What are "points"

hawkeye

Registered
As I browse through discussions and debates about cue's, I see mention made of the number of "points" a given cue has.

If I understand correctly, this refers to the number of triangle shaped details on the butt section of a cue. Other than being decorative, why is this any indication of the cue's value?
 
Well there are many types of points, most commonly I would say veneers. There can be various numbers, lengths, designs, and materials to make certain points. Some designs are harder to make or the materials (ivory) cost more which could increase the value. I wouldn't say that based on the number of points you could determine the value of a cue. I think what matters is the quality of the cue/points (who made it), after you kinow who made it then from the design you can determine the value.

Eric
 
I rack balls said:
Well there are many types of points, most commonly I would say veneers.
So a cue with no veneers would have no points? This cue has no points??

gilbert-scott-11-fh.jpg
 
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I'm probably wandering into cueland without a clue (BUTTing in, so to speak :p ), but my limited knowledge of cue-making and points can be summed up into: The more points you have is tougher to make and fit all together on the cue seamlessly, AND you look for uniformity of the points - are they sharp and even all the way around the cue?

BTW, 1PRoscoe, that is a beautiful stick. I hope it is the one that may someday dethrone THE QUEEN! Harhar.
 
Yes that cue has points. The ............I cant explain something like that, the redish wood on that cue goes up to an apex, a point. That is a point. A house cue typically has 4 points. I don't know what else to say haha. Oh and veneers are like layered points I guess you can say. They may not be the most common, in fact now that I think about it they are not that common. You can say that the tip of the triangle is a point.

Eric
 
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hawkeye said:
As I browse through discussions and debates about cue's, I see mention made of the number of "points" a given cue has.

If I understand correctly, this refers to the number of triangle shaped details on the butt section of a cue. Other than being decorative, why is this any indication of the cue's value?

Points can be labor intensive for the cue maker.

Some also claim that a cue with spliced points (as opposed to inlayed points) is less likely to warp in the forearm area, so there is a practical reason for their existence beyond decoration.
 
hawkeye said:
As I browse through discussions and debates about cue's, I see mention made of the number of "points" a given cue has.

If I understand correctly, this refers to the number of triangle shaped details on the butt section of a cue. Other than being decorative, why is this any indication of the cue's value?

Good morning Hawkeye, I will try to answer your question.

Points are a part of the design factor built into cues. Some cues have points above the wrap area (were the cue is gripped) in the cues forearm.

Some cues have points have in the cues butt, which is the area below the cues wrap.

Some cues have points both above and below the cues wrap.

There are three basic types of point construction used to day.

1. Decal points: These points are nothing more than a sticker or decal that is applied to the cue before the finish is applied. This form of points are the cheapest and only found on the lowest of quality cues.

2. CNC inlayed points: These points are made using a Computer Generated and Operated Milling machine. These points are designed and implemented with a computer program.

This technique allows for very exacting standards that are exactly repeatable, which would be nearly impossible by hand.

This process is widely used today, and in most cases can be identified by the point design having rounded ends.

The points made using this technique are call inlayed points, because the points are inlayed into pockets in the cues forearm that were cut out by the computer driven milling machine.

3. Spliced / V-cut points: This technique accomplishes the same point design as CNC Inlay, however it is completed by hand, and by an experienced craftsman.

These techniques can be much more wasteful of materials, however this is the age old way points were applied as decorations to cues forearm or butt throughout the history of billiards / pool.

The technique can be identified in most cases by having razor sharp points, that may or may not be perfectly even due to the fact that they are cut and inlayed by hand. CNC inlayed points will always be perfectly even, because the points in the forearm are cut by a computer.

A cues points are the actual wood in the points design. The colored lines around these points are called Veneers and while they make-up the over all design they are actually an addition that is attached to the cues points as decoration.

In most cases V-cut or spliced points on a cue will cost more money than other types of construction depending on materials used during the construction process.

These points are the most time consuming to make, and this form of construction is truly an expression of the finest cue making skills available today.

Please do not be confused by the Asian import cues that are being imported today. These cues are also made with hand made points, but not to the standard or quality that I am outlining above.

The value of points in a cue is directly based on who made the points, the materials used in the points construction, and how finely executed the points are.

