What are the "different strokes that you need to develop," per Billy Incardona?

[cuetechasaurus]

Billy, I'm quite sure that's not what Patrick is saying.

I believe he's saying that you get the same squirt at two tips of english and a certain speed whether you got there by an SPFF stroke, a punch stroke, or as part of the final step in an eastern European folk dance.

If that's what Patrick Johnson is trying to say, he is absoloutely wrong (no offense intended).

You can hit the same spot on the cueball with your tip from many different angles. Imagine a straight stroke that is perfectly lined up to the object ball's contact point, hitting the cueball with one tip of right-hand english.

Now imagine a straight stroke that is a couple of degrees off from the correct line to the object ball's contact point. It can hit the cueball in the same spot as the straight stroke that was on the right line, but from a different angle. You can still pocket the object ball by swerving your stroke, but the amount of squirt you are going to get is going to vary alot, depending on angle your cue is striking the cueball from.

In fact, you can elevate your cue and still hit that same spot, or you can twist your cue drastically and still hit that same spot. All from different angles. There is no way in hell that you are going to get the same amount of squirt every time. That's pure logic.

 

[unknownpro]

I liked the finite way you described adjusting for squirt. If you don't mind, what is the type of shaft, taper and size of shaft that you play with?

Thanks,
JoeyA

It doesn't matter. I've gone from one extreme to the other and tried low deflection shafts. Now I play with a thin light cue, but I had great results with the heaviest stick (21.5oz) and thickest shaft (14mm)on the tour. Actually it's the same shaft, but cut down. The adjustment in my mind is minimal, at least as far as aim is concerned. It's the elimination of curve that is essential. Either by hitting hard enough to eliminate it, or hitting soft enough that curve tries to happen instantly - but cannot. In the first case you must hit hard enough to eliminate the curve. In the second, you hit slowly enough that the ball tries to curve while it's still on your tip but you hold it on line by following through to your contact point.

Like someone said before on this thread, pool is hard. Any system is an approximation. But I believe there definitely is a point when you switch from no english to side english where it's easier (drastically easier) to use more english and aim the edge of the cueball than to use less and try and aim the center of a curving cueball.

(that Claude Bernatchez is kinda hard to beat, lol. Buddy too. )
unknownpro

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

haha

I was thinking of something like "drift", but "squerve" is much, much better. Not that anyone will listen to me, but I think I'll try to use it whenever possible. Great idea!

Jim

I like "squerve" too but what's wrong with masse?

 

[Cuebacca]

First players need to know what swerve is, then you can introduce SQUERVE: Squirt + Swerve.

LMAO! Not to stray off topic, but I would like to propose an additional term to include the effects of throw: Squirt + Swerve + Throw = Squerve + Throw = SQUERVO

 

[Jal]

I think the reduction in speed (from rolling ball in to rolling ball out) is closer to 53%. This means that a cue ball loses about almost 75% of its energy in the bounce-off-the-cushion process. For details see the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-12.pdf

It's an interesting article, as always, and a pretty ingenius way of measuring cushion efficiency.

As a matter of luck perhaps, that 53% figure is about what the program uses, in effect. It assumes a 75% immediate rebound speed, which when multiplied by 5/7'ths (transition to natural roll), comes out to 53.6%. Actually, if the ball has some residual topspin which then becomes backspin in the rebound direction, the figure works out to something less than this depending on how much topspin remains.

The cushion treatment doesn't account for bed friction during impact as far as the speed of the ball is concerned. But since the incoming ball has topsin, bed friction should drive the ball a little bit deeper into the cushion on the way in, but oppose it's motion on the way out, so some degree of mutual cancellation takes place. (I wasn't shooting for extreme accuracy here.) It does include bed friction in predicting the change in spin...hopefully with some measure of realism?

Jim

 

[Jal]

I like "squerve" too but what's wrong with masse?

That's three votes in favor - a grass roots movement may be welling up here. "Masse" only covers the swerve part, not the squirt.

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're confusing some things. Changing where your stick is pointing is changing your line of aim. Tip offset and squirt are measured relative to your line of aim - if I offset my tip halfway to the outside edge of the cue ball, I have maximum offset and will get maximum squirt; but if I then change my line of aim (angle of my stick) so that I'm still hitting that point but once again aiming through the center of the cue ball, then I have zero offset and will get zero squirt.

