What beginner pool tip do you wish you learned sooner?

Patrick Johnson said:
What did I miss? Why does the shoulder have to move?

pj
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It doesn't. You can have perfectly executed strokes without utilizing that particular move.

That said, when players simply try to move as efficiently as they can and have the most effortless feel to their stroke, that littke bit of movement comes into play...often completely subconsciously Some players (like the greats I listed earlier) lean more heavily on that particular power source and develop techniques with rather large moves. You don't have to. There are many ways. There are snooker players with seemingly spring loaded beautiful strokes who lean into a completely different power source and don't utilize the one the elbow bobbers use at all. Both are fully in line with natural movement and neither is primarily contraction driven.

Isolating a muscle and driving the stroke with one conscious contraction is not at all how we are designed to move and wired for motor control. And as I said before, even if that is your intention your body probably won't let you suck that bad for too long before it finds a way to help you move more like you were designed to.
 
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WobblyStroke said:
You misunderstood my answer. By "vertabrate movement," i was referring to how movement works in all vertabrate animals, not the bones of the spine.

That little elbow ossilation is a tell tale sign that the player is moving naturally... more in line with how vertabrates evolved to move. And yes, it is more efficient. Not only does it feel more effortless, but it literally uses fewer calories. I'm sure you could see how saving calories and needing less food would act as a driver behind this evolutionary development.

As I said, coordinated multi joint movements and force production are complex. You can take entire university level courses on the topic and not cover it all. So yes, reducing a multi joint movement down to muscle A back, muscle B forward is laughably over simplifying it.

"Leave stroking to the subconscious" is the best we got right now. Maybe one day someone will explain the details to yall in a book ;)
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can i get a signed copy....:giggle:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Then I assume that's true for the elbow too...? If so, what's the visible difference between my pendulum stroke and your stroke?

pj
chgo
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Not likely if the intention is to isolate elbow flexors for reasons beat to death at this point.

As far as visible differenves between our strokes, I don't know, I've never seen yours. Mine flows like water. Gonna guess yours doesn't :p.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
My only intention has been to advocate a fixed elbow pendulum stroke. Haven't heard anything yet that discredits that.

pj
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I'm not trying to discredit that. What I"m saying is that those all time great players with bobbing elbows, have all time great strokes. People who get married to the idea of a fixed elbow have been discreditting them by claiming their strokes are flawed and they've overcome those flaws through thousands of hours of practice. This is patently absurd. Mika abandonned his snooker background for this technique. Clearly he thought it was better. I agree with him.
 
I would like to get warned whom to listen when get advice. So many early years are destroyed by bad advice that beginner don´t know that is not good advice.
So my advice would be use your own head... listen tips you get and what works use it and what not trash it.
 
Grew up playing straight pool....used to get stuck on the pack after the side and bottom rack break shots...took quite a while before I figured out that I needed to draw and/or follow on the shot to get the cue ball out of the way and close to the center of the table...a long time.
 
Poolmanis said:
I would like to get warned whom to listen when get advice. So many early years are destroyed by bad advice that beginner don´t know that is not good advice.
So my advice would be use your own head... listen tips you get and what works use it and what not trash it.
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Even if the tip works for them it may not for u. There's a great quote on this in golf....

"99% of the tips in golf magazine are legit. The problem is that 70% of them ptobably don't apply to you"

There aren't quite as many different types of strokes in pool as in golf but if a beginner asks for tips from a guy with a piston stroke, a pendulum stroke, and flowy Filipino, the tips may not be compatible with him or one another.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So keeping my elbow still is OK, but misnaming the muscles used hurts me?

pj
chgo
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Naming any single muscle hurts you.

Probably the biggest drawback of a great mechanical idea like a fixed elbow is that by hardcore adhering to it, players lock themselves out of the possibility for an effortless reliable stroke and just hone in on relying solely on elbow flexors.

If they let their arm work as it does in every other athletic endeavor, some slight elbow movement is very likely to creep in, at least in the backswing, if not the actual forward stroke.

Luckily, not every pendulum stroke instructor is so strictly tied to the idea of a fixed elbow that they won't allow for a touch of movement in warmup strokes/backswing.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
So a pendulum stroke is not OK? And “naming any muscle”?

Sorry, man, but I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say. Maybe another topic/thread someday…

pj
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It's simple. The mechanics of a stable elbow from transition to delivery is fantastic.

Attempting to drive that stroke with elvow flexors in isolation is terrible.

I never expressed issue with the mechanics. Just the awful force production advice. Take, "leave stroking to the subconscious" everyday and twice on sunday. Maybe don't be too upset if your elbow ossilates a quarter of an inch as a result.
 
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WobblyStroke said:
It's simple. The mechanics of a stable elbow from transition to delivery is fantastic.

Attempting to drive that stroke with elvow flexors in isolation is terrible.

I never expressed issue with the mechanics. Just the awful force production advice. Take, "leave stroking to the subconscious" everyday and twice on sunday. Maybe don't be too upset if your elbow ossilates a quarter of an inch as a result.
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What muscle(s) besides "elbow flexors" do you think are needed? "Shoulder flexors"?

I agree that using the shoulder can add a little to the stroke speed (like a small version of SVB's break stroke), but I don't think the small amount makes up for the added complexity of the stroke (especially for less experienced players).

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
What muscle(s) besides "elbow flexors" do you think are needed? "Shoulder flexors"?

I agree that using the shoulder can add a little to the stroke speed (like a small version of SVB's break stroke), but I don't think the small amount makes up for the added complexity of the stroke (especially for less experienced players).

pj
chgo
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You were right before... another thread, another time.
 
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