficult escape is completely out of proportion due to the existense of jump cues. Why should being hooked on a decent safety that someone had to come off 3 rails with the cueball and control the object ball on be as easy as a simple jump shot to escape because you did not freeze the cueball to the blocker off that third bloody rail? I mean give me a break, the guy playing the safety did a hell of alot more work then the guy who just shrugs and yanks out his jump cue that he saw a 6 year old making full ball jumps with at the Frog booth in Vegas within 5 minutes because the cue trivializes the game to that degree and those cues are bloody marketed as being that bloody trivial to use by the people who even build them.

Plus, what the heck is a masse shot? I think I saw a black and white video of some old guy shooting something they called a "masse", but for the life of me since the invention of the jump cue I have not seen that shot played, it has basically been removed from the game via a gimmick cue.

 

[skor]

If the jump shot were more difficult, aka with a full length cue, or the person was forced to play a kick or masse, there would be a balance between the difficulty of playing the safety and the playing of the safety excape.

I disagree!
In a race to 9 (playing 9ball) you would see the use of a jump cue maybe 5 times by each player, but you see more safety shots and more kicks. So I don't think that the "balance" was disrupted as much as you claim....

I do think that now days you need to come up with better safeties but not much better as most think, you don't have to freeze the CB to the blocking ball each time (although that would be perfect), it is usually enough to just get some distance or leave the OB in a non pocketable position, good player will go for the kick 95% of the times if there is no pocket available to make the jump shot (unless the kick is not there or has a very low percentage).

but again I want to leave the pros and top players out of this discussion as the original post was referring to amateurs. When amateurs jump it's a "hit or miss" situation there is a good chance that nothing good will come out of it so I don't think that this what will make a weak player a better player or will give them the needed edge to win and beat better players that do not jump (or just don't like it...)

 

[Roadie]

You are missing the point, the balance of a "good" safety and a "good" safety escape has been destroyed by the introduction of jump cues. One now has to make a ridiculously good safety to stop an opponent from having an easy jump shot.

If the jump shot were more difficult, aka with a full length cue, or the person was forced to play a kick or masse, there would be a balance between the difficulty of playing the safety and the playing of the safety excape.

But atm the challenge of playing a safety that actually gives the incomming player a difficult escape is completely out of proportion due to the existense of jump cues. Why should being hooked on a decent safety that someone had to come off 3 rails with the cueball and control the object ball on be as easy as a simple jump shot to escape because you did not freeze the cueball to the blocker off that third bloody rail? I mean give me a break, the guy playing the safety did a hell of alot more work then the guy who just shrugs and yanks out his jump cue that he saw a 6 year old making full ball jumps with at the Frog booth in Vegas within 5 minutes because the cue trivializes the game to that degree and those cues are bloody marketed as being that bloody trivial to use by the people who even build them.

Plus, what the heck is a masse shot? I think I saw a black and white video of some old guy shooting something they called a "masse", but for the life of me since the invention of the jump cue I have not seen that shot played, it has basically been removed from the game via a gimmick cue.

Sir,

If a six year old is making jump shots with a jump cue then that is one talented six year old. I stood by and watched grown men struggle to learn how to jump using a jump cue.

Last night I played for almost ten hours. In that time my opponent and I played many jump shots, most of them somewhat successful, many kick shots, and many half-masse shots.

I believe it was Ray Martin who said in his book that the full masse shot is rarely, as in never needed, in high level pool.

The jump cue has democratized the game in that it has taken a previously difficult area of the game and made it into an area that is accessible to all.

Now, although it does not require superhuman ability or physical prowess to jump, it still requires a lot of practice to master.

The same thing applies to kicking as I mentioned in my previous post. Easy to learn due to a plethora of systems that work, hard to master due to lots of variables.

I have to say that in my personal play I have practiced tighter safeties diligently and quite often I am very successful at taking away the jump shot. Sometimes I deliberately leave one when I know that my opponent is weak at controlling the cue ball on the jump shot. Such as when the object ball is close to a rail, then the jumping player will often jump the cue ball off the table.

