Well the sledge hammer patent got me

JoeyInCali said:
Sounds like Mike Webb's design a few months ago.
Joey~Wonders what good is a hard break if the cueball doesn't squat after~

I've been doing something similar to that for around 10 years. When I install the ferrule I fill the bleed hole with leather shavings from tips with the epoxy. It isn't a separate leather tip that would give more playability but I figured by doing this I would get by the rules stipulation as there was now leather in the tip. I've mentioned this on this forum before.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
I've been doing something similar

Me too...if you HAVE to have some leather. I drill a 5/16 hole down through the leather tip, into the ferrule. Then install a 5/16 phenolic plug down into the hole. 100% of the phenolic performance. After its chalked it looks like a normal leather tip from every angle. You'd need a CSI team to figure out whats going on....:D
 
From what I could see the glue lines were better, ferrule now slightly different size (.625) and threaded on, all inserts are black phenolic except for Uni-Lock, and the tolerances are tighter due to improvements in new equipment and manufacturing process. Only available in 12.75mm with slightly longer taper. Even though I am extremely satisfied with select maple for cue shafts, I'm gonna try the Tiger-X Ultra. If I like them, I might sell them.

Tony is also working to increase the quality and consistency of his pig leather wraps. The last batch left something to be desired and he is working to make sure this doesn't occur again.

Martin



McChen said:
interesting concept, sounds like it might work out nicely. the power of phenolic and the control of leather. will have to try one when they come out.

martin, did you get any details on the ultra shaft? how is it different than the previous generation x-shaft
 
ferrule now slightly different size (.625) and threaded on,
That's a little too big for me.:)
New Sabre ferrule have regular 5/16 18 threaded hole and cap?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Sounds like Mike Webb's design a few months ago.
Joey~Wonders what good is a hard break if the cueball doesn't squat after~

Hi Joey
Your right, I put that up a while ago as an option to go around Mike's idea. I just figured it to be a good option for all to enjoy without headaches and letters. I use to think a patent was a good idea, then I joined the world of the Internet and forums, What a wake up call. Better to keep things locked up.
 
I don't know...the ferrules I saw were attached to shafts already. Maybe Corey will clarify. The ferrule used to have a male tenon on the older Tiger-X shaft I think. Maybe better to give that up and go with threaded maple tenon since Bob Dzuricky's mass index chart showed that Saber T is not among the lightest ferrule materials out there. Oh, and the tips are now mounted on tip pads. Propbably a dood idea to prolong ferrule length...especially with tip mechanics who face ferrules brutally.:eek:

Martin


JoeyInCali said:
ferrule now slightly different size (.625) and threaded on,
That's a little too big for me.:)
New Sabre ferrule have regular 5/16 18 threaded hole and cap?
 
I have wondered why we would want to break with phenolic. It gives a little more power, but seems uncontrollable for most for breaking, but jumps like nothing else can. So over a year ago I came up with a way to break with really hard leather and jump with phenolic. Best of both worlds. Sounds like Tiger might be doing something similar. My break jump cues have that on them now and have for over a year. I have a feeling the way I am doing it will become the standard in the future. And no, I am not even wasting my time or money trying to patent it. So come by my expo booth, look and feel free to copy. I will be in booth L18.
 
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for about 10 years before the phenolic craze i used to soak le pro or triangle in alcohol and pess the crap out of it. gets hard as a rock. breaks great with control
 
dave sutton said:
for about 10 years before the phenolic craze i used to soak le pro or triangle in alcohol and pess the crap out of it. gets hard as a rock. breaks great with control

Any particular kind??? tequila ok? :eek:
 
cueman said:
I have wondered why we would want to break with phenolic. It gives a little more power, but seems uncontrollable for most for breaking, but jumps like nothing else can. So over a year ago I came up with a way to break with really hard leather and jump with phenolic. Best of both worlds. Sounds like Tiger might be doing something similar. My break jump cues have that on them now and have for over a year. I have a feeling the way I am doing it will become the standard in the future. And no, I am not even wasting my time or money trying to patent it. So come by my expo booth, look and feel free to copy. I will be in booth L18.