So to me "the same amount of tip offset" by definition means *without* changing the stick angle. I think that's the only thing it can logically mean.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If that's what Patrick Johnson is trying to say, he is absoloutely wrong (no offense intended).

You can hit the same spot on the cueball with your tip from many different angles. Imagine a straight stroke that is perfectly lined up to the object ball's contact point, hitting the cueball with one tip of right-hand english.

Now imagine a straight stroke that is a couple of degrees off from the correct line to the object ball's contact point. It can hit the cueball in the same spot as the straight stroke that was on the right line, but from a different angle. You can still pocket the object ball by swerving your stroke, but the amount of squirt you are going to get is going to vary alot, depending on angle your cue is striking the cueball from.

In fact, you can elevate your cue and still hit that same spot, or you can twist your cue drastically and still hit that same spot. All from different angles. There is no way in hell that you are going to get the same amount of squirt every time. That's pure logic.

You're confusing some things. Changing where your stick is pointing is changing your line of aim. Tip offset and squirt are measured relative to your line of aim - if I offset my tip halfway to the outside edge of the cue ball, I have maximum offset and will get maximum squirt; but if I then change my line of aim (angle of my stick) so that I'm still hitting that point but once again aiming through the center of the cue ball, then I have zero offset and will get zero squirt.

So to me "the same amount of tip offset" by definition means *without* changing the stick angle. I think that's the only thing it can logically mean.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

LMAO! Not to stray off topic, but I would like to propose an additional term to include the effects of throw: Squirt + Swerve + Throw = Squerve + Throw = SQUERVO

Everyone will want to know if Squervo is served on the rocks or straight up. LOL
JoeyA

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Everyone will want to know if Squervo is served on the rocks or straight up. LOL
JoeyA

Or with "training wheels."

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Tip offset and squirt are measured relative to your line of aim ...

Since I like to pick nits.... I think that should be "relative to the major axis of the cue stick at the instant it contacts the cue ball." Those who use aim and swoop for their squerve compensation have a line of aim that passes through the centers of the cue ball and the ghost ball but a "hit line" that is at an angle and at an offset to their position at address.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think that should be "relative to the major axis of the cue stick at the instant it contacts the cue ball."

Or for those whose eyes glaze over at the mention of things like 'major axis' (which sometimes includes me), "relative to where the stick is pointing when it hits the cue ball".

pj
chgo

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

May I Have Another (on JoeyA. of course)

Everyone will want to know if Squervo is served on the rocks or straight up. LOL
JoeyA

I had mine with salt and a lemon wedge.
Doug
( BURP ! excuuuuuuuuuse ME )

 

[JoeyA]

Squervo- The Famous Pool Drink

I had mine with salt and a lemon wedge.
Doug
( BURP ! excuuuuuuuuuse ME )

Always on JoeyA. What is it with you? When are you going to loosen up those purse strings? I'll have one also.

BTW, what are the ingredients to a SQUERVO drink BESIDEs Jose Quervo Tequila? It has to be strong enough to make you curl up like a curly fry.
JoeyA

 

[cuetechasaurus]

You're confusing some things. Changing where your stick is pointing is changing your line of aim. Tip offset and squirt are measured relative to your line of aim - if I offset my tip halfway to the outside edge of the cue ball, I have maximum offset and will get maximum squirt; but if I then change my line of aim (angle of my stick) so that I'm still hitting that point but once again aiming through the center of the cue ball, then I have zero offset and will get zero squirt.

So to me "the same amount of tip offset" by definition means *without* changing the stick angle. I think that's the only thing it can logically mean.

pj
chgo

Lets say I want to hit the cueball with a tip of right english. I line up perfectly and use exactly one tip of right english, and stroke straight thru the cueball. After that I set the shot up the exact same way, elevate my cue, and hit the cueball in the exact same spot I did with the level cue, is the squirt going to be the same?

Or what about if my cue strikes the cueball in a glancing motion, rather than going straight thru it. It is still possible to send the cueball in the exact same direction, isn't it?

