what about a new tour for non IPT members

[Blackjack]

I actually think you have gone off the deep end now, David.

Whatever Deno, you, or me, for that matter, wrote on RSB should not be brought over onto this forum.

Today, Deno is in a position as tournament director for the IPT, a position Deno accepted well after he wrote the post on RSB that you linked.

Furthermore, when Deno wrote the post on RSB, he was in no position of authority for any tour. If your point is that Deno Andrews is biased and cannot perform as a tournament director without prejudice, I think you are dead wrong.

I am standing up on Deno's behalf, without his knowledge, and I am outraged that you are slinging this kind of crap -- from RSB, no less -- on AzBilliards. SHAME ON YOU!

You may go ahead and continue to dislike the IPT with all your being, to include everything and everybody associated with it, but do not attack the good guys while you're standing on your soap box like this forum's town crier.

JAM

Soapbox? Koop asked me a direct question and I gave him an honest answer. Shame on me.

I'm not attacking anybody or slinging crap, I expressed a concern in much the same way you expressed concern about the UPA. Though I did not agree with all of your views regarding the UPA, I respected your opinions despite our differences in opinions. Instead of addressing the issues that myself, Vader, and others have brought up, you merely label us as naysayers because we're not on your bandwagon. FWIW, the same view was held of you a little more than a year ago. Instead of attacking me and labeling me, why is it that you cannot address the points I have brought up without turning it into a "JAM Vs Blackjack" thread? I have no interest in that or arguing with you or anybody. That energy is much better spent in other areas such as dealing with the issues instead of turning a blind eye to them. Nobody will address these issues because they have no answers to the questions or concerns that I have brought up. Then again, I'm not a part of the IPT and my opinion shouldn't matter anyway. KT says he doesn't care what is said in the forums - and in August 06 they are opening their own forum on their website, and I will respectfully refrain from going there. With all of that said, I still wish you and Keith nothing but the best of luck with the IPT and everything that you will gain from being a part of it.

 

[JAM]

Soapbox? Koop asked me a direct question and I gave him an honest answer. Shame on me.

You chose to reply to Koop by posting something that the current IPT tournament director had wrote before he assumed the position as IPT tournament director. It is shameful and a deliberate assault on Deno Andrews in his role as tournament director.

I'm not attacking anybody or slinging crap, I expressed a concern in much the same way you expressed concern about the UPA. Though I did not agree with all of your views regarding the UPA, I respected your opinions despite our differences in opinions.

The comparison of the UPA and the IPT? You've gotta be kidding me!

Instead of addressing the issues that myself, Vader, and others have brought up, you merely label us as naysayers because we're not on your bandwagon.

You, Vader, and anyone else can have opinions, yea or nay, pertaining to the IPT. Of course, people have differences of opinion on a variety of topics. But to go after the IPT by way of Deno Andrews is out of line, and I'm calling you on it, like it or not.

FWIW, the same view was held of you a little more than a year ago. Instead of attacking me and labeling me, why is it that you cannot address the points I have brought up without turning it into a "JAM Vs Blackjack" thread?

FWIW, David, I think you are so self-removed from the IPT that your disdain for the organization and Kevin Trudeau is expressed in poor taste. I ain't turning nothing into a JAM-versus-Blackjack thread. I am calling you out for what I think is an unfair representation of a decent man.

I have no interest in that or arguing with you or anybody. That energy is much better spent in other areas such as dealing with the issues instead of turning a blind eye to them. Nobody will address these issues because they have no answers to the questions or concerns that I have brought up. Then again, I'm not a part of the IPT and my opinion shouldn't matter anyway. KT says he doesn't care what is said in the forums - and in August 06 they are opening their own forum on their website, and I will respectfully refrain from going there. With all of that said, I still wish you and Keith nothing but the best of luck with the IPT and everything that you will gain from being a part of it.

You're picking scabs.

Thanks for the good wishes for Keith. The IPT will move forward, with or without your blessing.

