What’s more important?

Joe T

Joe T

Well-known member
What’s more important? Having a good Rack or having a good Break?

This past weekend was our first Joss Tour event and I’m faced with the same old problem and what I think is a disadvantage.

First the problem, not everyone can rack the balls and I understand that but should I suffer from this? It seems I have two choices. #1 break what I think is a bad rack ( balls not touching the 9 ball) and they’re happy, my opponent and the crowd or
#2, ask them to rack the balls until I’m satisfied, which I haven’t been doing all the time.

The disadvantage is that I can and do rack very, very well and I know what a bad rack is and I won’t leave them one. This really is a problem for me on regional tours because the cloth may be a little worn and some tables are definitely tough to rack on but it’s like I’m giving up weight in an open tournament or I come off like I’m a jerk.

Rack your own doesn’t work for me because I don’t want some one accusing me of racking dead corner balls or dead 9 balls. I definitely don’t want them accidently racking 9’s for themselves, which would happen. I can count on one hand how many 9’s I give up in the course of a season (in the lower 2 pockets that is)

Here’s how strongly I feel about this. I’m willing to have a Break contest with ANYONE in the WORLD if they let me rack for both of us (and I don’t break that strong). They get the two front balls off the 9 and I get them frozen to the 9. And if we don’t count the 1 ball in the side, I may lay 2-1 in a race to 15 balls.

Now I don’t really expect someone here to come up with the solution but I would be pleasantly surprised if someone did. I know 10 Ball would stop many of these racking problems (no dead corner balls) but we’re all still stuck on 9 ball.

Here’s one thing I’m going to do in the meantime. Educate the players and spectators for free. I’m going to bring diagrams with me to post at events showing what a bad rack looks like and explaining why it’s bad and encourage people to test it out for themselves. Then maybe I won’t have an opponent telling the crowd “this guy is so picky" and a guy in the crowd, who knows nothing about the rack, yelling “just break the balls”!!

By the way, I lost in the finals at 8-8 and didn’t shoot because I didn’t make a ball on the break. So now you know where some of this venting is coming from.

Remember open challenge to the world if they agree to those racks!
I’m not rich so please don’t ask to bet 10k but I will empty out everytime!

Joe T Encouraging the first regional or professional rack your own 10 Ball Tour
 
Sorry to hear about the hill-hill loss Joe. And no, not in a million years would I consider your offer, but then again I do know better. Looking forward to seeing you guys in Quincy in a couple of weeks.

Dave
 
DDKoop said:
Sorry to hear about the hill-hill loss Joe. And no, not in a million years would I consider your offer, but then again I do know better. Looking forward to seeing you guys in Quincy in a couple of weeks.

Dave
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If you got that far and jus half the racks were bad .What would happen if all you got were good racks :D .A nice tight rack makes for a better break.. ;)
 
Joe T said:
Rack your own doesn’t work for me because I don’t want some one accusing me of racking dead corner balls or dead 9 balls.

By the way, I lost in the finals at 8-8 and didn’t shoot because I didn’t make a ball on the break. So now you know where some of this venting is coming from.
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Hey, Joe, I feel the same way. I wish all the tournaments would be 10-ball. That would eliminate a lot of the side balls flying in on the break, and you're right. There are some professional rackers out there. :rolleyes:

I've played in a lot of tournaments and went zero to 10 on the break as far as pocketing a ball and still got the matches close. I can't count the times that that has happened, but it has.

I wish whoever made a ball on the break would have to be snookered on the 1-ball and they would have to roll out. Then the game starts from there.

As far as winner racks, I don't like that either. It seems like that side ball flies in every game. Just as an example, I was playing Danny Basavich a couple of months ago in a winner's-rack regional tournament, and he made the same side ball in the same corner pocket 15 times in a row. That's convincing enough for me.

At the bigger events, I think they should have a neutral racker, referees at every table. That way, if that side ball keeps flying in, they can blame it on the neutral racker, but I don't think it will happen if the balls are racked fairly.

Congratulations on coming in second to Hatch, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Quincy. Hope you have the diagrams finished by then. I'm still hoping to get a few breaking and racking tips from you in exchange for a one-pocket strategy lesson. :D

I just bought a brand-new break cue from Shannon and South East Cues at the Open. Maybe you can show me how to use it, Joe. Everybody else is using these things and they make balls on the break. Is there something to these break cues? If they're anything like the jump cues, it should work. (ha-ha)

Keith
 
Hi Joe T.

I went home Saturday night. Sorry I didn't get a chance to say good luck and good bye. Dennis will be a force to be reckoned with again. Now that Greg passed away, I think Dennis has found a new reason to go for number one. He sure has the talent! I lost my second hill-hill, when the guy made a seven foot shot on the four-nine combo at the top spot. Cue ball was on the bottom rail, off line with the combo! Oh Well, he made it. Quite a shot! He misses, I probably join you Sunday.