And yes you are right about me mixing things up, I misinterpreted 'squirt', but I am wondering about what you are actually talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, what about if you lengthen or shorten your bridge, doesn't that change the pivot point? That part I'm not too sure about, but I would imagine it does, and would change the amount of squirt, because if you have a firm closed bridge, depending on where your bridge is on the cue, doesn't that cause the amount of bend in your shaft to differ?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I set the shot up the exact same way, elevate my cue, and hit the cueball in the exact same spot I did with the level cue, is the squirt going to be the same?

Yes, the squirt will be the same at the instant you hit the cue ball, but your elevated cue will cause the cue ball to immediately curve back in the opposite direction in a "mini masse" that we call swerve. Since your cue is always elevated at least a little bit (because the butt has to clear the rail on most shots), there's always at least a little bit of swerve whenever you use sidespin, and it always cancels some or all of the squirt. That's why somebody suggested that we use the term "squerve" (which isn't a brand new term, by the way - I think I coined it as "squirve" a year or two ago on RSB).

what about if my cue strikes the cueball in a glancing motion, rather than going straight thru it

If you don't miscue that's just stroking in a different direction, which is what you always do in order to adjust your aim to compensate for squirve. It's typical.

what about if you lengthen or shorten your bridge, doesn't that change the pivot point? ... if you have a firm closed bridge, depending on where your bridge is on the cue, doesn't that cause the amount of bend in your shaft to differ?

The pivot point is a fixed point on your cue; it doesn't change. Your shaft doesn't bend at the place your bridge hand holds it, and changing your bridge length (its distance from the tip) has no effect on where it does bend. Anyway, squirt has nothing to do with where (or how much) your shaft bends.

pj
chgo

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

pit nicker

Maybe I'm confused too but wasn't this a thread about
using different strokes and not using different angles and speeds?

To me, a different stroke would mean that I'm not hitting straight
through my aim line, no matter what angle, amount of english, or
how hard. I'm still swinging the stick in a straight line and that's
the only stroke I know so far. Sorry if this seems silly, I've only
been playing a couple years.

The most interesting responses were regarding freezing time
at the moment of impact to change an otherwise predictable
reaction.

cOOp

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm still swinging the stick in a straight line and that's
the only stroke I know so far.

I think that's the only stroke there is (that's why we're talking about all these other things). All you have to do now is perfect it.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

somebody suggested that we use the term "squerve" (which isn't a brand new term, by the way - I think I coined it as "squirve" a year or two ago on RSB)

Yow. It's (I'm) older than I thought. Here's the first instance I can find, from FIVE years ago. The term has popped up several times since then.

pj
chgo

Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
From: Patrick Johnson <patrick.john...@attbi.com>
Wed, Aug 14 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Flat Laminate shaft ( ex black dot) Vs Radial Laminate ( ex 314 )

> ... not everyone can do these tests


Right. It tests the players, not the physics. I'd say the main thing it tests is a player's ability to override the subconscious urge to correct for
squirve(TM), and I'm certain that a vast majority fail. Those who you think can't do the test are probably the ones who really can.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 

[JoeyA]

SQUERVE -Coined by Joey Aguzin - August 22, 2007

Yow. It's (I'm) older than I thought. Here's the first instance I can find, from FIVE years ago. The term has popped up several times since then.

pj
chgo

Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
From: Patrick Johnson <patrick.john...@attbi.com>
Wed, Aug 14 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Flat Laminate shaft ( ex black dot) Vs Radial Laminate ( ex 314 )

> ... not everyone can do these tests

It tests the players, not the physics. I'd say the main thing it tests is a player's ability to override the subconscious urge to correct for
squirve(TM), and I'm certain that a vast majority fail. Those who you think can't do the test are probably the ones who really can.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick your choice for the spelling of the word is practically unspeakable. Squerve is more pronounceable and far more understandable.

Defintion of squerve:
SQUERVE: A word used in the billiard world to describe two phenomenas (squirt & swerve) that individually affect the path of the cue ball when put into motion by striking the cue ball with side-spin, also known as "English".

Once Bob Jewett used "squerve" in a sentence related to pool, it is like a new word being introduced by Merriam-Webster to the world. And now many people are using the word squerve which I coined, so as more people use this word SQUERVE, credit can only be given to one individual and that is me Joey Aguzin. Before long, Merriam-Webster will recognize the use of this word and it will be credited to me. Oh, my oh my! I can only wonder what honor the world might bestow on me for my contribution.
JoeyA