I, on the other hand can jump with draw and thus stop the cue ball's bounce making it easy for me to jump effectively when the object ball is close to a rail.

I personally feel that I am a much much better player than I was ten years ago when I didn't own a jump cue nor did I try very hard to freeze the cue ball to the blocking balls when playing safe.

Now, I am much more aware of taking away jump and kick shots in my defensive play. And in my offensive play I practice how to get out of safeties using both jump shots and kick shots. I feel that my game is well rounded because of it and I appreciate the fact that I have a lot of different jump shots, including jump-draw, jump follow, jump with side spin, jump-kicks, and jump stop shots in my arsenal.

And last night I played a fantastic two rail kick safe that I had learned from watching Efren Reyes a few days prior.

 

[robleyf7]

i agree i my self would rather kiick or bank to hit or make a ball jump cues are worthless to me it don.t take talent to jump a ball but takes alot of time talent too kick or bank a ball 1-2-3 rails

 

[Wolven]

Must admit I have not looked at all the posts.
I can understand not wanting someone to destroy your table.
I wouldn't let anyone under A jump on my table either.
However, if all you want is an advantage while playing someone than that's another story.
I find that most weak players can fluke out safeties and hide behind balls by chance.
If they knew what the hell they were doing than they wouldn't leave jump shots available.
Jumping is part of the game as much as kicking.
It doesn't make the kids you face any less of a player or a mathematician for that matter.
Anyway, guys that talk math while playing pool are sort of funny.......
Well, that's my vent for the evening............

 

[Celtic]

The jump cue has democratized the game in that it has taken a previously difficult area of the game and made it into an area that is accessible to all.

That is a comical way of putting it.

Translation:

"the jump cue has made it so that many players who are not able to master difficult aspect of billiards such as kicking and masse shots are now able to become quite good at using a jump cue and mitigate that skill advantage of the other player to a large degree".

Now we need to switch to 10 inch pockets to get rid of that pesky problem that some people have with aiming and we are set.

We might want to add a positive charged magnet to the cueball and a positive charged magnet to the back of the pockets as well, some people don't play as good shape as others and tend to scratch, it would be nice to mitigate their lack of ability in that regard too.

Awesome idea, now anyone want to go play a video-game on God-mode? Zero chance of dying!!! Woot, only way to play!

I golfed a 32 today on a 18 hole course, 6 holes in 1, it was sweet. Tiger should learn to mini-putt, much better game then that crap he does on those big courses, what is the point? That shit looks hard.

Anyways, going to play some darts, I stand 3 feet from the board, that standard distance was lame, the board was too far away and hitting certain parts of the board is way easier now.

 

[Roadie]

That is a comical way of putting it.

Translation:

"the jump cue has made it so that many players who are not able to master difficult aspect of billiards such as kicking and masse shots are now able to become quite good at using a jump cue and mitigate that skill advantage of the other player to a large degree".

Now we need to switch to 10 inch pockets to get rid of that pesky problem that some people have with aiming and we are set.

We might want to add a positive charged magnet to the cueball and a positive charged magnet to the back of the pockets as well, some people don't play as good shape as others and tend to scratch, it would be nice to mitigate their lack of ability in that regard too.

Awesome idea, now anyone want to go play a video-game on God-mode? Zero chance of dying!!! Woot, only way to play!

I golfed a 32 today on a 18 hole course, 6 holes in 1, it was sweet. Tiger should learn to mini-putt, much better game then that crap he does on those big courses, what is the point? That shit looks hard.

Anyways, going to play some darts, I stand 3 feet from the board, that standard distance was lame, the board was too far away and hitting certain parts of the board is way easier now.

You may see it that way and obviously your mind is made up on this subject.

I personally see it as another aspect of the game under the current rules of one-foul awarding ball in hand to the incoming player.

If jumping balls is allowed then allow a jump cue for that purpose is how I see it.