I've been using the racking method Buddy Hall showed me years ago. Roll the rack up to the spot. Raise the rack and watch where the one goes. If it rolls forward, Bring the rack forward till the one rocks back and freezes. I then spin the back ball till the others freeze to the nine. In my short memory, only Frankie Hernandez and Rob Saez complained about my racks. "Delish" looked once at the start of a match. Never looked again. Great match. Neither of us made a nine on the break! Some of the guys are pushing at the one with their finger. I'm not sure why. Got any ideas? Some guys are asking me not to spin the back ball. How about that?

I'll be in Chicago for the Midwest Open. Perhaps I'll see you in Glens Falls or Danbury. Best of luck regardless.

Mike Massey Aiming Ball??????
 
cardiac kid said:
I've been using the racking method Buddy Hall showed me years ago. Roll the rack up to the spot. Raise the rack and watch where the one goes. If it rolls forward, Bring the rack forward till the one rocks back and freezes. I then spin the back ball till the others freeze to the nine.
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That's exactly how I rack the balls... I was playing someone back this spring and they weren't making any balls on the break. They said they had never seen anyone spin the balls like that and thought that I was giving them a bad rack. Whether it's a tournament, gambling, or simply for fun, I ALWAYS give a good rack. I just hate playing from a bad break. I especially hate a bad 8 ball break on a bar table which unfortunately is all anyone around here plays. :-(
 
I think it is more important to have a good rack than a good break. With a good rack even a weak break can be productive.

I have noticed that it is extremely difficult sometimes to get the three head balls to freeze. I usually will fiddle with the position or the rack and switch balls until I make the best rack I can. Most of the time though I leave the table unhappy about the rack I gave. (Doesn't seem to stop my opponents from breaking and running out on me though).

Maybe some articles in here and distributed to the billiard mags would help.

In Germany it used to be the practice that when a player lost a match he had to referee a match in the next round. The ref wasn't required to rack but I sometimes offered as a courtesy to the players. Now they don't do that anymore in Germany. Although no one really liked it, (who does like being told they have to ref after they just lost?), I found it to be a good concept and kept the matches fair.

Now, let me tell you about the SUPER DUPER Bunjee rack that you can buy........ Just Kidding Doom - don't kill me. :-)

Ah life, the Sardo gives us the "perfect" rack and it's "too" easy. And everyone else just gives us the "house" rack.

Sorry about the loss Joe. It's a bummer.

John
 
I think you've got it right, Joe. Noone has a good break when the balls are racked poorly. Still, it's relatively amusing that people complained that the rack was too easy with Sardo.

I've been in the middle of this strange issue myself, and, believe it or not, it was as referee! About four years ago, George "Ginky" SanSouci, then playing the best pool of his life, matched up with Karen Corr in a "five-on-the-wire" race to eleven exhibition. A wealthy local benefactor of pool put up a nice purse for the event. As each of these players counts me as a friend, they asked me to referee the match. I wasn't overly keen on it, but the request seemed harmless enough so I said OK. In the early part of the match, Corr kept complaining about my racks, and Ginky was getting a little bit upset about it -- guess he must have liked them. Then, when Corr finally made three balls on the break and got dead position on the one, I figured all was better, until Ginky looked me in the eye and said "now I've got no chance!"

I knew after that match I never wanted to be a pool referee in a nine ball match ever again.

P.S. In case anyone cares, Ginky won 11 - 10.
 
Keith McCready said:
Hey, Joe, I feel the same way. I wish all the tournaments would be 10-ball. That would eliminate a lot of the side balls flying in on the break, and you're right. There are some professional rackers out there. :rolleyes:

That's the problem Keither, CORNER BALLS! And I'm not even worried about the professional rackers cuz there's only a few and I don't mind asking them for reracks, I'm worried more about the good player/amateur racker that I really don't want to ask for a rerack because I know they're trying their best.

I've played in a lot of tournaments and went zero to 10 on the break as far as pocketing a ball and still got the matches close. I can't count the times that that has happened, but it has.
You'ld kill'em with a break and shape. I would hate to be on the end of that torture. Or should I say Nightmare!

I wish whoever made a ball on the break would have to be snookered on the 1-ball and they would have to roll out. Then the game starts from there.

I don't want to change the rules, just add a ball and go from a flawed rack with dead balls to an unflawed rack. Just because they invented 9 ball and that rack years ago doesn't mean we have to stick with it even after we've found it to be flawed.

As far as winner racks, I don't like that either. It seems like that side ball flies in every game. Just as an example, I was playing Danny Basavich a couple of months ago in a winner's-rack regional tournament, and he made the same side ball in the same corner pocket 15 times in a row. That's convincing enough for me.

He's one of the few top players that saw the value in the information I was releasing years ago and has become a true rack reading genius. He and I don't cut each other any slack with the rack.

At the bigger events, I think they should have a neutral racker, referees at every table.
Many refs rack worse than most players.

That way, if that side ball keeps flying in, they can blame it on the neutral racker, but I don't think it will happen if the balls are racked fairly.

Sardo racks fairly and was the final proof that the diamond shaped 9 ball rack is a bad idea.

Congratulations on coming in second to Hatch,
Thanks, I know he's a better player but it's only races to 9 for 1 or 2 sets right and most of the pressure was on him.

and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Quincy. Hope you have the diagrams finished by then.
I'll have'em!

