what about a new tour for non IPT members

[cueball1950]

well since the IPTis going to have so many tournaments maybe someone should start a large tour just for the players that have/did not qualify for the IPT. Would it work? would it get any fan support? would it get any player support? or maybe even a sponsorship package? would the industry support such a tour? there are just a few questions i was wondering about my self. So please give me your opinion.....................mike

 

[jjinfla]

Fan support? Surely you jest.

But yes I believe the old tours will still exist and be more attractive to the players since the really big guns won't be there.

Players play in tournaments to WIN MONEY. They do not want to play a pro and lose. Occassionaly maybe, but not as a regular diet.

Players also care less about who is watching them. In fact, they most likely would prefer it if no one was watching them. Less distraction for them.

For example, I am sure that 100% of players would like to be playing me for the hot seat rather than one of the top pros. Because come the next day no one remembers who played whom, all they care about is how much money did you win. And you can't bank any money from the prestige of losing to a pro.

Jake

 

[unknownpro]

well since the IPTis going to have so many tournaments maybe someone should start a large tour just for the players that have/did not qualify for the IPT. Would it work? would it get any fan support? would it get any player support? or maybe even a sponsorship package? would the industry support such a tour? there are just a few questions i was wondering about my self. So please give me your opinion.....................mike

Blackjack has offered his help in starting a player's organization. I think we need one that includes all the different pocket billiard games in some way and is open to everyone.

unknownpro

 

[Snapshot9]

Quite Frankly

I think that this might be in the long range plans of the IPt. It would follow in their plans to develop a lasting infrastructure for Billiards. It would have to be on the semi-Pro level, as people would not be interested in bangers.

Funding would hard to come by unless some sponsors would step in to support it, but that is really getting ahead of the game, as the IPT tour first needs to get some sponsors.

I think we are being premature in talking about it, but I do see it as a possibility in the future.

 

[PoolSleuth]

Think MONEY, MONEY, and more MONEY.

well since the IPTis going to have so many tournaments maybe someone should start a large tour just for the players that have/did not qualify for the IPT. Would it work? would it get any fan support? would it get any player support? or maybe even a sponsorship package? would the industry support such a tour? there are just a few questions i was wondering about my self. So please give me your opinion.....................mike

What you need is Advertising Money, Prize Money, Sponsors with Lots of Money who are sold on PAYING to Sponsor POOL, and if your are lucky the Players will come.

 

[Blackjack]

Blackjack has offered his help in starting a player's organization. I think we need one that includes all the different pocket billiard games in some way and is open to everyone.

unknownpro

I'll address what Jake posted first.

Jake, I guarantee you that 90% of the IPT players will have absolutely nothing to show for their earnings 5, 10,15 years from now. It's one thing to have money, but knowing what to do with it is something completely different. Most will gamble and squander it away, instead of reinvesting it back into the game of pool. The checks they are cashing today will lay the foundation for the hard luck stories of tomorrow.

Unknownpro,

There needs to be a tour set up where all the major pocket biliard disciplines are represented
14.1
9 Ball
One pocket
Banks

There are many people that care about those games and would like to see them restored to the forefront. People such as Randy Goldwater (14.1), Steve Booth (One Pocket), and people such as myself that understand that the legends of yesterday would like for us to preserve all aspects of our game - so that someday we can pass it along to the next generation. With that comes a great responsibility.

I believe that it should be about POOL - not just the money. If you love money more than pool I wouldn't want you on my team anyway, no matter who you are.

You need to understand that there is a reason that the industry (as a whole) has walked away and pulled their support from men's professional pool. Until those issues are dealt with and relationships are mended, it will be a struggle for anybody to start any kind of tour any time soon. Ask any regional tour promoter how difficult it is to get added money. The money is there, but the industry has short arms and deep pockets. The industry understands that a majority of the players are not in the habit of giving back to the sport, or conducting themselves in a respectable, businesslike, responsible manner. Until that changes, the billiards industry will continue to watch the professional game from the nosebleed seats - to include the IPT.

I believe that the big money and guaranteed salaries will only result in complacency on that tour - and that the hungry sharpshooters that play independently or on the smaller tours will gain a distinct advantage in terms of intensity, drive, and hunger to win.