After all a break cue is allowed, you are allowed to switch shafts ad infinitum. I suppose if a person truly does believe that a jump cue by itself makes a person a better player because of how it works then one has to be for banning all such cues and shaft which make any claim whatsoever that they perform better, such as Predator, OB1, Tiger, Kamui, Moori, etc...

For myself I just see it as a tool that I have to master.

This subject always goes on endlessly. I have read on here that someone compared the jump cue to the invention of the leather tip. Prior to the invention of the leather tip it was very difficult to apply spin.

I suppose that if one does accept the premise that a jump cue (or a chalked tip) does indeed raise a player from a C to a B then wouldn't it also raise a B to an A and and A to a Pro?

 

[Roadie]

That is a comical way of putting it.

Translation:

"the jump cue has made it so that many players who are not able to master difficult aspect of billiards such as kicking and masse shots are now able to become quite good at using a jump cue and mitigate that skill advantage of the other player to a large degree".

We need to differentiate between offensive and defensive play. Owning a jump cue does not lessen an opponent's offensive skill at masse or kicking.

Having a jump cue and being somewhat proficient with it does force a player to have a very good defensive game. And anything that forces a player to improve his or her skill is a good thing.

Prior to the introduction of Texas Express one-foul rules players did not need to learn to kick because any player could push out at any time. Players had to learn to be amazing shot makers because one would push to a difficult shot.

In the Phillipines by contrast they played Rotation where they had to kick at balls a lot so they developed a greater skill at kicking balls.

With the advent of Texas Express rules players were forced to learn to kick balls and improve their jumping. Now a player could defeat a shot maker by playing relatively lax safeties knowing that the opponent's kicking skills were not so great. As kicking skills improved so did the need to learn to play tighter safeties.

Jump cues were around since the mid-80s. They didn't get vilified until they got truly effective. Now the safety game had to be tightened even more.

As well the range of offensive shots was greatly increased with the advent of the jump cue. So now the game has been improved by the addition of more shots and by forcing players to improve their defensive skill.

To me that is a good thing. As I said before I am very proud of all the skills I have acquired through practice. I am an accomplished jumper because I practiced until I could master this tool. I am a great kicker because I have studied the systems and internalized them. I play better safeties because I have studied and practiced how to best position the cue ball in order to take away the jumping and kicking opportunities.

I don't see how forcing players to improve their skill set denigrates the game.

 

[Roadie]

Its unsettling not being able to piss you off. :angry: You're way too nice.


Whats so artful about striking the cue ball with a phenolic tip? If you want your six year old to do something that takes talent involving striking something to watch it go airborne, he should take up ping-pong or baseball. Or better, just make hurdles for the balls, draw a finish line at the end rail, and you got yourself another sport.

There is nothing particularly artful about striking anything with a phenolic tip or a leather tip. It's the wielder of the cue that makes the art.

When Corey Duel shoots a table length shot and draws the cue ball back table length and out to the middle of the table for perfect shape in a three inch window we don't denigrate that wonderful shot because Corey uses a cue that has been developed to allow him the opportunity to execute that shot.

Take that same pool cue that Corey used and hand it to me and I will be lucky to draw the cue ball three feet four times out of ten.

The same thing applies to the jump cue. It is just the tool. I assume by your comments that you are an accomplished player. If so then you must admit that there are varying degrees of skill with players who use jump cues. I am certain that you have seen some who are very precise and skilled with it and plenty of players who flail away hoping to just hit the ball.

Whenever this subject comes up and I happen to read about it then it seems as if the main objection to the jump cue by those who don't like it is that it makes jumping too easy. The obvious comparison, as stated by some other member, is that using a chalked leather tip makes the application of spin too easy. Both tools allow for a greater variety of shots to made, neither of them do the actual shooting.

Just as Captain Mignaud and Jack Carr discovered and developed the leather tip and chalk respectively, those that have refined jump cues since the mid-80's have discovered that phenolic or similarly hard materials work best for the task. They provide the tools, the player provides the artistry.

