What can you do about damaged subrails?

[swest]

Greetings,

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that you had come into possession of a used pool table where the subrails looked like those in these images. What would, or could, you do about it? Is it possible to saw away the subrail from the rail top and glue on a new subrail?

Thanks.

- s.west

p.s. Is this an unusual occurrence? That is, where the pocket ears have broken down, or torn off, part of the subrail?

p.p.s. These pictures may be a little confusing. You are looking at the ends two different bundles of rails and blinds...

 

[Donny Wessels]

good question, I would like to know how to fix these also. To me this looks like a table that has seen better day and should be put to rest.

 

[swest]

good question, I would like to know how to fix these also. To me this looks like a table that has seen better day and should be put to rest.

Well the bed and slate are both massive, and in fine condition; so even if the entire rail had to be replaced, it would probably be worth the trouble. I wouldn't want to lose the rail-cap if it was salvageable, however.

I'm also trying to figure out how this damage even occurred.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yes, the rails are fixable, but involves a lot of work. After digging out all the staples, nails, ect...I'd run the rails through my planner and remove the bottom half of the rails first. Then plug the pocket iron holes with dowels. Then replace the bottom half of the rails with new wood, shaped like the old. It's a lot of work, but if the tables worth it, I'd start there.

Glen

 

[Dartman]

I'm also trying to figure out how this damage even occurred.

Now my eyesight isn't very good at 5am but it looks like they possibly couldn't remove the pocket iron retaining bolt and forced the pocket off the rail. The break looks the same in each of the pics. JMO.

Yo Glen - are you going to be at Ivans next week?

 

[realkingcobra]

Now my eyesight isn't very good at 5am but it looks like they possibly couldn't remove the pocket iron retaining bolt and forced the pocket off the rail. The break looks the same in each of the pics. JMO.

Yo Glen - are you going to be at Ivans next week?

I'm in Washington State right now, just delivered 3 Diamond 7ft ProAm's to Vancouver, Canada. Heading back to Vegas Saturday, have some more deliveries to Montana, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and a Gabriels Billiards table to take to Mike Massey's house in Salt Lake, then I'm heading back east, back to the Diamond factory. I'm hoping to be up to Simonis within the next 14 to 21 days to get started on those DVD's, somewhere in there I'll get some sleep...LMAO

Glen

 

[Club Billiards]

Most times I've seen this it's because there's not much wood there to begin with and someone has over-tightened the pocket bolts when installing them in the rails. Pretty common on those types of rails. Looks like an AMF PlayMaster furniture line table to me. Unfortunately, AMF went out of business last May, so ordering replacement rails may be impossible. There is however a retailer in my area that still has some tables in stock and may be able to give you a deal on something if he's still got similar ones. Try Bob Burns at Billiards Direct in Cincinnati, Ohio. You can reach him at (937)829-3280. He dealt in AMF tables for 20 years. If that is what these rails are, if you know what model table it is, that will help him find something for you. Tell him Josh sent ya. Hope this info helps!

 

[Club Billiards]

I'm in Washington State right now, just delivered 3 Diamond 7ft ProAm's to Vancouver, Canada. Heading back to Vegas Saturday, have some more deliveries to Montana, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and a Gabriels Billiards table to take to Mike Massey's house in Salt Lake, then I'm heading back east, back to the Diamond factory. I'm hoping to be up to Simonis within the next 14 to 21 days to get started on those DVD's, somewhere in there I'll get some sleep...LMAO

Glen

Doesn't sound like you will, but if you get around southern Ohio, look me up. I'd love to compare notes. Looks from some of your posts like you've been setting up tables for a long time. I've been at it for 7 years full time, but I could always use more knowledge.

 

[TheTablePro]

In a pool room I managed back in the early 80's, we had 10 Global antique style tables that were notorious for the same problem. In our case, it was from players getting ticked off and smacking the pocket (always the corner pockets) which of course after a few blows would break it down. Such abuse!

Our solution was to first take measurements of the pocket iron hole location and the pocket bolt hole and counter sink from the end of the rail. We routed out a 6" section of the subrail, cut a new piece of poplar as close to size as we could get and glued & clamped it in place. After about 24 hours we sanded it to match the subrail and cut new holes we had taken measurements from. It worked like a champ but ,only cost us time & patience and not an arm and a leg.

Hope that gives you an idea anyway.

Robin

 

[swest]

In a pool room I managed back in the early 80's, we had 10 Global antique style tables that were notorious for the same problem. In our case, it was from players getting ticked off and smacking the pocket (always the corner pockets) which of course after a few blows would break it down. Such abuse!

Our solution was to first take measurements of the pocket iron hole location and the pocket bolt hole and counter sink from the end of the rail. We routed out a 6" section of the subrail, cut a new piece of poplar as close to size as we could get and glued & clamped it in place. After about 24 hours we sanded it to match the subrail and cut new holes we had taken measurements from. It worked like a champ but ,only cost us time & patience and not an arm and a leg.

Hope that gives you an idea anyway.

Robin

Good answer.