I'm still hoping to get a few breaking and racking tips from you in exchange for a one-pocket strategy lesson. :D
I can't say deal fast enough!

I just bought a brand-new break cue from Shannon and South East Cues at the Open. Maybe you can show me how to use it, Joe. Everybody else is using these things and they make balls on the break. Is there something to these break cues? If they're anything like the jump cues, it should work. (ha-ha)

Well I'm no expert on physics but I'll compare it to dropping a cue ball on dirt (leather tip) watching it bounce and then dropping a cue ball on cement ( phenalic tips). That's just a guess though.
I'll take reading the racks over any break stick, so we'll start next time.

I don't know what you're up to this weekend 25th&26th but here in RI we have a $5,000 added event and if you want to hop on a bus to Providence I'll pick you up and make sure your weekend goes smooth!

Joe T
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Gremlin said:
Hi Joe T,

I was thinking maybe you shouldn't have written the book? :) But please don't stop I need a copy of your book. 10-Ball is a great game and I hope someone starts a 10-Ball Tour.

The refs would be nice but very expensive. :( Just wondering what ever happend to your old student Nicole Mancini I have missed her on the tours?
She was always very gracious and kind to me

She just up and quit Grem. It really broke my heart because she wasn't evenclose to her potential or close to giving it 100%. I begged her to just give it one year of serious training to break into the top 10 and try to get a serios sponsor but couldn't talk her into it. Youth?

I think they go hand in hand but I never worry about the racks I just blast them if I am playing 9-Bll. I hate 9-Ball but is the only game people know so I play. I love 14.1, 8-Ball, and one-pocket. Good Luck out there hear.

Cheers,

"Gremlin"
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I cannot believe that you would divulge information like the two balls in front of the nine needing to be touching the nine. Sure it's common information to some, but to the unexpecting, it's a huge move. I mean, you could give someone what looks like a perfect rack, but not have those two balls touching the nine and your opponent has no chance.

Actually Joe, if I am playing someone and they accidently give me a rack where those balls aren't touching the 9, I will usually keep my mouth shut and break'em anyway so that I don't divulge that secret. However, if they consistently give me that rack, then I demand a rerack. Anybody(unless it's the equipment) that can consistently give that rack, knows exactly what it is and even scarier, knows how to give it.

Obviously, you must be refering to 'Sardoless' 10-ball. May I remind everyone that Dee Adkins and Corey Duel came up with a 10 ball break that sent the 10 flying in the hole at the Trump 10-Ball Challenge a few years back.
 
accdealer said:
I cannot believe that you would divulge information like the two balls in front of the nine needing to be touching the nine. Sure it's common information to some, but to the unexpecting, it's a huge move. I mean, you could give someone what looks like a perfect rack, but not have those two balls touching the nine and your opponent has no chance.

Actually Joe, if I am playing someone and they accidently give me a rack where those balls aren't touching the 9, I will usually keep my mouth shut and break'em anyway so that I don't divulge that secret. However, if they consistently give me that rack, then I demand a rerack. Anybody(unless it's the equipment) that can consistently give that rack, knows exactly what it is and even scarier, knows how to give it.

Obviously, you must be refering to 'Sardoless' 10-ball. May I remind everyone that Dee Adkins and Corey Duel came up with a 10 ball break that sent the 10 flying in the hole at the Trump 10-Ball Challenge a few years back.
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To divulge is to educate and to show someone how to protect themselves against a bad rack I must show them how to cheat and hope they don't choose that path. My goal, which is rather lofty is to create more of a switch to 10 ball by showing the problems of a 9 ball rack.

If Cory and Dee can make the 10 go towards the hole everytime when the two balls behind the 10 are touching it they have truely acquired a skill I would like to see and possibly found a flaw in the 10 ball rack.I would like to know more. Was this on multiple tables or one specific table? Could it have been the way the table was racking?

I really don't mind the Sardo, everyone complains about the craters in the cloth but every table gets divits in the racking area anyway.

I did the same as you for years about not mentioning the balls off the 9. I sometimes went as far as pulling the 1 ball off the rack and telling them it rolled off and politely asked for a rerack.
 
Joe T said:
To divulge is to educate and to show someone how to protect themselves against a bad rack I must show them how to cheat and hope they don't choose that path.
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Right on, Joe. We're all in the bad-rack prevention business together and information is our only defense. We need to learn the methods of the rack-fixers for the same reason cops need to study the methods of criminals, because it helps us to identify and derail the perpetrators.
 
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whitewolf said:
Spinning the balls causes them to separate ever so slightly. A pro showed me this and me promise not to name him. Try spinning the back 2 balls before the rear ball and you will see the gaps form.
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Hi whitewolf,

Thanks for the heads up. I looked and looked and couldn't see the gaps form as I racked. I always thought spinning would tighten the rack, not loosen it!!!! The advice I've seen suggests that if the nine is frozen between the front and rear two balls, it couldn't go in the top corners. Like Joe, watching them go in the side or bottom corners is very rare. Regardless, thanks for the heads up. I'm off to Classic Billiards to practice racking. I'll work on your suggestion. I'll post up if I find anything. Thanks again.
 
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