 

[Celtic]

I suppose if a person truly does believe that a jump cue by itself makes a person a better player because of how it works then one has to be for banning all such cues and shaft which make any claim whatsoever that they perform better, such as Predator, OB1, Tiger, Kamui, Moori, etc...

There is a BIG difference between "hey look, I got a new shaft with a slightly different taper and a 3 inch hollow section under the ferrule, or hey look at my new tip, it has 11 layers and holds chalk pretty well and rarely mushrooms!" and "Hey look, I just got a cue that is 18 inches shorter then a standard cue and that can bounce the cueball over a blocking ball changing a key aspect of the game such that no other piece of equipment ever has to date!". You seriously cannot see the difference?

I don't see how forcing players to improve their skill set denigrates the game.

You are doing the exact opposite, you are allowing them to not improve their skill set in aspects of kicking and masse shots that take years to adequately learn and instead giving them the ability to use a jump cue that anyone with half a stroke can become 90% of peak effectiveness with within an hour. Instead of forcing players to gain a difficult skill set to become competitive at the sport you are allowing them an alternative.

This game NEEDS to be a game of skill if we want to see both the amature and professional levels of interest increase. ATM the game becomes too much of a coin flip at the professional levels of competition and pool is missing out on the advantages of having it's own Federer or Tiger Woods that rises to the top of the sport and dominates, giving people a sports hero to watch. ATM pool cannot create that because of the nature of the game creating a balance at the top of the sport, the game is too easy for the top players and thus the matches become coin flips, and noone can dominate a coin flip sport. Part of the problem is jump cues, virtually every pro player is highly effective with a jump cue as they are fairly easy to master and thus the benefits of a strong kicking and/or safety game that use to differentiate between players in a match is now marginalized.

This game needs to reward true hard earned skill in order to increase it's popularity to the viewing public, and a jump cue that takes little practice or talent to become very effective in it's use is most definately the WRONG direction this sport needs to be taking at this time.

 

[Junkyarddog]

To put another view on it how would someone feel about this comment? Just like banning jump cues this is ridiculous too.

"I think we should ban simonis cloth too makes english too easy to apply. Now anybody can draw the length of the table and back. In the old days only the people who worked really hard could do it on felt."

 

[Celtic]

When Corey Duel shoots a table length shot and draws the cue ball back table length and out to the middle of the table for perfect shape in a three inch window we don't denigrate that wonderful shot because Corey uses a cue that has been developed to allow him the opportunity to execute that shot.

Here is the kicker. Corey's shot was made with a standard cue and the success of that shot was the result of a tremendous natural talent and level of skill.

The cue allows the opportunity to make a shot like that, but it is not designed to make that specific shot. Corey needed to use a standard piece of equipment in a specific fashion to make that shot.

The jump cue on the other hand is designed to make a specific type of shot. It is a non-standard piece of equipment used to make one very specific type of shot easier.

Big difference there, I am all for having the full length cue jump shots such as Earl once played be a aspect of the game, it takes a tremendous amount of skill to make a jump shot with a full length cue over anything but a edge of a ball.

Using a standard piece of equippment to create amazing results is part of the artistry of the game of pool. Using a non-standard piece of equippment developed to make a specific type of shot easier removes alot of the artistry and skill from the game.

 

[Roadie]

I just play this game man, don't compete outside weekly tourneys at the local room every other week or so. But I'm not a sucker either. I had this type of conversation not so long ago with an airhead about reality that lead to nowhere. But you seem to be intelligent, so I'll tell you my opinion of what is artful, under the condition your rebuttal not be that people have different taste in art. And that we agree there is a specific definition.


I like this definition:

The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.


According to Rand, art tells man, in effect, which aspects of his experience are to be regarded as essential, significant, important. In this sense, art teaches man how to use his consciousness. It conditions or stylizes man’s consciousness by conveying to him a certain way of looking at existence.