I have felt this way for quite sometime now also. I like phenolic for jumping, because It gets the cue up in the air easier, but the loss of control during breaking is just not My cup of tea. I have given phenolic a good long try, broke with a sledge for a while, but too much loss of control, and I ended up selling the cue.
Alot of people have complained about the super pro's being too hard for shooting, and I aggree to a point, because You probably won't see me shooting with one, but I feel they are great for breaking, and what I have used to re-gain some control over the cueball. I even have one on My personal jumper, and It jumps balls well. I like the control It gives me there too, but It doesn't get the cue up as high in the air quite as easily as phenolic, so not for everyone, and I would still recomend phenolic on a jump cue. I'm of the school of thought- one cue for breaking & one cue for jumping. I am asked to build them all the time, but I'm not a fan of a B/J cue that does both. Maybe this is way of getting both, and the idea has actually crossed My mind before, but I haven't tried the leather/phenolic tip combo yet. Sounds like It's been working for some people here, maybe I should give It try sometime.

Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
I have felt this way for quite sometime now also. I like phenolic for jumping, because It gets the cue up in the air easier, but the loss of control during breaking is just not My cup of tea. I have given phenolic a good long try, broke with a sledge for a while, but too much loss of control, and I ended up selling the cue.
Alot of people have complained about the super pro's being too hard for shooting, and I aggree to a point, because You probably won't see me shooting with one, but I feel they are great for breaking, and what I have used to re-gain some control over the cueball. I even have one on My personal jumper, and It jumps balls well. I like the control It gives me there too, but It doesn't get the cue up as high in the air quite as easily as phenolic, so not for everyone, and I would still recomend phenolic on a jump cue. I'm of the school of thought- one cue for breaking & one cue for jumping. I am asked to build them all the time, but I'm not a fan of a B/J cue that does both. Maybe this is way of getting both, and the idea has actually crossed My mind before, but I haven't tried the leather/phenolic tip combo yet. Sounds like It's been working for some people here, maybe I should give It try sometime.

Greg
Greg,
Before I came up with the leather/phenolic combo I started impregnating tips in plastic. That produced a tip that jumped better than anything besides phenolic I had tired, but I still like a regular super hard leather tip for breaking. And phenolic still jumped better. So the leather in the middle with only a little phenolic exposed on the outside edge is the way to go. It really does give the best of both worlds. Sure the customer will have to have a tip put on once in a while, but the benefits are well worth it.
 
jazznpool said:
I saw a new jump/ break tip at Tiger Products Friday. It had a center of hard leather bordered with phenolic. Kind of like leather inlayed into phenolic. Sounds like an interesting concept that will meet requirments that a tip be made, at least partially, of leather. I think Tiger will be demonstrating them at the SBE along with their new Tiger-X Ultra shaft (their shaft quality went way up and is consistent). I plan to hit some balls with one of the new shafts so I can see for myself how they feel and play.

Martin


I had a break shaft 2 years ago that was phenolic surrounding a leather tip....so it's not a new idea....but hopefully it's made better than the one I had. It looked great, but just didn't work like it should have. It definitely didn't jump like a phenolic tip....in fact, it was easier to jump with a specially hardened leather tip....

I actually use a leather tip in kind of the same manner that Dave Sutton said....but I didn't soak it in alcohol....I hardened it a different way....
 
cueman said:
I have wondered why we would want to break with phenolic. It gives a little more power, but seems uncontrollable for most for breaking, but jumps like nothing else can. So over a year ago I came up with a way to break with really hard leather and jump with phenolic. Best of both worlds. Sounds like Tiger might be doing something similar. My break jump cues have that on them now and have for over a year. I have a feeling the way I am doing it will become the standard in the future. And no, I am not even wasting my time or money trying to patent it. So come by my expo booth, look and feel free to copy. I will be in booth L18.