JAM

 

[Tom In Cincy]

I'm sorry, but when you have someone saying things like that about a player, I tend to remember it. I worry for players such as Earl, or anybody else that Deno may not like. Sure, Deno has a right to have an opinion, but when he is in the position of authority and his views are such as I have brought to light here, yes I believe we should be concerned about the players not having an independent outside entity to arbitrate on their behalf. I'm not saying that Deno is a bad guy or anything, but the fact that he has/had those views would eliminate him from making an objective decision in any situation that Earl is involved in.

David,
You've gone back 8 years to show evidence that Deno should be 'eliminated' from making an objective decision about Earl. Would you feel better if the 'players' made the decision? How many of the players were around 8 years ago and felt the same as Deno?

Do you honestly think that Deno couldn't change? or at least, because of his position, ensure that a 'review' of Earl is very objective?

I know if I were in Deno's position, I would be hard pressed to NOT take into account Earl's history and try to keep personal opinions in check to make a fair assesment.

 

[Koop]

I am honestly not trying stir up any flame wars here, merely curious, so please accept these questions as just that, questions.

First thank you for the response.
Are you talking about a contract that guarantees their winnings will be received or some of kind pension plan so that the players will not lose their winnings and having nothing to show for it years from now? I consider myself to be fairly intelligent but I could not glean the answer from your post. Sorry if I am making you repeat yourself.

Kind regards,
Koop

 

[Blackjack]

I am honestly not trying stir up any flame wars here, merely curious, so please accept these questions as just that, questions.

First thank you for the response.
Are you talking about a contract that guarantees their winnings will be received or some of kind pension plan so that the players will not lose their winnings and having nothing to show for it years from now? I consider myself to be fairly intelligent but I could not glean the answer from your post. Sorry if I am making you repeat yourself.

Kind regards,
Koop

Exactly - a percentage could be put aside that is invested just like a 401K or deffered comp - or even a pension fund that could be regulated separately from the tour for the players. This way, the players are protected in much the same way other professional athletes are protected. Its like an insurance policy that protects the players from being left out in the cold again if this doesn't work out. This would exist separately from the IPT and it would be voluntary for players to participate. It would also be used as an avenue to assist players with matters concerning financial management. The NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL do this with ALL of their rookies. They understand that a 21-22 year old kid probably needs help managing 6-7 figures in annual income. It is the same thing with pool players that have never had the opportunity to manage that amount of money. It's a big step going from scraping pennies to handling all of that money. Anyone that does not educate themselves on these matters will pay dearly in the long run.

Over a period of time the "player's association" would represent the player in arbitrary issues, such as non-payment, tax issues, and other legal representation. The way it is set up now, I hope the players read the fine print prior to signing anything, and hopefully some will be smart enough to have an attorney review everything bfore they make a decision.

 

[catscradle]

David,
You've gone back 8 years to show evidence that Deno should be 'eliminated' from making an objective decision about Earl. Would you feel better if the 'players' made the decision? How many of the players were around 8 years ago and felt the same as Deno?

Do you honestly think that Deno couldn't change? or at least, because of his position, ensure that a 'review' of Earl is very objective?

I know if I were in Deno's position, I would be hard pressed to NOT take into account Earl's history and try to keep personal opinions in check to make a fair assesment.

FWIW, and I'm not answering for Blackjack, I suspect Deno's opinion of Earl probably is unchanged from 8 years ago and consistent with views Deno has expressed on other topics (i.e., 3-cushion demeanor vs. pool demeanor). However, I also think Deno will conduct a relatively unbiased review of Earl's behavior. I believe Deno's pride will necessitate his conducting an unbiased review. It should be remembered though, that though unbiased by Deno's personal opinion of Earl, the review will reflect Deno's personal opinion of what is proper decorum and this may not bode well for Earl.
JMHO.

 

[Dave in Boston]

I have been speculating about this idea for quite some time. A tour that does not allow IPT, UPA, WPA, WPBA or any other professional players allowed to compete in the events.

Just out of curiosity, do the people of this board feel it woyuld be a good idea for the Viking Tour to move in the direction of not allowing professional (IPT, UPA, WPBA, WPA) players to compete and at which point should the line be drawn as to who may not play?