From my life, I've gathered that what is most essential, significant, and important, is all that supports, sustains, or prolongs my life. What makes me conscious of these values are my senses.

With sight I like seeing bright clean balls on a well kept table because it..well I can't think of a specific reason...I just like em.

Sound is my most important sense of reality. Just like a melody has the specific purpose of not letting my mind go astray, the sound of pool balls has its specifics, and I would like to hear this whenever I'm in a poolhall. Kinda like hearing a crisp one pocket break while you're sipping a nice refreshing soda pop. You can tell how clean the break is just from the sound...or if it was a bad collision, you can hear and tell also.


Hey man, I'm getting really sleepy and can can hardly think. This is going to take awhile, and my eyes are about to pop can't take anymore of this screen. If I have to write a report to prove a point on a forum...it ain't no fun. Peace!

Peace. I agree with you and happen to think that a well played shot, be it a jump shot, kick shot, or just the perfect stop shot at the right moment is art.

 

[Roadie]

Here is the kicker. Corey's shot was made with a standard cue and the success of that shot was the result of a tremendous natural talent and level of skill.

The cue allows the opportunity to make a shot like that, but it is not designed to make that specific shot. Corey needed to use a standard piece of equipment in a specific fashion to make that shot.

The jump cue on the other hand is designed to make a specific type of shot. It is a non-standard piece of equipment used to make one very specific type of shot easier.

Big difference there, I am all for having the full length cue jump shots such as Earl once played be a aspect of the game, it takes a tremendous amount of skill to make a jump shot with a full length cue over anything but a edge of a ball.

Using a standard piece of equippment to create amazing results is part of the artistry of the game of pool. Using a non-standard piece of equippment developed to make a specific type of shot easier removes alot of the artistry and skill from the game.

I believe that we are too fundamentally opposed to come to an agreement but I fully enjoy the repartee.

Using your example, a "standard" pool cue is an object that has been designed to do one thing exceptionally well, impart force and spin to an object ball in a comfortable and ergonomic manner for the user. No other object on Earth is as good for that task in a consistent manner as a "standard" pool cue. Can we agree on this premise?

Now, let's take the specific task of jumping a ball as a subset of the overall game of billiards.

For this purpose the "standard" jump cue is an object that has been designed to do one thing exceptionally well, impart force and spin to an object ball in a comfortable and ergonomic manner for the user. No other object on Earth is as good for that task in a consistent manner as a "standard" jump cue.

Sidebar: On the use of the word "standard". A standard is commonly thought of as the accepted and most widely used practice in any endeavor. On the subject of jump cues, they have been in use as short versions, i.e. jump handles and shafts for around 20 years now. The current versions are the state of the art and as such, after 20 years in constant development and use are the standard.

Now, if we can agree on the two definitions above we can move on to discuss your interpretation of Corey's shot.

Here is the kicker. Corey's shot was made with a standard cue and the success of that shot was the result of a tremendous natural talent and level of skill.

The cue allows the opportunity to make a shot like that, but it is not designed to make that specific shot. Corey needed to use a standard piece of equipment in a specific fashion to make that shot.

Actually the cue is designed to make that shot in that the cue makes the shot possible. Take Corey Duell and give him a broomstick and you find 100 of 100 people willing to give you 100:1 odds against Corey Duell making that shot using that instrument.

The only way for Corey to have any chance to do it is to use the cue designed to allow him to make the maximum use of his abilities.

Similarly, if we take a standard jump cue, a cue designed for jumping, and give it to Corey Duell then he can accomplish shots that mere mortals like me, despite all the hours I put in, can dream of.

However, and this I believe is your fundamental problem with a jump cue, if Mr. Duell and I were to have a jump shot contest and I were allowed a jump cue and he were not then I would beat him easily.

But, in a world where everyone is allowed to use the same equipment and equipment is no longer an issue then a person like me will never beat a professional player because the skill gap is too great.

You say that you are ok with jumping as long as it is done with a full cue.