Finely executed points will have very tight veneers with no gaps or glue lines. They will also be almost, if not perfectly even, whether there are three, four, six or even eight points on the cue.

There will also be no gap where the point itself touches the first veneer, and where each veneer touches the veneer above it.

This is craftsmanship and for this type of work you are expected to pay a big price.

I hope I have cleared up some of your questions on this matter, I have been brief however, because of the time it would take to fully explain this topic.

You can however, find other reference material if you want more information concerning this subject by doing an on line search using the construction techniques I have outlined above.

Have a great day
 
manwon said:
Good morning Hawkeye, I will try to answer your question.

Points are a part of the design factor built into cues. Some cues have points above the wrap area (were the cue is gripped) in the cues forearm.

Some cues have points have in the cues butt, which is the area below the cues wrap.

Some cues have points both above and below the cues wrap.

There are three basic types of point construction used to day.

1. Decal points:

2. CNC inlayed points:

3. Spliced / V-cut points: This technique accomplishes the same point design as CNC Inlay, however it is completed by hand, and by an experienced craftsman.
Where is "pantographed points"?

I really think you should say:

Decal points
Flat-bottom inlay points
V-groove half-splice
Full Splice

All four can be done by hand, or by CNC.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
Where is "pantographed points"?

I really think you should say:

Decal points
Flat-bottom inlay points
V-groove half-splice
Full Splice

All four can be done by hand, or by CNC.

Fred
Thanks for the input Fred, I am just trying to keep it simple. I am also trying to give the poster a reference point to research.

Have great Day

Craig
 
manwon said:
3. Spliced / V-cut points: This technique accomplishes the same point design as CNC Inlay, however it is completed by hand, and by an experienced craftsman.

These techniques can be much more wasteful of materials, however this is the age old way points were applied as decorations to cues forearm or butt throughout the history of billiards / pool.

The technique can be identified in most cases by having razor sharp points, that may or may not be perfectly even due to the fact that they are cut and inlayed by hand. CNC inlayed points will always be perfectly even, because the points in the forearm are cut by a computer.

A cues points are the actual wood in the points design. The colored lines around these points are called Veneers and while they make-up the over all design they are actually an addition that is attached to the cues points as decoration.

In most cases V-cut or spliced points on a cue will cost more money than other types of construction depending on materials used during the construction process.

These points are the most time consuming to make, and this form of construction is truly an expression of the finest cue making skills available today.


The value of points in a cue is directly based on who made the points, the materials used in the points construction, and how finely executed the points are.

Finely executed points will have very tight veneers with no gaps or glue lines. They will also be almost, if not perfectly even, whether there are three, four, six or even eight points on the cue.

There will also be no gap where the point itself touches the first veneer, and where each veneer touches the veneer above it.

This is craftsmanship and for this type of work you are expected to pay a big price.

Veneered points are "attached" to points - a construction method. However, several cuemakers build "recut" or "remachined" points. It is a method of cutting another smaller point into a point. This can be done many times with smaller and smaller points each time. It looks the same as veneered points but a close look shows that the recut points are usually a hardwood and not a dyed wood (like most "veneers"). And these points should be even, too.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
 
Jack Madden said:
Veneered points are "attached" to points - a construction method. However, several cuemakers build "recut" or "remachined" points. It is a method of cutting another smaller point into a point. This can be done many times with smaller and smaller points each time. It looks the same as veneered points but a close look shows that the recut points are usually a hardwood and not a dyed wood (like most "veneers"). And these points should be even, too.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

The pic below is a cue, pre-assembly. You see the 'butt' section to the right, and the 'forearm' to the left. There are 4 rosewood 'points' into a curly maple 'nose'.
These 'points' are an example of the latter type Jack Madden mentions in his post above. Technically, because of the way these 'points' and 'veeners' (the border colors surrounding the 'points') were constructed, this would be a 16 'point' cue. Additionally, they are all perfectly even with one another, and there are NO glue lines or seams...basically a 'point', within a 'point', within a 'point', within a 'point'. :eek: :D

Hope this helps!:)

Lisa
 

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Jack Madden said:
Veneered points are "attached" to points - a construction method. However, several cuemakers build "recut" or "remachined" points. It is a method of cutting another smaller point into a point. This can be done many times with smaller and smaller points each time. It looks the same as veneered points but a close look shows that the recut points are usually a hardwood and not a dyed wood (like most "veneers"). And these points should be even, too.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com

Thanks for the input Jack, I am sure that this poster is getting more information than they can digest in one bite.