So that means you will be notified to stop doing that when someone else gets it patented?
 
WilleeCue said:
So that means you will be notified to stop doing that when someone else gets it patented?
Yipes!
So if Eddie Prewitt puts out his Eddie's 747 again , MG might sue him?
Even though Eddie came out with a phenolic ferrule/tip eons before MG did.
 
WilleeCue said:
So that means you will be notified to stop doing that when someone else gets it patented?
I built the one piece tip/ferrule combo before Mike also, but it is not worth his time or my time to go to court. He would lose his patent and we both would be out of a lot of money in attorney and court costs. Same would be true with the next person. This system is better, so it is what I will use. If it was not better I might keep using the one piece combo and see what happens, since I know I used it in the mid 90's on my jump rods. Hopefully no one is stupid enough to waste their money trying to patent this idea also. Remember the Porcupine tapper? Two people thought that idea up at almost the exact same time. Porcupine won the patent rights and then someone else just copied it and dared him to sue them They still sell the stolen idea and he is out of business. How come he did not sue? Too expensive.
 
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WilleeCue said:
Do I understand this correctly?
Someone thinks they have an enforceable patent on making a ferrule from Canvas Phenolic?

Here are the facts from the public data bases:

U.S. Patent No. 7,097,570 was issued to Mike Gulyassay with three claims. The broadest of which is: ?1. A jump/break cue for jumping a cue ball and for breaking a rack of pool balls, said jump/break cue comprising: a shaft having a striking end region and a second end, wherein said shaft is progressively tapered so as to be more narrow towards said striking end region than said second end, said shaft comprising a tenon extending in one direction from said striking end region; and a one-piece ferrule-tip permanently disposed on said tenon of said striking end region of said shaft, said ferrule-tip comprising a cylindrical body extending in the one direction to form a hemispherically rounded crown and bore for permanently attaching said ferrule-tip to said tenon, said crown serving as the striking tip for a selected one of striking a cue ball and causing the cue ball to jump in response to the cue being inclined relative to a table where the cue ball is resting or driving the cue ball into a rack of balls to break the rack, wherein said ferrule-tip is made of a material having a hardness of 100 on the Shore-D scale.?

A dependent claim in this patent claims ABS.

If you look at the last 10 words or so of the patent claim, you?ll see that there is a severe limitation in the claim - - ?hardness of 100 on the Shore-D scale.? That is probably why he filed a continuation (daughter case) to gain broader coverage.

The daughter case to this patent is still being prosecuted in the U.S. patent office (11/506,324). That case has claims very similar to the issued patent, except the breadth is much broader and includes ? . . . having a material hardness of at least 100 on the Shore-D scale.? A dependent claim to this application includes C-grade phenolic. The record of this case is a bit odd to me in that some of the original claims have been rejected while some of them allowable, yet there is no real differentiation between the two types. We?ll have to wait in see if the patent office notices their logic error. My guess is that they will not and the patent will issue.

There is no recorded assignment or licensing for either the patent or the patent application, so any dealings with them has remained private.

To clear up an earlier notion, to infringe a patent, EVERY element of a claim must be practiced.

There is pre-grant protection available to patentees. Should the daughter patent application issue as a patent with claims substantially similar to the ones published, the owner (or assignee) can seek damages from an infringer back to the time the infringer has notice of the infringing activity.

If all of this sounds confusing, it is. Like many operations run by the government, the rules and statutes have taken over simple concepts and created a huge mess. Throw in some lawyers, and you create an expensive mess.
 
Would a two piece phenolic ferrule would be free from those claims?

Just cut the ferrule in half and glue it back on ... now it is a two piece ferrule. I doubt you could even see the line.

Or would the back piece be considered a ring and the front piece the ferrule and tip combo .... this is making my head hurt.

What about inlay designs?
Are they covered by some law?
Think I will start a new thread about them.
 
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just use a threaded tennon, whitch in theory can be screwed back off, then its not a permenent fixture..



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