Are you aware that some full cues are better suited to jumping balls than others? So is it not an inherent advantage if you take two equally skilled players who are both using only full length cues and one of them has a cues that "jumps" better than the other?

Isn't it better if both players have access to equipment that is nearly identical in performance so that only their skill is the determining factor?

If you agree with this then you should be in favor of jump cues because they bring the opportunity to every player equally.

 

[Roadie]

There is a BIG difference between "hey look, I got a new shaft with a slightly different taper and a 3 inch hollow section under the ferrule, or hey look at my new tip, it has 11 layers and holds chalk pretty well and rarely mushrooms!" and "Hey look, I just got a cue that is 18 inches shorter then a standard cue and that can bounce the cueball over a blocking ball changing a key aspect of the game such that no other piece of equipment ever has to date!". You seriously cannot see the difference?

Of course I can. So your point is that the jump works and so it should be banned? My point is where do you draw the line and who gets to draw it?

Do you agree that the introduction of a leather tip changed the game fundamentally? How about the use of chalk?

Do you know why we called side spin "english"?

A man named English Jack Carr (because he was English) traveled around America giving exhibitions of his incredible skill with a pool cue. His secret weapon? Chalk. What if the fledgling pool associations back then had said, "hey, chalk works and makes players better so let's ban it - the only skilled shot is one made without chalk."?

You are doing the exact opposite, you are allowing them to not improve their skill set in aspects of kicking and masse shots that take years to adequately learn and instead giving them the ability to use a jump cue that anyone with half a stroke can become 90% of peak effectiveness with within an hour. Instead of forcing players to gain a difficult skill set to become competitive at the sport you are allowing them an alternative.

You are mixing things. A jump cue adds to a player's range of shots. It does not prevent anyone from learning how to kick or masse. Well rounded players learn these things because they need them in order to be complete players.

Also your assertion that a player can achieve 90% peak effectiveness within an hour of owning a jump cue is not correct at all. If we could dispense with sensational and inaccurate statements like this we could discuss this topic rationally.

This game NEEDS to be a game of skill if we want to see both the amature and professional levels of interest increase. ATM the game becomes too much of a coin flip at the professional levels of competition and pool is missing out on the advantages of having it's own Federer or Tiger Woods that rises to the top of the sport and dominates, giving people a sports hero to watch. ATM pool cannot create that because of the nature of the game creating a balance at the top of the sport, the game is too easy for the top players and thus the matches become coin flips, and noone can dominate a coin flip sport. Part of the problem is jump cues, virtually every pro player is highly effective with a jump cue as they are fairly easy to master and thus the benefits of a strong kicking and/or safety game that use to differentiate between players in a match is now marginalized.

I think that you are delving into another subject and also giving the jump cue and subsequent jump shots more importance than they actually have as something that is impacting the game in the eyes of the public. But if you did want to make that argument then I pose the opposing view that any device that makes the game more skillful by adding a wider range of shots is a good thing for the game.

This game needs to reward true hard earned skill in order to increase it's popularity to the viewing public, and a jump cue that takes little practice or talent to become very effective in it's use is most definately the WRONG direction this sport needs to be taking at this time.

Pool at it's highest level looks easy. Sadly that is part of the problem with the public, they don't want to watch something that they think that they could do just as easily.

Most people don't have any idea what is hard and what is not in pool.

Let me ask you this as one final point though, you are focusing on the performance of the cue, as in I think we both agree that the current standard jump cue works exceptionally well.

So, knowing that running out in pool, say nine ball, just running nine balls in order is skillful task from shot to shot, would you say that it would take more or less skill to run the table the same way if a player were forced to use a jump cue and had a blocking ball on each shot?

In other words every shot was exactly the same, the player had to pocket it and get shape on the next ball. Wouldn't it make sense that to add in the fact that a player had now calculate trajectory as well as speed and spin requires more skill and more talent to do it effectively and consistently?