As far as "fan support" - fans will support anything that is genuine. I believe that hard work and dedication is blessed immensely in life and in sport. If you do it right, plant the right seeds, your tree will bear fruit. Right now the IPT players are reaping the benefits of a harvest that they did not plant, nourish, or care for. There is still no explanation of how the players will generate fruitful crops for years to come. However, I believe that pool will be successful (eventually) due to a grass roots effort by people that love the sport with all of their heart and care deeply about its future. That is what is needed to establish a firm, longlasting foundation instead of a house of cards or a sandcastle - I've seen enough of those in my lifetime.

As far as starting something - I'm all in. The question then becomes - is there anybody else out there willing to help me that is NOT intimidated by the money of the IPT? Let's hope so. Love will win out over money every single time.

 

[JAM]

I'll address what Jake posted first.

Jake, I guarantee you that 90% of the IPT players will have absolutely nothing to show for their earnings 5, 10,15 years from now. It's one thing to have money, but knowing what to do with it is something completely different. Most will gamble and squander it away, instead of reinvesting it back into the game of pool. The checks they are cashing today will lay the foundation for the hard luck stories of tomorrow.

I value your opinion, Blackjack, but it is one which seems a little stereotypical to me. It's very sad that some within the American pool culture are so prejudiced by their past experiences.

It just may be that some of these IPT competitors have never had the opportunity to play REAL POOL with REAL RULES for REAL MONEY, due to a variety of reasons, many of which are topics for another thread.

Right now the IPT players are reaping the benefits of a harvest that they did not plant, nourish, or care for. There is still no explanation of how the players will generate fruitful crops for years to come. However, I believe that pool will be successful (eventually) due to a grass roots effort by people that love the sport with all of their heart and care deeply about its future.

I'm not sure about that, but I respect your thoughts.

Judging the history of American pool, even those who do love the sport with all their heart and care deeply about its future have failed. Why not be open-minded and allow the IPT to develop? Then it will be interesting to hear opinions from both sides of the fence. At this juncture, though, with only one tournament having transpired, it is very premature to think that the IPT cannot be successful becuase it is not a "grass-roots effort."

...As far as starting something - I'm all in. The question the now becomes - is there anybody else out there willing to help me that is NOT intimidated by the money of the IPT? Let's hope so. Love will win out over money every single time.

Unfortunately, one cannot live off of love. That's why so many American champion-quality players have left competitive pool. It is not that they are dispassionate about it.

The lot of American pool players may increase if the IPT is successful because there will be something worthwhile to shoot for, namely making ends meet. What pool has needed for a very long time is new blood, and now it's here. This is only the beginning. The players who have seen the IPT up front and close are very happy, not just American players, but many players from around the world. The best is yet to come, I say. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[cheesemouse]

Jam,
I fall on your side of the fence. Give the new kid on the block a chance to grow some. For years now the 'what the hell is wrong with pool debate?' has always ended in 'pool needs a sugar daddy'.....well, it is here, the IPT.
All the alphabet soup pool organizations have had decades to move the game onward and upward but they left their vehicles in neutral racing their engines going nowhere. They have been blown off the track, religated to the nosebleed seats, and can only watch racing their engines until out of gas...no one knows the future of the IPT but atleast it has one chance. If all the roadblockers just step aside for a time and let its wings spread. There may even be room for soup guys to get back in the game once someone points the way....I can only be thankful that someone is willing to risk his bankroll and is rolling the dice at the game I love. I simply have my fingers crossed that everybody makes out in the long run and I get to enjoy a better product as my eyes go bad...LOL GO IPT!!!

 

[MikeJanis]

I have been speculating about this idea for quite some time. A tour that does not allow IPT, UPA, WPA, WPBA or any other professional players allowed to compete in the events.

Just out of curiosity, do the people of this board feel it woyuld be a good idea for the Viking Tour to move in the direction of not allowing professional (IPT, UPA, WPBA, WPA) players to compete and at which point should the line be drawn as to who may not play?