Mj

Mike

Dragon promotions I believe had a tourny with a great rule. NO player that has ever cashed in any open event could enter (or something to that effect). This left it as a total amature tourny. Now if someone started a new tour or the viking tour went that way I believe you would get a lot of new blood into the game or into the tourneys. Nothing againts the great players out there in everyones area but eveyone knows who cash time and time agian in the tours and dont believe that the regular guy with a job can compete. So having some type of true amature tour would be great and if you finish in the top say 5 for the year your graduate out

 

[catscradle]

Exactly - a percentage could be put aside that is invested just like a 401K or deffered comp - or even a pension fund that could be regulated separately from the tour for the players. This way, the players are protected in much the same way other professional athletes are protected. Its like an insurance policy that protects the players from being left out in the cold again if this doesn't work out. This would exist separately from the IPT and it would be voluntary for players to participate. It would also be used as an avenue to assist players with matters concerning financial management. The NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL do this with ALL of their rookies. They understand that a 21-22 year old kid probably needs help managing 6-7 figures in annual income. It is the same thing with pool players that have never had the opportunity to manage that amount of money. It's a big step going from scraping pennies to handling all of that money. Anyone that does not educate themselves on these matters will pay dearly in the long run.

Over a period of time the "player's association" would represent the player in arbitrary issues, such as non-payment, tax issues, and other legal representation. The way it is set up now, I hope the players read the fine print prior to signing anything, and hopefully some will be smart enough to have an attorney review everything bfore they make a decision.

With all due respect to the points you raise. The IPT has to be financially successful BEFORE player's security is on the plate. In other sports, this issues were not address until the league was over the hump. At that time, when the IPT has some vested interest in the players, you can be sure some enterprising player will organize the others. Until that time, the players have no bargaining position.

 

[Koop]

OK, I gotcha.

Do you know if anyone from the IPT has looked into this type of education? I agree that it would be helpful to those who have never dealt with investments before. Having said that, I still believe that, like any area of life, you will have your smart ones who will invest and make sure they are taken care of for life, and you will have your dummies who will blow it as fast as it comes in. I think the education should be mandated but ultimately it's up to the individuals to make the money last.

 

[Koop]

Mike

Dragon promotions I believe had a tourny with a great rule. NO player that has ever cashed in any open event could enter (or something to that effect). This left it as a total amature tourny. Now if someone started a new tour or the viking tour went that way I believe you would get a lot of new blood into the game or into the tourneys. Nothing againts the great players out there in everyones area but eveyone knows who cash time and time agian in the tours and dont believe that the regular guy with a job can compete. So having some type of true amature tour would be great and if you finish in the top say 5 for the year your graduate out

I like your thinking buddy.

See you tonight.

 

[enzo]

in surfing, they have a whole tour called the WQS, its where the people who arent on the tour compete and if they do well enough in a years time, they make the WCT, or the main tour.

the qualifying tour (WQS) is very successful because as in pool, there are so many good, local surfers.

i truly think it would work to have a whole tour for qualifying in pool, and i think this is the way to go. its stupid to put somebody in tour just because they happen to win one event. there should be a more rigourous process. all i mean by this is lets say Luat gets third in a quilifier and ortmann gets second. ORMAN MAKES IT AND LUAT DOESNT??? silly. but if luat gets 3 thirds, wins one and gets like 10th in a couple, hed be in. sounds better to me.

the key here to my comments is that hopefully the qualifying tour in pool woud make money for the tour.

 

[Dave in Boston]

I would just like a to make a quick point here, WHO on AZ has any type of security in there profession on a day to day basis. I know I dont and I work for one of the largest companys for my particular field in the world. I could lose my job and my "security" tomorrow. Almost 90% of the world works with an at will contract and can be let go at any minute. There are only two secure things in life death and taxes.

 

[Koop]

I would just like a to make a quick point here, WHO on AZ has any type of security in there profession on a day to day basis. I know I dont and I work for one of the largest companys for my particular field in the world. I could lose my job and my "security" tomorrow. Almost 90% of the world works with an at will contract and can be let go at any minute. There are only two secure things in life death and taxes.