Have a great night Jack, and thanks again!!!!!!

Craig
 
ridewiththewind said:
The pic below is a cue, pre-assembly. You see the 'butt' section to the right, and the 'forearm' to the left. There are 4 rosewood 'points' into a curly maple 'nose'.
These 'points' are an example of the latter type Jack Madden mentions in his post above. Technically, because of the way these 'points' and 'veeners' (the border colors surrounding the 'points') were constructed, this would be a 16 'point' cue. Additionally, they are all perfectly even with one another, and there are NO glue lines or seams...basically a 'point', within a 'point', within a 'point', within a 'point'. :eek: :D

Hope this helps!:)

Lisa

Hello Lisa, you kinda have that wrong that is a four point cue, not a sixteen point cue.

The Veneers around those points are veneers not points. The points are the hardwood center, or in this case Rose wood. I think that you are confusing the point of what Jack said.

If you are uncertain ask Jack.

Have a nice night.

Craig
 
manwon said:
Hello Lisa, you kinda have that wrong that is a four point cue, not a sixteen point cue.

The Veneers around those points are veneers not points. The points are the hardwood center, or in this case Rose wood. I think that you are confusing the point of what Jack said.

If you are uncertain ask Jack.

Have a nice night.

Craig

Actually, they aren't really veneers as they are one piece milled hardwoods. So indeed they could be considered points, although I personally don't count them as points...lol.
 
zeeder said:
Actually, they aren't really veneers as they are one piece milled hardwoods. So indeed they could be considered points, although I personally don't count them as points...lol.

We both know that technically whether the material around the true point is a milled one piece hardwood or a stained milled solid stripe of Poplar wood they are still veneers not points.

Take a Brunswick Titlist, the colors around the point are not considered by anyone as points only veneers. The point is the same as the hardwood material in the butt below the points.

I think we both see the same picture and even agree on the subject, although this subject can be very subjective and is quite misunderstood.

Have a nice night

Craig
 
manwon said:
Hello Lisa, you kinda have that wrong that is a four point cue, not a sixteen point cue.

The Veneers around those points are veneers not points. The points are the hardwood center, or in this case Rose wood. I think that you are confusing the point of what Jack said.

If you are uncertain ask Jack.

Have a nice night.

Craig
If they're recuts, not veneers, then some cuemakers will count each cut as a point. Not that I condone such behavior.

Fred
 
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manwon said:
Thanks for the input Fred, I am just trying to keep it simple. I am also trying to give the poster a reference point to research.
Simple is fine. But, I won't let the CNC misconception be passed on to to a newbie (and perpetuate the misconception) if I can help it. IMO, "simple" shouldn't have included any reference to CNC at all.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
If they're recuts, not veneers, then some cuemakers will count each cut as a point. Not that I condone such behavior.

Fred

Thanks Fred and Zeeder. Manwon, and this particular cuemaker doesn't count them as 'points' either...this is a 4 point cue, and that is how it was ordered. I tried to explain it in such a way as that the original poster could 'visualize' the way in which this particular style of 'point' is constructed, so that he could better appreciate why this is a more time-consuming, and thus more costly, 'forearm' to build.

And a Titlist isn't built the same way.....it is a 'full-splice', however, the 'veneers' are not, they are of the type most commonly done in cues; they have seams, and possibly glue lines.

I am actually considering, in a few years time, of having my next cue built as a 'full splice' with recut, bridged points. It should make for an extremely stable and solid cue.:D

Lisa
 
Cornerman said:
Simple is fine. But, I won't let the CNC misconception be passed on to to a newbie (and perpetuate the misconception) if I can help it. IMO, "simple" shouldn't have included any reference to CNC at all.

Fred

Thanks again for your input, but please explain what your meaning of the CNC misconception is?

Thanks in advance

Craig
 
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