Mj

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Don't get ahead too far aheah. The IPT is not yet established. 90% of what people believe to be IPT guarantees (like tournaments, money, and future plans) can change at any moment for any reason. Virtually anything in the IPT could be cancelled, changed, or altered significantly. The IPT could shut down at any time with zero warning. That would not shock me in the slightest bit. KT's word isn't valueble. He will always talk up the IPT no matter what shape its in. That's his job. My feeling is, for KT to keep going with the IPT, it would have to meet many of his expectations. I think the IPT could survive, but on a smaller scale...but that's not in his interests. So, it is either total success or bust. That's what I think.

Even if the IPT makes it through a season or two...until it can show and prove to be profitable, or self-sustainable...then will be the time to consider other options. KT isn't going to keep the IPT around for years as a form a charity. There's dozens of scenarios for the IPT. It could go like they planned. It could continue, but have less prize money, but still be bigger than the other tours. It might be sold, and the new owners radically change it.

If the IPT is here to stay, and is relatively big...then it would be interesting to see other non-IPT tours form. They would be kinda like minor leagues in a way. There's no where else for pro's to go if they can't get into the IPT. There's a lot of good players out there, too many to all be on the IPT. There's no middle ground between the amateur world and the main professional tour. Other tours that play all the semi-pro, A+, or touring pro's who didn't make the IPT would fill that role well. With the big guns in the IPT, and excluded from the non-IPT tour, it would draw a lot of players in. There's no need for a middle of the road tour now, or prior to the IPT because most events are opens and anyone can enter.


Will it be profitable? I dunno. Is any tour profitable? If so, what makes it? The big name players? The sponsors? The promoters?


I've gone and watched many Florida Tour events. Many times, the biggest names would be Hall, Williams and a couple others. None of the filipinos or bigger name Euros. I think true pool fans like to see these events because they get a chance to watch an elevated level of play, more so than a particular player or name.

 

[Blackjack]

I have been speculating about this idea for quite some time. A tour that does not allow IPT, UPA, WPA, WPBA or any other professional players allowed to compete in the events.

Just out of curiosity, do the people of this board feel it woyuld be a good idea for the Viking Tour to move in the direction of not allowing professional (IPT, UPA, WPBA, WPA) players to compete and at which point should the line be drawn as to who may not play?

Mj

Wow. That would slam the door shut for a lot of players. Personally I wouldn't like it because it would leave some of us out in the cold. From a business standpoint I would love it because someone else would benefit by having those players playing in their events.

As a player I welcome the toughest competition, and I know I am not alone with that attitude. The only guys that cry and whine about the pros playing in those events never had a snowball's chance in hell to win anyway.

Take the Ladies Spirit Tour. Its not uncommon for Pan Xiaoting, Vivian Villareal, or Ga Young Kim to show up and play in those events. Most of the ladies are playing for qualifiers. The WPBA pros can win the money, but not the qualifier because they don't need it. The tour becomes stronger, more competitive, and the events carry more prestige if you win them. The ladies on that tour are exposed to stiff competition BEFORE they make it to the WPBA. That is why Debbie Schjodt beating GYK earlier this year was not a surprise to those of us that had been watching her kick butt on the LST.

The men have had opportunity after opportunity to set up shop just like the WPBA qualifier system, yet egos, stubborn people, and a lack of cooperation have usually shot that plane down before it got in the air. In the end, its you tour and you can do as you like. I wish you luck either way.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I have been speculating about this idea for quite some time. A tour that does not allow IPT, UPA, WPA, WPBA or any other professional players allowed to compete in the events.

Just out of curiosity, do the people of this board feel it woyuld be a good idea for the Viking Tour to move in the direction of not allowing professional (IPT, UPA, WPBA, WPA) players to compete and at which point should the line be drawn as to who may not play?

Mj

No, I don't think that would be a good idea yet. Currently I believe pool tours need the best players, and the biggest stars possible to draw public interest. One thing that pool has going for it is the shock and awe factor among the unitiated, you don't want to remove that.

I am certainly not interested in attending an amateur event. I get to see that every time I play.

It may work when a broader fan base for the sport has been created.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'll address what Jake posted first.