No argument there Dave. You know I work for one of the largest financial institutions in the world and the same goes with me.
I think the difference is, we did get some education in the beginning on investments and we also have an easy vehicle for those investments. For those reasons I think, at least the education part would be helpful.

 

[Colin Colenso]

You are wrong. I have never criticized the IPT for NOT providing enough money. I have criticized them for not establishing protection for the players - including you.

I'm not sure what protection you have in mind that the IPT could provide. Even KT has said there is no guarantee beyond 2 years and I think most the players accept that. Perhaps the contracts that we are presently on are not legally binding. I doubt we'd get much anyway if it had to go through the courts. I think most of us are willing to take a risk here. Certainly seems hard to complain when alternative events are compared.

In life, there just isn't protection against a start up enterprise, especially if that start up wants to minimize its starting risks while it develops.

Let me first say that I am not starting a tour, nor am I interested in starting a tour. What I find interesting is players such as yourself not looking at the long term picture. I'm also surprised at some of the fans. If exclusivity comes into the picture you can kiss goodbye straight pool and 9 ball and one pocket. All we will have is 8 ball. If that interests you fine. Just remember that exclusivity would kill Derby City, the US Open, and exclude the greatest players in the world from competing in the WPC. From the ashes of those tours will rise some pissed off individuals that are twice as smart as KT when it comes to running a pool tour. Perhaps this is exactly what these tours will need to finally put their differences aside and band together. Individualy, KT can kick them around, but collectively and cohesively joined as a unified group, he won't win that stare down. They may not have his money, but I'm pretty sure they'll have a business model that makes sense and they will have a way to generate more coming in then they have going out.

If the IPT fails, Kevin Trudeau will vaporize into thin air like he has done in the past. None of his past business ventures have been successful and he has earned his own reputation, yet many get annoyed when this is brought into the conversation.
CLICK THIS LINK

Tell me how many pages you have to go before you read anything about the IPT. I got bored after page 8. If all of that information does not alarm you and cause you to question his ethics and the future of the game of pool, then I apologize for considering and publicly acknowledging you as one of the most intelligent people on this forum.

"Man, I did love this game.
I'd have played for food money.
It was the game, the sounds, the smells.
Did you ever hold a ball
or a glove to your face?"

"Yeah."

"I used to love traveling on the trains
from town to town.
The hotels, brass spittoons in the lobbies...
...brass beds in the rooms.
It was the crowd...
...rising to their feet
when the ball was hit deep.
I'd play for nothing." -Shoeless Joe Jackson, Field of Dreams

I'd like to think I have the long term picture in mind, and while the IPT could rock the boat a lot, I'm confident it could do more good than bad however it turns out.

I'm a bit more optimistic that you, but I don't see the IPT as a certain vehicle to pool heaven, and I'm not suggesting you see it as the opposite.

Certainly I have concerns regarding many links that have been posted regularly here. But I also see many positives in that KT is a guy who knows aspects of marketing, broadcasting and company building that those of us on the fringe can only speculate about.

I know one thing. KT is not a guy who has simply thrown money at this. He has put in thousands of hours trying to put an amazingly big project together piece by piece. Someone who works this hard does not do it expecting to fail.

I'm not giving up on 14.1, 9-ball, 1-pocket etc. If the IPT goes ahead it's quite possible other games could be trialed. Just as golf has the odd format change. Pool may have more variation. But in the beginning, I think 8-ball is an excellent choice to appeal to the masses.

As for DCC, WPC and other events, I doubt they will, and hope they don't dissappear, though it's not impossible. If some such as the WPC does disappear, I think it could only be if the IPT replaces them with something signficantly better. But it's speculative...we guess into the future. The DCC this year had a huge turnout as I understand. I hope that kind of positive externality may be created by the IPT for other events.

I consider you a bright guy, a great contributor and I know you have a ton of experience in this industry. I don't mean to butt heads, but to investigate ideas and opinions. In the end we share the same love and hopes for the game.

Colin