Thanks for the responses.

b.t.w. these rails are from a Connelly. A replacement rail set from Connelly is fairly reasonably priced, so I may, or may not, fix these...

 

[swest]

New question

Ok, new question: What does the common wisdom say to do about rails (or even slate framing) that have been recovered so many times that the integrity of the wood is beginning to fail (due to excessive staplings)?

It looks like one possible answer, at least for the rails, would be to treat them with a product like LiquidWood, or WoodEpox(http://aloghomestore.com/epoxy.shtml).

Other thoughts? Is there a point after which you simply must replace the rails?

Thanks.

- s.west

 

[swest]

And, while we're on this subject, why aren't the rails made so that the surface that is being stapled can be replaced after some number of re-coverings? It could be a 3/4" x 1/2" strip that could be dadoed out (or even unscrewed) and replaced periodically. It could even be made of a different material than the rest of the rail...

This idea would also apply to the slate framing. Just make the outside 1/2" be a replaceable strip.

There must be a reason this isn't done, but I can't think of one.

p.s. I suppose that this could be done even if the rail isn't purposefully designed that way... just put it on the ol' table saw and cut out and replace the deteriorated portion. mmm... maybe that's what I'll do.

See the dotted portion in the following picture. That's the portion I'm talking about cutting out and replacing.

 

[realkingcobra]

I like it when you ask questions, then answer them correctly...

Glen

 

[swest]

I like it when you ask questions, then answer them correctly...

Glen

I did? What'd I say? [hastily moves the scroll bar up...]

I hope you mean the part about the table saw, because that seems to make the most sense to me... although the liquid wood should certainly help.

But what about the other question: Why aren't rails/tables constructed with this in mind in the first place? Or are there some manufacturers that do include those features?

Thanks.

 

[Donny Wessels]

And, while we're on this subject, why aren't the rails made so that the surface that is being stapled can be replaced after some number of re-coverings? It could be a 3/4" x 1/2" strip that could be dadoed out (or even unscrewed) and replaced periodically. It could even be made of a different material than the rest of the rail...

This idea would also apply to the slate framing. Just make the outside 1/2" be a replaceable strip.

There must be a reason this isn't done, but I can't think of one.

p.s. I suppose that this could be done even if the rail isn't purposefully designed that way... just put it on the ol' table saw and cut out and replace the deteriorated portion. mmm... maybe that's what I'll do.

See the dotted portion in the following picture. That's the portion I'm talking about cutting out and replacing.

Great post. I don't have a good answer for this. But I do proactive approach to avoid this situation. I use a small gauge staple that is 1/4" deep. After recovering the table about ten times or whenever I can use a deeper staple. I use the same approach with my slate screw start short and go longer when needed.


-Sundown

 

[realkingcobra]

I did? What'd I say? [hastily moves the scroll bar up...]

I hope you mean the part about the table saw, because that seems to make the most sense to me... although the liquid wood should certainly help.

But what about the other question: Why aren't rails/tables constructed with this in mind in the first place? Or are there some manufacturers that do include those features?

Thanks.

The lifetime of the rails is not, and never has been of a major concern to table manufactures. The additional cost of adding a stapling strip to the rails really wouldn't be worth it to a manufacture to incorporate into the design of the rails as they're being milled. In most cases, it's not how many times the rails have been recovered that tears them up, it's more along the lines of the technicians that have done the work on the rails in the past that can damage them so badly. Manufactures can't add an additional cost to the rail production, for something that more than likely won't come up for the next 15 to 20 years. If you think the backer board on your slates are bad, wait until you see the backer boards made of MDF particle board after they've been recovered about 6 or 7 times...LMAO In the efforts to save a little money, the manufactures that are doing this are creating a nightmare down the road for anyone that has a slate with MDF on the bottom side in a commercial environment

Glen

 

[Club Billiards]

If you think the backer board on your slates are bad, wait until you see the backer boards made of MDF particle board after they've been recovered about 6 or 7 times
Glen

I actually prefer the MDF, or whatever Olhausen is using for their slate liner. It seems to take staples very well, and doesn't splinter and disentigrate like the true wood backing like Top-Lines and Nationals and some other tables used. I've seen many pieces of slate with a wood backing that has warped and chipped the slate away with it.

 

[Dartman]

And, while we're on this subject, why aren't the rails made so that the surface that is being stapled can be replaced after some number of re-coverings? It could be a 3/4" x 1/2" strip that could be dadoed out (or even unscrewed) and replaced periodically. It could even be made of a different material than the rest of the rail...This idea would also apply to the slate framing. Just make the outside 1/2" be a replaceable strip.There must be a reason this isn't done, but I can't think of one.p.s. I suppose that this could be done even if the rail isn't purposefully designed that way... just put it on the ol' table saw and cut out and replace the deteriorated portion. mmm... maybe that's what I'll do.See the dotted portion in the following picture. That's the portion I'm talking about cutting out and replacing.

Good (niche) business idea for the rails. Start a web page and offer this service.
Use glue when you have termited slate liners.