Jake, I guarantee you that 90% of the IPT players will have absolutely nothing to show for their earnings 5, 10,15 years from now. It's one thing to have money, but knowing what to do with it is something completely different. Most will gamble and squander it away, instead of reinvesting it back into the game of pool. The checks they are cashing today will lay the foundation for the hard luck stories of tomorrow.

Unknownpro,

There needs to be a tour set up where all the major pocket biliard disciplines are represented
14.1
9 Ball
One pocket
Banks

There are many people that care about those games and would like to see them restored to the forefront. People such as Randy Goldwater (14.1), Steve Booth (One Pocket), and people such as myself that understand that the legends of yesterday would like for us to preserve all aspects of our game - so that someday we can pass it along to the next generation. With that comes a great responsibility.

I believe that it should be about POOL - not just the money. If you love money more than pool I wouldn't want you on my team anyway, no matter who you are.

You need to understand that there is a reason that the industry (as a whole) has walked away and pulled their support from men's professional pool. Until those issues are dealt with and relationships are mended, it will be a struggle for anybody to start any kind of tour any time soon. Ask any regional tour promoter how difficult it is to get added money. The money is there, but the industry has short arms and deep pockets. The industry understands that a majority of the players are not in the habit of giving back to the sport, or conducting themselves in a respectable, businesslike, responsible manner. Until that changes, the billiards industry will continue to watch the professional game from the nosebleed seats - to include the IPT.

I believe that the big money and guaranteed salaries will only result in complacency on that tour - and that the hungry sharpshooters that play independently or on the smaller tours will gain a distinct advantage in terms of intensity, drive, and hunger to win.

As far as "fan support" - fans will support anything that is genuine. I believe that hard work and dedication is blessed immensely in life and in sport. If you do it right, plant the right seeds, your tree will bear fruit. Right now the IPT players are reaping the benefits of a harvest that they did not plant, nourish, or care for. There is still no explanation of how the players will generate fruitful crops for years to come. However, I believe that pool will be successful (eventually) due to a grass roots effort by people that love the sport with all of their heart and care deeply about its future. That is what is needed to establish a firm, longlasting foundation instead of a house of cards or a sandcastle - I've seen enough of those in my lifetime.

As far as starting something - I'm all in. The question then becomes - is there anybody else out there willing to help me that is NOT intimidated by the money of the IPT? Let's hope so. Love will win out over money every single time.

Blackjack,
Isn't it necessary that a professional sport can provide enough money for the players so that they can dedicate all their time to the sport?

On one hand it seems you're criticizing the IPT for not providing enough money, or long time financial security, and on the other hand you're criticising players for doing it soley for the money.

I don't really get what you're trying to say or do. But if you can get more events up and running and help to develop a group of partners and players that represent themselves well and can attract corporate support, then more luck to you.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have been speculating about this idea for quite some time. A tour that does not allow IPT, UPA, WPA, WPBA or any other professional players allowed to compete in the events.

Just out of curiosity, do the people of this board feel it woyuld be a good idea for the Viking Tour to move in the direction of not allowing professional (IPT, UPA, WPBA, WPA) players to compete and at which point should the line be drawn as to who may not play?

Mj

Mike,
I think you should do whatever works best for balancing the books. If you need some big name appearances to secure crucial sponsorship, then you'd better do that. Or if not having the big names encourages more to enter, you can try that.

You needen't disassociate your events with the high profile tours to do so. The events could be used as stepping stones / qualifiers.

It's not easy to run a successful tour. To do so profitably is key for it being able to continue and expand. If shoe makers didn't make money, we'd be walking around bare footed.

Good luck to you, whichever models you try.

Colin

 

[TheOne]

I hope eventually they can use the UPA, Euro Tour, and Asian Tour, and maybe even a few wild cards for snooker and the ladies to form the basis of the end of year qualifiers. Colin had an excellent idea that a small % can go to the IPT from every players entry at each event on these tours and the top x number of players get to fight it out in vegas at the end of the year with the bottom 50.

Also no reason why the IPT can't have a single qualifier before each open event to raise some cash and cover for no shows similar to the way the WPC works. I wonder how many players you would have got at say the cue club if they had 5 days of qualifiers before the NA Open for $500 or $1000?