 

[Celtic]

The only way for Corey to have any chance to do it is to use the cue designed to allow him to make the maximum use of his abilities.

A proper comparison of that particular shot to a jump cue would be IF Corey went to his bag and pulled out the super-juice 5000 that is specially designed to excel at creating backspin. A cue designed to do nothing else other then that particular type of shot and makes it vastly easier to do nothing but that specific type of shot.

Corey used a standard cue, aka a cue that he had been using that whole game, to make that shot. How may pro's do you see out there shooting ALL the shots in a game with a jump cue? Because I saw Corey use that cue he used to make that particular shot on all the rest of the shots in that match as well. AKA the cue was standard, it is not specialized into a specific segment or type of shot.

There is no such thing as the standard jump cue, by it's definition and name jump cues are developed to make a very specific and specialized type of shot, thus not standard, specialized.

Either way, this is debated ad nauseum on this forum, but at the end of the day these cues more then anything simply hurt this sport, creating less focus on more skill dependent aspects of the game and hurting the fans of the sport, the promotors and event organizers, and the players alike. This sport is going to keep going down in popularity as long as we keep allowing it to be marginalized and trivialized. The general public are not going to watch a sport that has been dumbed down to the degree billiards has been, and the jump cue is a part of that dumbing down of this game.

 

[Celtic]

You are mixing things. A jump cue adds to a player's range of shots. It does not prevent anyone from learning how to kick or masse. Well rounded players learn these things because they need them in order to be complete players.

No, read this slow.

Jump cues allow the jump shot to replace a huge percentage of the shots that would traditionally required either a kick or masse shot to contact the appropriate object ball.

Without the jump cue many shot are impossible to jump with a full length cue or beyond the level of difficulty where one would consider a jump shot.

Jump cues have reduced the benefit of a high level of skill in masse or kicking because the jump shot with a jump cue is relatively easy compared to the other two skill sets and thus has replaced both for a large number of shots.

 

[Roadie]

A proper comparison of that particular shot to a jump cue would be IF Corey went to his bag and pulled out the super-juice 5000 that is specially designed to excel at creating backspin. A cue designed to do nothing else other then that particular type of shot.

Good point. And if he did have a SuperJuice 5000 then everyone else would have one as well and we would be back to who uses it the best.

Corey used a standard cue, aka a cue that he had been using that whole game, to make that shot. How may pro's do you see out there shooting ALL the shots in a game with a jump cue? Because I saw Corey use that cue he used to make that particular shot on all the rest of the shots in that match as well. AKA the cue was standard, it is not specialized into a specific segment or type of shot.

Ah, but you don't know how "standard" Corey's cue is. You don't know if for example he put a SuperJuice shaft on it right before he went to the table. Or what other tweaks he might have done to increase performance.

There is no such thing as the standard jump cue, by it's definition and name jump cues are developed to make a very specific and specialized type of shot, thus not standard, specialized.

I think that we are at odds here because you see the whole category as non-standard while I see it as an accepted piece of equipment that has gelled into a fairly standard item in terms of it's performance curve.

Either way, this is debated ad nauseum on this forum, but at the end of the day these cues more then anything simply hurt this sport, creating less focus on more skill dependent aspects of the game and hurting the fans of the sport, the promotors and event organizers, and the players alike.

This is your opinion and I am of the opposite opinion. My opinion is that the jump cue brings more shots to the game, these shots are exciting especially under pressure, they are crowd pleasers and are defintely something that even the public can appreciate as something that they are not able to do.

This sport is going to keep going down in popularity as long as we keep allowing it to be marginalized and trivialized. The general public are not going to watch a sport that has been dumbed down to the degree billiards has been, and the jump cue is a part of that dumbing down of this game.

Again this is really beyond the scope of the discussion and again I disagree.

The jump cue was added to the game by professional, world class players, in order to respond to a fundamental rule change. It was not added to dumb down the game but to add more shots and more opportunity for professional players to retain their control of the table when it's their turn.