Of course this would need KT and the WPA to kiss and make up, so we might have to wait until KT sells up before they get in bed together.

Still this could easily happen and the IPT could be the start of a great future for all pool players, its not that far away.

EDIT:
Wouldn't it be great if the WPA could realise now that the IPT is doing great things for the players, and for KT to realise that the WPA did do good things in the past too with limited funds. If they could only work together so that the IPT could take advantge of the current WPA structure around the world we really would have a wondeful set up. The WPA doesn't have to demand cash from the IPT, they would benifit dramtically from increased grass roots participation and other sanctioned events, not to mention the the publicty they would receive. Its a real shame KT and IA got off to such a bad start.

 

[catscradle]

well since the IPTis going to have so many tournaments maybe someone should start a large tour just for the players that have/did not qualify for the IPT. Would it work? would it get any fan support? would it get any player support? or maybe even a sponsorship package? would the industry support such a tour? there are just a few questions i was wondering about my self. So please give me your opinion.....................mike

No more or less support than other pool tours, which is frankly not much. I don't think anybody would get rich off it.

 

[Blackjack]

Blackjack,
Isn't it necessary that a professional sport can provide enough money for the players so that they can dedicate all their time to the sport?

On one hand it seems you're criticizing the IPT for not providing enough money, or long time financial security, and on the other hand you're criticising players for doing it soley for the money.

You are wrong. I have never criticized the IPT for NOT providing enough money. I have criticized them for not establishing protection for the players - including you.

I don't really get what you're trying to say or do. But if you can get more events up and running and help to develop a group of partners and players that represent themselves well and can attract corporate support, then more luck to you.
Colin

Let me first say that I am not starting a tour, nor am I interested in starting a tour. What I find interesting is players such as yourself not looking at the long term picture. I'm also surprised at some of the fans. If exclusivity comes into the picture you can kiss goodbye straight pool and 9 ball and one pocket. All we will have is 8 ball. If that interests you fine. Just remember that exclusivity would kill Derby City, the US Open, and exclude the greatest players in the world from competing in the WPC. From the ashes of those tours will rise some pissed off individuals that are twice as smart as KT when it comes to running a pool tour. Perhaps this is exactly what these tours will need to finally put their differences aside and band together. Individualy, KT can kick them around, but collectively and cohesively joined as a unified group, he won't win that stare down. They may not have his money, but I'm pretty sure they'll have a business model that makes sense and they will have a way to generate more coming in then they have going out.

If the IPT fails, Kevin Trudeau will vaporize into thin air like he has done in the past. None of his past business ventures have been successful and he has earned his own reputation, yet many get annoyed when this is brought into the conversation.
CLICK THIS LINK

Tell me how many pages you have to go before you read anything about the IPT. I got bored after page 8. If all of that information does not alarm you and cause you to question his ethics and the future of the game of pool, then I apologize for considering and publicly acknowledging you as one of the most intelligent people on this forum.

"Man, I did love this game.
I'd have played for food money.
It was the game, the sounds, the smells.
Did you ever hold a ball
or a glove to your face?"

"Yeah."

"I used to love traveling on the trains
from town to town.
The hotels, brass spittoons in the lobbies...
...brass beds in the rooms.
It was the crowd...
...rising to their feet
when the ball was hit deep.
I'd play for nothing." -Shoeless Joe Jackson, Field of Dreams

 

[Koop]

I have criticized them for not establishing protection for the players - including you.

Hi David,

First let me say I have absolutely no side to take here so this is only a question. The above statement is one that I don't quite understand. Could you elaborate on what you mean by protecting the players?
I know in corporate America you have 401K's etc... but it is solely up to the individual to take advantage. Are you talking more about education or actually having some entity take a percentage and invest it for them?

Regards,
Koop

 

[Blackjack]

Hi David,

First let me say I have absolutely no side to take here so this is only a question. The above statement is one that I don't quite understand. Could you elaborate on what you mean by protecting the players?
I know in corporate America you have 401K's etc... but it is solely up to the individual to take advantage. Are you talking more about education or actually having some entity take a percentage and invest it for them?

Regards,
Koop

The player's have nothing to protect their interests in the tour. When the Camel PBT folded, Don Mackey was paid over $700K. Nobody has heard from him since then. The money was generated by deals he made with Camel. I expressed my concern back then and everybody told me I was just being negative. 3 years later Camel pulled out of the deal and the majority of players were left with nothing.

To my knowledge there is nothing in writing that is legally binding KT/Natural Cures to the promised salaries. If something happens between now and then (for example - KT getting shut down again as he has in the past) there is no contractual agreement between the IPT and the players. This leaves some in a bind, as I'm sure they are already planning on receiving this money. Without representation, the players have no say so in what happens. If they are signed into a deal regarding exclusivity with no representation - they could find themselves in a catch-22 position with no hope for escape from anything that they sign.

Arbitrarily, there is nothing set up to protect the players. In the recent IPT event, there was an incident with Earl. The only thing that I heard was that Deno Andrews was "reviewing the situation." I'm not stupid, and I have a memory like an elephant. I remember some of the things Deno had said about Earl on RSB several years back. Here is a direct quote - complete with a provided link to a statement that Deno made abot Earl in 1998 -

In earl's case, he does it time and time again. For
this...he should be eliminated from playing in high-profile
tournaments. He is a bad example for the young fans of the game. What
he does gives the impression that it's OK to act like an ass-wipe. It's
not, so he should learn to control himself, or contain his game in the
proper place. I think he belongs in a ratty old, drooling rail-bird
filled, old cloth, rails burned from cigarettes, halfway house pool
room. By the way, this is edited from where I really think he should
go.

link to the entire thread

I'm sorry, but when you have someone saying things like that about a player, I tend to remember it. I worry for players such as Earl, or anybody else that Deno may not like. Sure, Deno has a right to have an opinion, but when he is in the position of authority and his views are such as I have brought to light here, yes I believe we should be concerned about the players not having an independent outside entity to arbitrate on their behalf. I'm not saying that Deno is a bad guy or anything, but the fact that he has/had those views would eliminate him from making an objective decision in any situation that Earl is involved in.

 

[JAM]

...Arbitrarily, there is nothing set up to protect the players. In the recent IPT event, there was an incident with Earl. The only thing that I heard was that Deno Andrews was "reviewing the situation." I'm not stupid, and I have a memory like an elephant. I remember some of the things Deno had said about Earl on RSB several years back. Here is a direct quote - complete with a provided link to a statement that Deno made abot Earl in 1998 -

In earl's case, he does it time and time again. For
this...he should be eliminated from playing in high-profile
tournaments. He is a bad example for the young fans of the game. What
he does gives the impression that it's OK to act like an ass-wipe. It's
not, so he should learn to control himself, or contain his game in the
proper place. I think he belongs in a ratty old, drooling rail-bird
filled, old cloth, rails burned from cigarettes, halfway house pool
room. By the way, this is edited from where I really think he should
go.

link to the entire thread

I'm sorry, but when you have someone saying things like that about a player, I tend to remember it. I worry for players such as Earl, or anybody else that Deno may not like. Sure, Deno has a right to have an opinion, but when he is in the position of authority and his views are such as I have brought to light here, yes I believe we should be concerned about the players not having an independent outside entity to arbitrate on their behalf. I'm not saying that Deno is a bad guy or anything, but the fact that he has/had those views would eliminate him from making an objective decision in any situation that Earl is involved in.

I actually think you have gone off the deep end now, David.

Whatever Deno, you, or me, for that matter, wrote on RSB should not be brought over onto this forum.

Today, Deno is in a position as tournament director for the IPT, a position Deno accepted well after he wrote the post on RSB that you linked.

Furthermore, when Deno wrote the post on RSB, he was in no position of authority for any tour. If your point is that Deno Andrews is biased and cannot perform as a tournament director without prejudice, I think you are dead wrong.

I am standing up on Deno's behalf, without his knowledge, and I am outraged that you are slinging this kind of crap -- from RSB, no less -- on AzBilliards. SHAME ON YOU!

You may go ahead and continue to dislike the IPT with all your being, to include everything and everybody associated with it, but do not attack the good guys while you're standing on your soap box like this forum's town crier.

JAM